Dana DeCosta, from Vectrix told me that the New Vectrix is on course for a successful comeback in 2011.
- Enough sales orders have been secured to support manufacturing throughout the new year,
- Manufacture of the VX-2 will resume, in China,
- Manufacture of the VX-3, and VX-1 will resume in New Bedford, Massachusetts,
- The lithium-ion battery pack will be available as an upgrade for current VX-1 owners, BUT, it will be expensive/extensive upgrade, owners will be encouraged to upgrade to a new VX-1 that was designed around the new battery technology,
- They are currently working on the website to reflect the new plans.
Great news for the new year!
It sounds like typical sales talk to me.
I will need a lot of convincing that Vectrix have got it right this time. So far, they have totally failed to support the 'old' VX1. and their technology / technical skill levels appear to me to be 'deficient'. With yet another new technology to master, will they get it right this time? Will they support the new product better than the last fiasco? Will information be made available for customers to be in a position to 'work' on any problems themselves? Or are the new customers going to be treated in the same old way which is "you might have bought and paid for the scooter, but the service information is all ours (Vectrix's) and NO you can't have any service or repair or maintenance information and certainly not any software information"?
O.K. I might just be mis-judging them. But our experience so far suggests that customers for the 'new Vecxtrix VX1' are unlikely to be treated any better than we have been so far. Yes, people like Steve Scott and Doug Townley have been more than helpful, well above the call of duty, but they too are kept in the dark on many issues.
Dana DeCosta has had ample opportunity to contact me (I have e-mailed him without response) concerning the re-arranging of the Charger programme. Together, we could have made fast progress with improvements and these changes could have been distributed as free upgrades BUT, you know what has happened just as I do. NOTHING. So much for 'customer service'.
Here is another request, Dana. Contact me, I will work for nothing on the improvements. All I need is access to information and you could make that available.
Good luck to those who line up for the New Vectrix machines, but if I were amongst them, I would be insistent on being supplied with all manner of information / service data / software etc. and I would point out clearly without this information there will be NO SALE.
Oh, if I sound a little sceptical it may just be because, as well as buying the scooter, I tried to support the company by buying around £5000 worth of Vectrix shares. I think that Vectrix owes me something.
Best of luck folks.
The Laird
(The impossible we do at once, miracles take a little longer)
I'm sorry that you've a bad experience. I've had a mixed experience, but always felt that, as an early adopter, ups and downs were to be expected and risk was inevitable. I have nearly 9,000 miles on my '07 VX-1, and I still commute to work every day on it. Despite paying over $7K for the bike (after tax incentives) I already feel that I've got my money's worth.
When I first bought it the dealer maintained/repaired it for me at no cost (under warranty). When Vectrix went bankrupt I didn't expect any further services, but when I had a problem last summer Dana DeCosta drove from Massachusetts to California to fix it - at no cost to me. He also gave me complete access to the service manual (which is now posted here on 'V is for Voltage').
Until some OEM companies have EV motorcycles at the local dealer (Whats up with Honda? Yamaha? Suzuki? Harley??) I think we have to give credit to a start-up company with global aspirations for their pioneering work. Despite significant problems and setbacks, they've manufactured a product that does what it claims: flies on the freeway, powered by nothing but electrons.
Having said that, Vectrix is certainly aware of what Brammo and others are doing. The competition is on and the future is bright! (Call me an optimist...)
Well, an exchange of the old Vectrix using it as a natural rabat to buy a new one? I tried to sell my Vectrix this spring when I had repaierd it. Unfortunately if I would sell it to a dealer he would pay me 4000 Euro (for a 1,5 year old scooter with ~1500 km on the clock, which I buyed for 9000 Euro. Selling it private would bring 5000 Euro if I where extreemly lucky... I´m aware what Vectrix will pay for an old VX1? maybe 3000 Euro rabat for a Lithium which will cost 10000 Euro or more?
By the way I was able to push my EV-skills very very far with the help of many guys in the forum here.
Thanks a lot and many greetings Mike
Hi there Oobflyer,
"YOU ARE AN OPTIMIST".
But then so am I. Unfortunately, I am also a realist and an engineer which makes me rather sceptical when it comes to 'sales talk'.
How does that saying go? "There are lies, damned lies and then there are Politicians, Salesmen, Estate agents and Bankers" or words to that effect.
Promises (especially sales talk) are worthless until they become reality, and whilst you are right, Vectrix did produce a 'first' with the VX1, they also have failed to follow up with 'upgrades' and 'openness' as regards the 'workings' of the electronics of the bike.
One thing that is certain, is that nothing about the Vectrix electronics is really new. It has all been done before, the charger, motor control, motor/gearbox arrangement etc, so why is there such 'secrecy' over the circuitry/programming/etc. Even the repair data is scant. I still haven't located the brake pad types/part description and they are a regular brembo product.
Anyway, I have had my grumble, made my point and now I shall let this topic rest. I have other fish to fry as they say, back to those programing problems. I am real pleased that you are happy with your Vectrix dealings, others have not been so fortunate.
I am still hoping that Dana will get in touch and maybe between us we can produce a charger programme which will not destroy batteries but instead will charge and maintain them in good order for long periods of time and usage. I still want to achieve that 50000 miles before having to replace my battery.
Best wishes to you on this new years day and, as I am in a good mood, my best wishes to Vectrix and all of their customers too.
Keep smiling,
The Laird.
(The impossible we do at once, miracles take a little longer).
HI The Laird!
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/
Front and Rear FA181
CU
Mario
-------- http://www.vectrix-forum.de --------
THE FIRST german VECTRIX Forum
Laird you are quite right!
The assets of the old Vectrix Corp were purchased by the battery manufacturer, Gold Peak, largely to prevent class actions against Gold Peak for warranty claims against Gold Peak as the battery manufacturer. These legal threat became very pressing with the successful legal decision against Vectrix Corp in favour of the Australian Distributor.
Vectrix Corp, after squandering more than $800,000,000, filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, changing the name to Electric Scooter Wind Down Corp and listing the name Vectrix as an asset.
As part of the bankruptcy settlement, and in order to entice Goldpeak, Vectrix (ESWDC)the court allowed a $2 m fund, paid for by gold peak, that would effectively extinguish all warranty claims against Vectrix and suppliers.
This legal manoeuvre protected Gold Peak and others from judgements secured against Vectrix Corp for selling a product(s) inherently unfit for sale or of unmaintainable quality, failing to provide statutory duty of maintenance of supply of spare parts, and other actions.
.
Gold Peak is a PRC based battery manufacturer of patchy reputation, trading through Hong Kong and Singaporean subsidiaries.
Vectrix Corp failed because it had a totally unrealistic business model. The product aroused a lot of passion and support (me included), because of the exciting concept. However, with very flawed product quality and a completely unworkable warranty logistic plan, the corporation was already in difficulties when it was completely destroyed by the totally egotistical bad management of CEO, Mike Boyle.
Lower down the corporate pecking order, true believers like Steve Scott, Dana De Costa, etc.., worked tirelessly to maintain the enthusiasm of fellow true believers. Sadly, this often occurs with extinct products, small groups of fans try unrealistically to keep the dream alive.Often sending good money after bad, trying to keep the dream alive. (Some times this is just a lack of realism, a desire to maintain the good times, or just a stubbornness not to admit error!) The UK has a long sad history of these folk. (look at British Leyland).
The replacement of Dr Wolfgang Gohl at Vectrix by GoldPeak's William Lau, is a clear indication of the dismal prospects for those hoping for a Vectrix rival. Dr Gohl's departure signifies the determination by GoldPeak to 'rationalise' Vectrix, into a profitable unit within Goldpeak. Vectrix has closed down it's R&D unit, 'outsourcing' to various PRC enterprises. The debacle with Heskeith UK last year displays the total lack of realism still haunting Vectrix. Goldpeak will not continue to subsidise an unprofitable business division after Tax/subsidies expire.
GoldPeak may still extract some profit from Vectrix name as badge engineered PRC produced small two-wheel imports, but the days of the VX1 are over.
It is interesting to note that both Steve Scott and Dana De Costa, were product and technical managers for a product whose systemic failures are now apparent. Both of these employees were enthusiastic supporters of an attempt to implement an unsustainable warranty plan whose logistic's (except possibly in the UK) were based on the early days of Rolls Royce!
Vectrix was conceived and designed as a mass-manufactured, user friendly, volume selling consumer vehicle,with production runs exceeding 30,000 per year to be profitable. In four years, Vectrix never achieved sales of more than a few hundred units per year! Even these meagre results, were beset by spare part and Battery difficulties.
Vectrix Mark Two is simply a cost minimisation exercise by GoldPeak. Even if GoldPeak were totally sincere, Goldpeak lacks the capacity to resolve the logistical problems that only a Honda, BMW, Piaggio, Suzuki, Yamaha, etc.. could address.
Silly conspiracy theories aside, why do Vectrix Mark Two supporters think that these very experienced corporations, with huge facilities and resources, didn't spend the mere $6,000,000 to purchase Vectrix?
Be realistic, setting aside emotion, and with all due respect to the sincerity of Steve Scott and Dana De Costa, these guys are little more than servicemen . Their opinions maybe valid when it comes to actual bike repair, but what experience have they had in running the complexity of a large corporation? Its like asking a TV repairman to express insightful information about the future of Sony Corp!
Take off the rose tinted glasses, and you will see that the future of Vectrix (apart from a badge engineered PRC e-moto or similar) is over!
Look back over the history of EV's, all those wonderful and at times eccentric EV start-ups (mostly vapour-ware), are already consigned to the curiosity bin of history, by Volt, Leaf, etc..
Even sadder is the fate of early pioneers like Blade, who did get in production with a good product. They too, will be swept away by the Major Automakers production of EV's. Some, the lucky ones, will find a future with the Major's as EV's go mainstream. At the very top end, some may find enough wealthy buyers to by very upmarket models (but probably even Tesla with be swallowed by Toyota). The rest will be consigned to mumbling on at anorak swap meets.
Such is Life!
marcopolo
Fine by me! I never got any decent service from them, anyway. The more broken Vectrix bikes, the better for those "Anoraks" who can keep them going.
The VX-1 is not a vehicle for those who want reliable function and service. It never was.
It's a collectors item, each one produced at a cost of about $200,000.- (according to Marcopolos estimates).
What a shame there are still so many boxed up in factory new condition, that can only bring the price down....
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
To be fair Mik, the initial Australian Vectrix distributors were young and fairly naive. The totally unrealistic service concept was never realisable in an area the size of Australasia, especially with such a poorly performing product.
For those readers unfamiliar with the Vectrix warranty plan, basically, each Vectrix sold would be serviced at the customers place of residence. Although the only service plan of this nature would seem to have become uneconomic for Rolls Royce in the late 1920's, Vectrix decided to offer it regardless of logistic sanity.
Such a plan may be marginally feasible in Switzerland, or even the UK, but like North America, Australia has mindbogglingly vast distances between cities. ( New Zealand and Tasmania have an ocean to cross). For South African and other distributors, there was just no support for the product at all from Vectrix Corp for a service concept this crazy.
Vectrix Corp insisted on imposing this mad scheme on distributors, without honouring the promised service subsidies. This was particularly galling when the Vectrix owned, UK subsidiary, was given first preference at spare parts and able to create a good impression in the UK, at the expense of other distributors.
Just look at the sort of logistics and expense this plan created! On a unit with a maximum profit margin of 15% (the Australian dollar was much weaker)the Melbourne(aust)based Vectrix distributor would be required to fly a mechanic to service Miks bike in Queensland (6000 klms return, approx)! Hopefully the service technician could effect repair with the equipment able to be carried on an aircraft.
If the service technician would be forced drive 6000 ks, there and back staying in motels each night! The mechanic/serviceman's next service call may be to Perth, 9600 klms return. The possibility of establishing local service agents proved unfeasible with the small number of Vectrix. A single service enquiry, would wipe out any profit, and Vectrix Corp simply never honoured its promised subsidies to distributors.
If the service enquiry suggested a battery replacement might be required, (and most did) this required a battery road-freighted to the destination in advance, but if the problem proved to be resolved without the battery replaced, the battery was sent back at considerable cost, and so on etc.. (I haven't even started on NZ or Tasmania)!
the entire service plan was a monumental folly, easily foreseeable.
Mik, from my investigations, the problems you encountered with Vectrix, were the created by Vectrix Corp and the arrogance of the CEO Mike Boyle, not the unfortunate Australian distributor who really tried, at great loss to honour warranties.
I say this in the interests of fairness to Vectrix Australia.
marcopolo
I am not (just) talking about Vectrix Australia.
I did contact Vectrix USA and Vectrix Europe, practically anyone that I could get an email contact address for, which included a lot of high-ranking people within Vectrix, before taking things into my own hands. They knew there were problems before I made them public.
The inability to cooperate on basic issues (like diagnosing problems by using my descriptions of the symptoms) did not just lie with Vectrix Australia.
That's why I had to write the open letter to Vectrix when my first and second Vectrix failed due to "unknown causes" in mid-traffic. It was simply the main fuse, damaged by lack of instructions, lack of ICL's, and deliberate withholding of easy work-around options from Vectrix distributors in places other than the UK. They knew in the UK that a simple 40W globe was sufficient as an ICL, but were not allowed to tell the rest of the Vectrix-world about it! They wanted to sell their horrifically over-engineered ICL's, but (I guess) could not keep up with the demand.
I started from zero EV knowledge and I think I learned a lot faster than Vectrix Australia. They should however have learned a few things before importing dozens of EV's. Like how to EQ charge a battery. Any battery, independently of the OS supposed to run the show inside the EV.
If I bought a container of EV's, I'd strip one down just "for fun", starting on day one!
And when Vectrix Australia had problems with getting support, parts or whatever from Vectrix Corp, they should have let me know about it.
Something like: "Mate, sorry but those b*****ds are not giving us any advice, no spare parts, they are not paying us for the work, we are going broke, they ripped us off...." would have gone a long, long way! But instead, Vectrix Australia parroted the lies from Vectrix Corp even after they knew better.
When they cancelled my warranty (because I did the work for them and shared how to do it) they were probably already involved in a legal battle with Vectrix Corp. The reasoning for the cancellation was totally sham. They had in fact damaged my motor controller during a fuse replacement by not using a torque wrench, but claimed that my gearbox repair caused the motor controller damage. HAHA!
Vectrix Australia were probably a victim of Vectrix Corp's lies; but they did nothing to stop the problem from propagating and became guilty themselves in the process.
At least they have a bunch of pristine, boxed collectors items left for when they become expensive....
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Mik, I can't comment (except sympathise) on your individual experiences with Vectrix Australia, as I wasn't party to the transactions.
My information about Vectrix Corp in Australia, is derived from reading the pleadings in the Australian Supreme Court and interviewing witnesses for our own action against Vectrix Corp. (as well as my own dealings with Vectix Corp and VA).
As I say, in all fairness, Vectrix Australia, couldn't speak to you in that manner, in fact it would have made the directors of VA liable for a breach of contract suit. VA was lucky in that they were able to piggy back off our legal action against VC in the UK, to to escape the exceedingly onerous contract they had foolishly entered into with Vectrix Corp. (the directors of VA signed a very complex contract that effectively silenced them from critising VCorp).
I am not saying that VA actions were always correct, but hindsight is useless and these guy's were way out of their depth. It is atonishing that Vectrix Corp knowingly sent 150 defective units to an unsuspecting VA,(ex-Italian rejects) and provided no proper technical support whatsoever. This tactic to balance that years books was a typical Mike Boyle stunt. From the very begining Mike Boyle was disinterested in the long term success of VA. What he needed was a show of success (no matter how unsustainable) to convince the V Corp directors of his brilliance so his s contract would be renewed and he could award himself his huge bonus payment, (and other side benefits), from shareholder funds.
Great efforts were made by VCorp to keep the UK looking viable. This was because most of the Vectrix funding was raised on the UK based AIMS stock exchange. In reality Vectrix was completly unsustainable, but a very clever PR/Legal/Media/'supporters' campain was initiated to paper over the cracks and silence critics. The campaign was designed to show that any failures were down to the distributors and that the vectrix owned and operated VUK was viable. In fact this was never true, but enough resources were diverted to the UK operation to create that impression. The UK technical staff were paid to the very end, cynically to convey the impression that the directors personally not liable for the crash. These directors are fortunate that the mutally benificial GoldPeak deal occured, and the US court signed off. A UK court will not be so expediant.
Probably the only competent and honest senior Vectrix executive was Dr wolfgang Gohl. His departure marks the end of the original dream. I wish Dr Gohl well. In my dealings with Dr Gohl I have always found him honest and technically knowlegable.
In the history of VA, not one V Corp director, manager, engineer, or executive ever travelled to Australia! However, VA was constantly threatened and forced to toe the line by VCorps' very aggressive Lawyers!.
The processing of your claims by VA was at the direction, insistance, and threats of VCorp's lawyer. The role of this US based and qualified, Italian resident, (with a alledged luxury Vectrix paid apartment in London), is curious! Why M.Boyle decided that VCorp needed to retain, at vast expence, a young and relatively inexperienced US corporate lawyer, whose husband lived in Italy, (so she needed to be flown backwards and forwards to London, New York, New Bedford, or wherever M.Boyle was,) has yet to be fully explained. Why, she and not an engineer, marketing executive, dealer advisor was in charge of VCorps' dealings with VA, is indicative of M.Boyles strategy. As I say, the inexperienced and naive Australians were way out of their depth.
But all that is water under the bridge, VCorp has ceased to exist and I agree that the VX1 has ceased to be a viable project for revival.
GoldPeak, will trade off the Vectrix name as a badge engineered product, until all value is gone and the Marque will disappear.
Hopefully, in years to come Vectrix bikes will be treasured as examples of early EV vehicles that almost made it!
Maybe your penguin will be valuable after all!
All the best!
marcopolo
Thank you for these explanations, Marcopolo, it makes a lot of sense.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Some pictures and text on the VX-2 I found here.
Scroll down a bit to see it (below the VX-1 info).
Doesn't sound like a very good product, other than chinese e-max 110s stuff with a Vectrix badge and panels
The end of Vectrix as far as I am concerned.
Once you go EV, Gas is history!
what?? really? was that all of them then? what was/is wrong with them?
Yes, I am afraid you are correct. But, where are all those fanatical Vectrix supporters now? With few a exceptions, it is now apparent that those strident voices from the RMC treehouse crowd were just part of an orchestrated media campaign, originating from VUK.
marcopolo
Ah, you've got me there! I am really just quoting from the Supreme Court pleadings. However, as I understand, the bikes were shipped from the failed Italian operation, and more or less dumped in Australia. VA, spent considerable expense bringing those units it managed to sell, (approx 40-60) up to standard. The rest proved to be too difficult or too expensive, and were simply left in storage somewhere (possibly 90 units) although I would guess many of those were cannibalised for parts.
In the annual returns delivered to the UK AIMS Stock Exchange these same 150 bakes are listed 3 times as sales, giving the completely erroneous figure of 450 sales (extra 300)for that year.
The gratuitously complex corporate organisation of VCorp and subsidiaries, only makes sense when transactions of this nature are revealed.
VA was treated deliberately badly by M.Boyle, and never visited by a single executive or engineer from Vectrix. In fact M.Boyle forbade any VUK or VCorp support. This is very odd considering in 2008-9, the Sale to VA constituted 20% of the total world wide Vectrix sales.
marcopolo
I'll continue to support my Vectrix as long as it supports me! The VX-2 doesn't do it for me but, based upon MY ownership experience in the UK, I'd still consider a Lithium VX1. My only problem (touching wood, fingers crossed) is that I have no reason to upgrade yet - 10,100 miles over 2 years 4 months, ridden nigh on every day and never been let down. I've been part of a fortunate few but, considering that I now go into this with far more knowledge than I had for my original purchasing decision - I'd still consider a Vectrix. Yes, it's a gamble but I'd risk it! Here's hoping that I don't have to for at least another couple of years.
well that just sucks.
I think most of his stock is now sold fwiw.
Yep, that just about sums it up!
No, not according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics registration of two-wheel EV's, there would be over 80 VX 1's in storage somewhere. The last ASIC report for VA listed over 8O as assets. What the bikes batteries and general condition are like I can't say, but the certainly would still exist. In fact the VA's last registered office was listed as being in Toorak Victoria, near where you live. I was thinking of tracking them down and making an offer to purchase either as spare parts, or hiring Matt to fit them with lithium batteries[/quote]
marcopolo
[/quote]
oh. well that's interesting. VA's serviceman told me there are only two left boxed up and they're thinking of keeping them for parts instead of selling....so..who knows!!
Serviceman? That must have been a long time ago? To the best of my knowledge, VA has been moribund (not trading) for well over 12 months?
Thanks for the information, when I get time, I shall instigate enquiries.
I hope your VX I is performing satisfactorily.
marcopolo
it was three weeks ago.
it's ok. love riding it...just wish it had a bit more range 10% of the time, but it's not a deal breaker.
This is an interesting thread - partly because it started out in such an upbeat way and then turned into an exploration of all that was wrong with the original Vectrix Corp and the fundamental errors made by Mike Boyle.
I don't think anyone would argue that there were a lot of misjudgments and mistakes made by Vectrix Corp e.g the huge amount of money poured into the Italian market to little effect and the debacle of the Vectrix Australia episode. There were also basic faults with pricing, cost control and marketing that have affected so many of us as either users or dealers.
However - we have to keep things in perspective here! At least Vectrix produced the first truly viable electric scooter and as a first stab you have to say that it was/is pretty good! How many electric two wheelers that have been produced subsequently still don't perform as well as the VX1? I have ridden plenty...
To try and second guess what Gold Peak are going to do with Vectrix seems a little disingenuous to me. We don't really know their intentions and sadly they haven't come out and given us chapter and verse on what their plans are. We could really do with hearing from them!
OK some VX1s suffered problems - but equally quite a lot have not suffered too much. Not too bad for a pioneering product really is it? After all, look at what the purchasers of the first petrol vehicles had to put up with!
Presumably we are all EV enthusiasts on here - otherwise why would we be here? So, let's see some enthusiasm please and some hope for the future. Some people have worked really hard to make this thing fly - let's applaud their vision and hard work rather than just consign it all to the waste pile. After all, the future should concern us all.
LeanMachines
Yay Leanm, a fellow optimist! I started this thread after hearing the good news from Dana DeCosta and obtaining his permission to post it here on 'V is for Voltage'. I was shocked at some of the pessimistic responses. but, I can't judge, I would be frustrated too if I had purchased a $10K machine only to have trouble with it.
On person compared Dana to a TV repairman! Dana is actually an integral part of the core team of the original Vectrix. He works with the engineers and administration alike. I don't believe for one second that he's just blowing smoke.
Meanwhile, I rode another ten gas-free, pollution-free miles today. All of my fuel costs went to domestic energy producers, none of my money went to the middle east or Venezuela, and I had fun while running errands!
I think that's because people are finally sick of 'optimistic upbeat' messages from Vectrix in different guises! Had there been a little less optimistic idealism, (and excuses), and a little more realism, Vectrix may have enjoyed more commercial success.
We are not talking about art, or a cure for cancer! Vectrix was, and still is, a commercial business venture. It's not a quixotic, offshoot of a giant corporation like Honda, BMW, etc, who can afford to indulge in a noble experiment. Vectrix cost investors, customers, creditors, etc, more than $800 million! Now you can say, so what? That's just someone else's money! But not everyone shares that view.
The wanton deception by Vectrix not only hurt a lot of people, but set back the cause of EV investor confidence.
Clinging to hope is one thing, but ignoring practical analysis if favour blind hope may not be disingenuous, but it is just plain stupid! The reason Gold Peak, have not stated the future is obvious! There isn't one! don't you think that the departure of Vectrix only experienced manufacturing/ engineer director, to be replaced by an accountant/corporate rationalisation executive, may just indicate Gold Peaks intentions?
Good grief, the manufacture of EV vehicles is not a family enterprise, or school project! There are no prizes for trying hard, but losing $800 million. Until Margret Thatcher, this kind of fuzzy thinking nearly sent the UK bankrupt,but not before the death of the British motor industry (and countless others).
I have no enthusiasm for Vectrix! The companies products were misconceived, defectively, and whole enterprise was distinguished by its bungling incompetence!
'
Nor should anyone else.
I notice you fail to express enthusiasm for the nearly 30 years of commitment and massive personnel investment by William Clay Ford, that enabled real EV development? Where is your enthusiasm for Smith Electrics? Jacobsen's?
Save your admiration for real pioneers that produce worth wile products.
Let's get something straight here, about 9 months before Vectrix Mark One, went belly up, I wrote a series of articles and posts (including V is for Voltage) that Vectrix was in trouble,due to excessive mismanagement, poor marketing analysis,quality control problems and an inherently flawed business plan. I also stated that Vectrix was misleading the stock-market, and would be forced to file for bankruptcy before the year was out.
This information was greet by howls of protest, also wild claims and accusations. Mike Boyle at Vectrix responded with a barrage of inaccurate optimistic predictions supported by distorted figures. The inevitable happened, Vectrix collapsed.
It gives me no joy to see myself proven correct! I am still the largest single owner of Vectrix VX1's! I liked The VX 1, and like everyone else at first, was excited by the concept. (I still enjoy riding my VX1)
But it's just not a practical product. It's far too expensive, to justify such limited use and capacity. No amount wishful thinking will change the fact that the basic business model is flawed!
I'm sorry you took umbrage at my TV repairman analogy in regard to Dana DeCosta, but Dana De Costa is in no position to predict Gold Peak's corporate financial policy! He is simply repeating what he is told,and what he hopes will be true. That is right and proper for an loyal employee. He is not sufficiently senior to be accurately informed.
Steve Scott, and all the other dedicated servicemen in the UK and even European distributors were loyally trying to announcing that the good ship SS Vectrix was fine and even expanding, just as M . Boyle was trying to flog the life rafts and contacting the accident insurers, and wondering what life was like on an iceberg!
So you may forgive my scepticism at "Good news" items emanating from Vectrix. We've heard it all before, I recently asked how Gold Peak, how Vectrix Mk 11, was going to address the issues of the VX1, and the reply was they couldn't divulge any information outside of the press release. The press release is vague, mainly concentrating on a PRC built small bike using lithium batteries.
marcopolo
Oh, OK MarcoPolo. Maybe in future I should run anything I wish to post by you first for your approval? Just in case it makes you more sick.
Just one thing...this thread was about Vectrix not Smiths Industries or Jacobsens or William Clay Ford. If you knew me at all (and you don't) then you would know that I admire and respect many pioneering engineers in many fields, including ICE and EVs.
I was not making any predictions or even contradicting anything that you had said so why do you answer so aggressively?
Oh and finally, if the VX1 is such a pile of poo, then why did you buy so many?
LeanMachines
Well, I'm sorry, if I have offended you by pricking your bubble of optimism. My criticism wasn't meant to be directed at you exclusively.
Unfortunately, the first post on this thread reads like a press release from Vectrix. In the past,so much Vectrix "good news" has spread by earnest supporters, only to dissolve into "bad news"!
You are right, you certainly do not need my approval. However, but if you express an opinion, you must expect others to express contrary views. If Vectrix had been simple Vaporware or a foible by a well funded corporation or individual, attitudes would be different.
What did you expect? Praise for a project that lost $800 million and probably dissuaded far more competent manufactures? Responsibility, candour and accountability are required of all manufacturers who seek investment and trust from customers. Vectrix failed miserably.
Perhaps if we had been all more critical of Vectrix from the beginning, the SS Vectrix would have avoided the iceberg!
In many ways, Vectrix was a very good bike. (It should be, at $200, 000 per unit!) As I say, I enjoy riding my own Vectrix. I guess, like many others, I was carried away with enthusiasm of owning the first freeway legal, mass marketed EV.
In hindsight, it's obvious that the basic business model was flawed, but in our enthusiasm, everyone suspended rational judgement. Once, is human, twice would be just plain stupid.
Unlike most owners, I am fortunate as a fleet owner to be able to maintain and modify my Vectrix VX 1's, (and attract sufficient tax relief to soften the pain!). As a resort hire/courtesy vehicle, Vectrix is a great concept. It is just the execution that doesn't measure up! (read Mik's brilliant analysis).
I also own a fully functioning, mass produced, four seater, four door, air conditioned, freeway legal EV. The Australian made Blade Electron, was manufactured years before the Nissan Leaf iMev etc (and compares very favourably).
Sadly, this little EV will disappear, not because like Vectrix, the company is badly managed, poorly made and maintained. Blade, without government patronage to achieve unit cost savings, can't compete with EV's from Nissan, Ford, GM, and more importantly, Hyundai.
I hope Ross Blade can survive as a specialist EV maker, producing and servicing specialised commercial EV's for a limited market that can afford to pay for such vehicles
Lynn, no one is criticising your enthusiasm for EV's, but as the EV pioneer/hobbyist era gives way to mainstream production, starry-eyed idealism, must give way to practical commercial analysis. Less romantic, but then there's is nothing romantic about watching the hardship and anger created by irresponsible idealist's, (no matter how well intentioned), losing other peoples money.
In the end, EV manufacture is a business, like all business, EV's must find a profitable market to survive.
marcopolo
Boy do I know how to start a conversation, or what!?
As an EV enthusiast and motorcycle rider I would really like to see Vectrix succeed. As someone who has met Dana DeCosta and spoken with him, I trust him. As someone who has had the good fortune to travel throughout Europe and Asia, I see the worldwide acceptance of scooters for basic transportation.
However, as someone who knows nothing about business, or law (I work in the medical field) I am completely unqualified to predict the outcome of the Gold Peak takeover of Vectrix. I can speculate -- we all know that it's very difficult for a new start-up company to get off the ground, but beyond that it's anybody's guess. Perhaps Gold Peak is in it just for a tax write-off. Perhaps they're just about to release a new global ad campaign.
I hope that marcopolo is wrong, but if he's right and Vectrix is doomed to failure, I think we can still appreciate the fact that Vectrix had big ambitions and made significant headway into the EV motorcycle world. If Vectrix hadn't broken the mold, would Brammo have jumped into the arena? Would Zero have tried it without the precedent-setting freeway electric motorcycle that is Vectrix? Again, just speculation.
Cheers to all of you riding on electrons, and keep the rubber side down :-)
oobflyer, he is ratling your cage. It's just his way, be smarter than him.
So here's my question about it. V spent 100s of millions developing the scooter. It's pretty hard to get a return on that sort of outlay. But didn't the new owner only pay $5m or something? surely it's going to be easier to get a return on that, esp when they manufacture the battery as well, so it's win win for them, really.
I mean, how much does it actually cost to build one of these things? Surely not so much that a reasonable price at the retail level giving a good return to the new owner is out of the question.
I really enjoy my V and if it was made with a battery that gave better range, which apparently it is, I just don't see a downside with it.
Mate, that's a very fair assumption, and good logic. On the surface it makes good sense.
The problem is that the VX1 was designed as a mass manufactured bike, most of the components are exclusive to Vectrix. Even after development costs are written off, and management improved, what then?
In theory, Vectrix could continue (like Morgan) to manufacture limited numbers of VX1's to show case Gold Peaks battery technology. The VX1 could be marketed as loss leader, to improve the image of PRC badge engineered bikes. The sales of small cheap, profitable, scooters could broaden the marques appeal, while subsidising the sales of the prestigious VX1's.
When Vectrix Mark 11, emerged from bankruptcy this was basically the plan. Endorsed by the court and competent Vectrix executives, such as Dr Gohl, dedicated former vectrix staff, and true believers. After all, some 15 million dollars worth of unsold Vectrix bikes and components still existed, some of the dealer network was still intact(or could be revived), and sales could recommence in smaller, but more profitable marketing area.
All this makes good commercial sense, both to the optimistic,and the opportunistic.
Now here's the point where you have to separate your passion for the Vectrix VX1, from a passion for electric two-wheeled vehicles in general, and see the problems from Gold Peaks perspective.
After all the excitement died down, Gold Peak discovered, the VX1 problems were not just battery and bad management. As Mik, John and other engineers will tell you, although the VX1 was in many ways an advanced and exciting design, it contained a number of inherent flaws. These flaws are difficult to fix, and Gold Peak will not invest the considerable capital required for a re-engineered up-date model. Without R&D, and development, the VX1 becomes just a obsolete curiosity.
Nor is Gold Peak willing to commit funds to an R&D program outside of the battery area. Gold Peak's commitment to this method of battery sales promotion, will naturally lessen once they have recovered their losses. The PRC's new policy to limit sale of rare earths, so battery sales need less promotion, adds to the speculative fate of the VX1 .
Sadly for Vectrix, small EV scooter profit margins are very slender, due to the highly competitive nature of the market. It's doubtful that a badge engineered product can generate the sort of volume sales needed to make the exercise worthwhile. Gold Peak's management have no emotional commitment to Vectrix, and will be judging the enterprise purely in terms of profitability and return on investment. This sort of thinking is alien to Vectrix, and Dana DeCosta, are motivated by enthusiasm rather than practicalities.
So where does that leave Vectrix (VX1)?
At the peak of enthusiasm for Vectrix, world sales never exceeded a few hundred units per year. Total registered sales were less than 2000 at the time of the companies demise. Is there really a big enough market for an expensive, large, heavy, electric scooter, with range limited to only commuter travel?
Even as a loss leader, Vectrix would still have to sell 5600 VX1 units per year to break even.
Vectrix is very expensive to manufacture.(even without all the development costs). Even with a cheaper battery, the bike still costs approximately $8000 to manufacture! (depending on battery price). When you add warranty, transport, dealer margins, advertising,capital repayments, profit,Tax etc the selling price must be close to $12,000.(figures based on industry-wide costing standards). Fortunately the US dollar has devalued from 2008, but even so the VX1 will always be expensive. My estimates are very low and based on fleet. Incentives to dealers outside of a narrow group of 'green' dealers, would require a return of at least $2000 per unit.
My costings do not take into account government tax, or subsidy incentives. (anything to make the bike cheaper would help sales, but not double or triple sales). The original premise that the cost of Petrol would promote sales, proved very inaccurate. Against much cheaper ICE equivalents, the savings are too small to provide sufficient incentive. Against a car, Vectrix is unable to compete in practicality.
The VX1, has its fans, (me included) who love riding on electrons, but not enough to make it profitable.
Not with the Nissan leaf selling for under $20,000 in some US states and in the low $30's in the rest of the world!
Gold Peak, once having recovered it's capital investment,(and original losses), from the remaining stock and assets, will exploit the Vectrix name on PRC made scooters until that either proves unprofitable, or Gold Peak unloads Vectrix to a PRC maker in return for a battery supply deal.
Gold Peaks intentions can be predicted by the departure of Dr Gohl.
I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the history of Vectrix has been one of enthusiasm and unrealistic expectations over commercial realism. I have no difficulty with that, if Vectrix had been a rich mans experiment, (like the Sinclair C5), but it wasn't. It was financed by other peoples money in a highly irresponsible fashion.
(Incidentally, I'd love to know who the 'Vectrix Australia' service man is, according to documents filed with the Dept of Fair trading (Victoria) vectrix has had no employees for over 15 months!)
marcopolo
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