Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

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bennelson
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Hi everyone!

I would like to know if anyone on this forum has added a J1772 charging port to their Vectrix.

In the United States, home electric power is 120VAC, but public Electric Vehicle charging stations use 240VAC with the J1772 standard. My Vectrix is wired for a standard 120VAC household plug, but that can't be plugged in at the public stations. (Well, there are a handful of charging stations with Level 1 AND Level 2, but they are RARE in my area.)

Has anyone built an adapter or rewired their Vectrix cord for J1772? I am looking specifically for somebody who has done it for advice, photos, etc.

I currently have a J1772 port I removed from a salvaged electric car which I could use to build an adapter from, but want to know the how.

Thanks in advance!

11081272_10155434258100165_8890261657763038394_n.jpg

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R
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

In Europe every electric socket receives 240V. Charging stations in Barcelona are build with "shucko" plugs, but latelly a join venture between BMW nissan and Ranult layed out the "Trios", powerful chargers with Mannekes (AC), Cs combo (DC) and Chademo (DC). We have tested a Mennekes-shuko converter, and it works! in the future that converter will be very useful!
IMG-20150321-WA0001.jpg

reikiman
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

The tricky thing with adding a J1772 port (whether the US or European flavor) is that the protocol has a pilot signal which indicates the charging rate desired by the vehicle. To do it correctly, by the spec, you need to generate the correct pilot signal.

There are J1772 boxes available that fake out the pilot signal.

http://www.tucsonev.com/

http://stores.ebay.com/Modular-EV-Power

http://modularevpower.com/

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11300-using-avcon-style-public-charger

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11767-received-my-j1772-adapter-modularev-power

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PJD
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Dave and Ben,

To clarify, it is the EVSE that provides the pilot signal - a 1000 hz 12-volt square wave - whose duty cycle tells the _car_ what the EVSE's maximum current capability is, and the car reads this signal and if necessary, changes its charging rate accordingly so that the EVSE's circuit does not get overloaded. The car tells the EVSE nothing with this regard. The only thing the car does to the EVSE is:

1. Grounds-out the pilot signal (pin 4) through a diode, half-rectifying it - the purpose of this is so the EVSE cannot accidentally turn on and electrocute the driver if the plug is dropped in a puddle or such, as no accidental grounding out of the pilot will behave like a diode.

2. Thr car also pulls-down the voltage of the above-half-rectified square wave pilot signal at the EVSE to 9 volts with a 2.7K resistor - which means: "EVSE, I'm plugged in, but not ready for charging"

3. Or, it pulls-down the pilot signal voltage at the EVSE to 6 volts with 880 ohm of resistance - which means: "EVSE, I want to charge."

But in the case of scooters, it gets simpler, because as far as I know all chargers on a scooter draw less than 15 amps at 240 volts - the lowest that any EVSE will be, so it can't overload it - so we don't need to worry about it reading the EVSE's duty cycle. The "I'm plugged in, not ready for charging" is also not needed - becasue the scooter charger is just a "dumb" device that draws mains current and does not need to adjust its current draw. And also, contrary to widely held belief, the vehicle does not have to "pass through" the plugged in but not ready" mode to the "ready to charge" mode in order for the EVSE to turn on.

So, assuming that your Vectrix charger is capable of running on either 120 or 240 volts without any changes (as TC chargers can), then all you need to use a normal J1772 EVSE is a small diode, forward-direction to ground, in series with a 887 (1%) or 910 (5%) resistor, connected from the pilot pin (pin 4) to the ground pin (pin 3, the middle one). That's all. (Yes, I did it on my CuMoCo Scooter and it works fine.) You don't need the bulky expensive adapter boxes such as Tuscon EV and others sell.

The only precaution is that if you are planning to set it up so you can use the normal Vectrix 120 volt charging port, and it is a normal NEMA 5-15 male plug, then you must protect it from curious or stray fingers, becasue the exposed prongs will be energized with 240 volts when the scooter is plugged into the EVSE (and vice versa - but the J1772 prongs are at least in holes and require a very deliberate effort to touch). I have seen plans for a double-relay setup to disconnect one or the other charging ports** but I simply keep a dummy plug over my NEMA 5-15 plug, and the J1772 has a cover over it too.

** http://modularevpower.com/Wiring/J1772%20and%20NEMA%20wiring.htm

martinwinlow
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Why not go the whole hog and fit a CHAdeMO port? See http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=15 - I'm only half joking. Plan to do it to mine... soon.

But if you want to do what you are suggesting it can be done relatively simply - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK56l_v87jk&feature=youtu.be ... tells you all you need to know (on top of what PJD already posted) but just fast forward to 0:19 where there is a circuit diagram (It's all Greek to me - well, German, anyway!).

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reikiman
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Implementing CHAdeMO is another level of difficulty because it's not so easy to fake out as J1772 is. It requires CANBUS communication to communicate the CHAdeMO protocol, meaning a small computer in the middle to do so. Another issue with CHAdeMO is some of the stations don't work with low voltage packs.

I'd located two ways to get CHAdeMO onto my Karmann Ghia:

1) Zero Motorcycles sells one for their bikes, but it can be configured for other vehicles. The reconfig will require Zero providing some technical documentation.
2) QuickChargePower is developing JDEMO, a CHAdeMO port for the Toyota RAV4 EV or the Mercedes B-Class EV. I'd discussed with them the possibility of using their gizmo on other vehicles, and they said it's possible. Again their target audience isn't the DIY home build crowd but it can be done.

In both cases you're talking close to $2 grand.

BTW there's no need for CHAdeMO on a vehicle with a small pack. A 3kw charger would be quick charging on a small pack, eh?

The circuit you showed is the fake-out circuit for J1772

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- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra Townie, 1971 Karmann Ghia (since sold), Kia Soul EV

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Is anyone in the United States charging at home with 240V for their Vectrix? (Such as from a 30 or 50 amp 240V receptacle in their garage? Welding outlet, etc.)

Does it charge at the same current, and thus double the power and half the charge time?
or
At the same wattage, but half the current, thus not changing anything?

I built a 240V to 120V adapter and plugged the Vectrix in to it. It seemed to start charging exactly the same as when I charged at 120V. The Speedometer needle goes to about 110 KPH. Am I correct that that indicates 11 amps?

Am I now charging at 11 amps at 240V?

Normally, I check this sort of thing with a Kill a Watt, but those are designed for 120V only.

I'd like to figure a few of these things out before building a J1772 adapter. I have a Level 2 charging port off a Mitsubishi iMiev I can use. I also have the Chademo port from the same vehicle if anyone is looking to buy one.

reikiman
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Get an AC clamp-on meter.

I have a unit from efergy.us that measures power through an AC line.

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- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra Townie, 1971 Karmann Ghia (since sold), Kia Soul EV

Sugarstorm
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Yes. The speed is the AMP metter when charging. So, 110 kph is 11 amps at 240v. That is the original firmware.
And each amp you pull uses about 150w in the CP stage.

Bikes with modified firmware (The Laird or Fuel Free Motos) draw less amps. A fixed 6 amps in The Laird's case (so about 900w), and programable in FFM's case (from 1 to 13 amps, so from 150w to 1950w).

Heavendenied
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Sugarstorm wrote:

Yes. The speed is the AMP metter when charging. So, 110 kph is 11 amps at 240v. That is the original firmware.
And each amp you pull uses about 150w in the CP stage.

Bikes with modified firmware (The Laird or Fuel Free Motos) draw less amps. A fixed 6 amps in The Laird's case (so about 900w), and programable in FFM's case (from 1 to 13 amps, so from 150w to 1950w).

I don't think so. If this was wright than the charger would charge at about 2600 Watts and that is far from the 1800Watts it can do...
As far as i know the Speedometer shows the Amps between the Charger and the batterie. That means if the speddometer shows 110 that means about 140V x 11 Amps which is 1500 Watts.
So if you would use a Wattmeter between the plug und the plug socket you would see about 6.6 amps.

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Heavendenied, what you are saying sounds correct to me.

In my experience with chargers, they are typically limited to total wattage. Quite a few chargers can be set to different output voltages, but the higher the charging voltage output, the lower the current. It would make sense for the charger to be drawing fewer amps from the wall at higher voltage, but then displaying the same current to the batteries on the display as before.

I have several devices for measuring current at 120VAC, but not at 240VAC.

Heavendenied
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

AT the Moment i have changed my charger power to 1000 watts and it shows about 72 in the speedometer when i charge. Looking at my wattmeter i can see that it drains about 5,2 A at 230V. So this means the charger drains about 1200W from the plug and giving nearly exact 1000W to the battery (140V*7,2A).
When i used the original Setting with 1500 watts charging power the speedometer showed about 110 (140*11=1540) while my wattmeter showed about 1800 watts (i didn't look at the amps).
So you can be sure the charger always gives nearly the same "power" to the batteries, regardless if you are charging with 110V AC or 230/240V AC.

What could be intresting is if the charging efficiency is the same at 230V and 110V AC. In my case the charger seems to have an efficiency of about 83% in the CC state, maybe less when it goes to CV Mode Not really top... I think newer chargers would reach much higher efficiency.

PS:
Maybe the 140V in CC mode is not correct, i think this value should change from the beginning to the end of CC mode. I'm not really good in understanding the modes of the charger...

reikiman
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Ben,

Clamp-on AC Meters

Efergy E2 Wireless Electricity Monitor

Either work for measuring power over a 240 volt line

And yes you're about right on the power & volts & watts for a given charger.

__________________

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra Townie, 1971 Karmann Ghia (since sold), Kia Soul EV

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

I just finally today bought myself a clamp-on meter. A little on the pricey side, because I really wanted one that did DC too. I'll play around with it a little more, but as discussed, it would be interesting to see if there is a difference in efficiency at the different voltages.

I also bought a 4 inch by 4 inch by 4 inch electric box which should fit both a J1772 and a 20-amp Edison plug at the same time to start building my J1772 adapter.

Spaceangel
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

You meantion that the Vectrix VX-1 has a NEMA 5-15 , 120 volt plug on it. I have been using a cheater cord to change it to NEMA 6-20 to plug in an Air Conditioner outlet. The actual range of the charger is 100 volt to 250 Volt 50 / 60 Hertz. I have the J-1772 receptacle BOX from AZ to my own outlet from Standard Electric a Leviton NEMA 5-20 / 6-20 combo outlet on its end for charging at a Coulomb charging station. My laptop is an Apple MAC and I use one of the spare outlets to power my computer. Same charger! 100-250 volt in. Some people call them switched mode chargers. I call um neat!!! BTW in the stock VX-1 charger there is two chargers in there. One is wide range and the other goes to a separate set of capacitors and nothing is connected to it. I presume it is 250 volt only? My VX-1 is green and is happy with 120 volt stuff or 250 volt and doesn't know the difference. Just make a cheater cord to start off with. The J-1772 kit from Florida requires a 12 volt signal to make conversion but the kit from AZ is bare wires of white, black, and green. Ten AWG or massive over kill 6 or 8 AWG. Just get the 10 AWG corded version for current is almost half at 230 input. Just keep the cord adapters under seat like Leaf does on the pure electric car for charging any where. My adapters are J-1772, NEMA 6-20, and stock NEMA 5-15.

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bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Hi Spaceangel. Yep, what you are doing sounds about what I'm trying too.

I already wired up a test adapter from a 30-amp 240V twist-lock (which I use for my welder) to an electric outlet box with a duplex NEMA 5-20. It worked great.

Now, I'm trying to figure out how to wire up a J1772 instead of that twist lock. I think I'm starting to wrap my brain around it. The best, most understandable explanation I've found so far is at: http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/01/j1772-2009-charging-for-your-ev.html

That includes a nice simple diagram showing both the male and female sides of the J1772 connection. I'm digging through my pile of resistors right now to see if I can rig up a breadboard to do the communication signal. It looks pretty straight-forward.

PJD
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

bennelson,

The only circuit you need is a 910 ohm resistor (the closest 5% resistor to 877 ohms) and diode between the pilot signal pin (Pin 4) and EVSE ground (pin 3). That's all.

You do not need to "pass through" the "connected not ready" stage. You can go right to the "connected and ready" stage, so only one resistor and no switch is needed.

Paul D.

Spaceangel
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

I will try to show you Tucson EV prewired outlet.~This is Tucson EV J-1772 charging at Adams Library. If I can squish in another pix. Can you give me a call 978-243-2055 I would rather see you get a pre-wired outlet and just connect two wires to VX-1 charger. Tucson has a new J-1772 prewired for VX-1 and it doesn't require control E or Control voltage. Look at your laptop brick. It say 100-250 just like VX-1 and my new VX-2 also. OK it is a V-Moto but exactly same charger.Since the PIX did not come out , I'll try the edit function.
NEMA 6 to NEMA 5 adapter for VX-2 and VX-1 Vectrix and maybe Zero also. 208/240 V to charge Maxi Scooters.
~DSCN2695.JPG

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Spaceangel
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

pixDSCN2691.JPG Tucson EVTucsonEV-Logo-1.jpg Looking at web site it look like he has a new J-1772 for about a buck sixty five ready to install in VX-1 or VX-2
If you notice I have a NEMA 5-20 and NEMA 6-20!!!!! Both are 240 volt or 208 volts but even though it is NEMA 5, it is full 240 volt charging to power laptop or switched mode charger. If you plug in a lamp, make sure it is 240 volt bulb. A lot of people ask me how I get 110 volts out of J-1772 and I say magic. My buld to test it is a 240 made DIN china 75watt bulb. I rubbed off black writing saying 240 volts. It is really 240 volts on both with a jumper wire on outlet.
I wrote on Leviton outlet saying all is 240 volts on both NEMA 5 and NEMA 6. Use your adapter under your seat to convert VX-1 stock plug to NEMA 6 or plug it in to top 120 volt side and it is actually 240 volts applied to scooter. There is one more trick you can do for VX-1 also. It can charge straight off of solar p[anels too. Just like your computer brick wired up to 330 to 350 volt DC. Once you have the J-1772 wired up you can use it for Lester charger, Iota, Progressive Dynamics, Amercican Monarch, and any other 240 volt charger. Even the charger on Zero is 240 volts. If you can get to VX-1 battery pack and connect a fused wire or cable from scoot, then you can have 125 volt DC for emergency use and or charge port for bad boy charger. Charge it with a full wave rectifier going thru a 120 volt bulb to trickle charge pack in case of "emergency" 240 volt into a rectifier then drop a a 100 watt bulb with charge at about an amp of current.
Russell as Spaceangel on V

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bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Good photo, thanks for the tips.

I already have a J1772 female port (off a salvaged electric car), so I'll be using that, rather than going out to purchase one. I'm soldering up some resistors and a switch as we speak. I'll post some photos of the project once I have it together.

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Ha ha! I built the adapter and it WORKED!!!!

You can see my full blog entry on it at: http://300mpg.org/?p=5042(Which also includes lots of photos.

Here's what it looks like:

And here's the first time I plugged it in.

With a little addendum on how I fit everything in the trunk.

Bikemad
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Have you checked to make sure the box does not get hot?

I wasn't sure whether or not the wound up wire inside the box would act like a coil and generate unwanted heat, like a coiled up extension lead does under load:

I have just been looking at your blog and I am now very concerned:

I flipped the switch on the box. KA-THUNK!

Yipes! I thought for sure something was wrong, that the EVSE faulted out. Nope. It took me a moment to realize that it was just the contractor inside the EVSE

I know he probably shouldn't have been in there in the first place, but did the poor guy survive the ordeal?

Alan

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Yes, I did want to check on heat. The box did not feel warm at all.

One advantage of 240V over 120 is that it is HALF as much current. Max draw on this setup is about 7 amps at 240V. And of course, it is CURRENT that creates heat.

Spaceangel
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

DSCN2702.JPG

In my experience with chargers, they are typically limited to total wattage. Quite a few chargers can be set to different output voltages, but the higher the charging voltage output, the lower the current. It would make sense for the charger to be drawing fewer amps from the wall at higher voltage, but then displaying the same current to the batteries on the display as before.
I have several devices for measuring current at 120VAC, but not at 240VAC.

Ben
You do know that measuing current is same in that you insert a meter in series with load and it doesn't matter too awful much on voltage.
You said "you have several devices for measuring current at 120 volts"? It will work perfect on 208/230 volt too.
So if you use a standard Lets say a Simpson 20 or 25 amp panel meter, you can insert it in series with load and it doesn't matter whether it is 120 , 208 or 240 volt AC. So if a switched mode charger is drawing too much current then it probably has too long of an extension cord, and or it is close to lowest allowable range of voltage to charger. I have an AC / DC clamp on meter with a loop hanging out in order to quickly measure current and a few hard wired NRI appliance testers in order to measure current also.
I noticed on my old post some of my pictures never loaded on "V" so I reloaded my cheater cord picture that I keep under my seat. So when I go to some ones house I can charge with Air Conditioner outlet and still use a regular extension cord. Also I have cheaters for welding plug to charge my bike. The LEAF comes with an adapter kit so it can charge any where too. My meter is Simpson HE 94 for measure magnetic field and Simpson 25 Amp analogue metre.
Some times I see current is too low on regular chargers and I use a boost transformer of about 30 volt boost in order to charge giving me 150 volt AC into any charger but if it is linear charger it will charge at higher amperage but draw more out of outlet it is plugged into. If it is switched mode it just runs cooler. Same charge current.
My VX-1 blew a circuit breaker one day because of too many extension cords. Battery died at bottom of the hill home. So I charged at 240 with cheater cord and instead of 14 amp or 15 amperes at 100 volt I fed it 240 volt thru standard extension cord using cheater pictured in V and current was 7 1/2 amperes. I might just install an elcheapo Shurite 20 amp meter in my VX-1 to see if I have voltage SAG around when I plug in some where. So just like you said current is proportional to voltage in. Thirteen amp means you have 120 volt in and 7 1/2 Amp means you have 208 volt in and 230/240 means 6.8 to 7 amps in. So it doesn't matter what voltage is used on ammeter just as long as it can carry the range you want to measure. ~

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PJD
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Keep ignoring my comments. No. I am not a troll. There is no need for any switch. Pin 4 to ground - diode and a 910 ohm resistor. That is all that is needed. It is purely analog - no digital logic.

bennelson
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

Hi PJD.

Didn't mean to make you feel ignored.

I built the box using both the resistors, and a switch, which is what all the specs called for. In researching this, it looked like I COULD have just used a diode and and 877-910 ohm resistor, but it wasn't exactly hard to add a switch. I do like being able to remotely activate the EVSE power, and cleanly cut power before unplugging.

martinwinlow
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

@ reikiman - DIY CHAdeMO is also being worked on by EVTV and Damien Maguire and $2k is a bit more expensive than they are suggesting - more like $1k and $900 of that is the port.

Whilst charging a ~3kWh pack at 3kW (or even 7) would be... OK (still 30 minutes / an hour), many of us have increased the capacity of our Vectrix's packs (5kWh currently in my case tho I am eying a 9KWh one for the future) and just because you have a 3 (or 7) kW *AC* supply does not mean you can use it - you would need an on-board 3 or 7kW charger, too. Not really very practical for a scooter! Using CHAdeMO you don't need any extra gubbins - just the port, a very small controller, a contactor and some chunky wiring.

I am aware the circuit I posted relates to the J1772 wiring (also applies to the Type 2, BTW) and thought I had made that pretty clear? MW

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oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

I'm in the states where the standard voltage is 120V. When I got my Vectrix I saw in the owner's manual that you can charge from 120V or 240V. The length of charging time would be the same, but you have a choice of outlets.

When I met Dana DeCosta (Vectrix Engineer) in 2009 I asked him if it would be advantageous to charge at higher voltage (and therefore lower current). He replied, "no" and explained that the bike was built for an international market (thus the 120V/240V compatibility), but the overall reliability for the onboard charger globally is better where the standard voltage is 120V, not 240V.

I'm guessing (I'm not an engineer) that the onboard charger has to work harder to convert 240V to 154V (the voltage of the battery pack) vs. converting 120V to 154V.

In any case - I never tried it with my bike - but I understand the desire to be able to access the growing network of J1772 chargers.

LithiumVectrix
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

PJD has got it right. To fit a J1772 socket all you need is 2 components and the cable. You can attach them to the back of the socket.
Just lookup the J1772 specs.

myvectrix2008
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

On a similar note, is there a solution, or an adaptor where we can use the UK Vectrix 3-pin plug to a box and at the other end is a Type 2 connector so it can be used at the normal 16A or 32A charge points?

I have a Source London RFID card for my Vectrix, but never actually used it as the BS1363 charge points seem to be few and far between as more EVs are using Type 2.

zeuz
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Re: Vectrix with J1772 Charging port

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