Crystalyte 409 on 66v

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magudaman
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Crystalyte 409 on 66v

I was considering buying a Crystalyte 409 26" wheel and running it on 66v volts. I was just considering 20 or 25 amps. Is this wise? Fast? Powerful? Has anyone tried this?

mr_exon
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

the more voltage you ad the more amps will be needed
I don't know about hub motors but my motors in my pocket bikes draw a lot of juice when i over volt them.
as much as 10-20 more amps then it normaly draws.

I just Re-laced my first spoked wheel! and it was trued by spinning it in my hand

andrew
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

You might get more responses if you post this in the "Bicycles and Pedelecs" section.

Sorry, without any additional information (such as how much current the motor draws for what speed in what conditions) I can't really say if it is better running the motor at higher voltage for you. If the current limit would be met when running a lower voltage system under x conditions, than running a higher system voltage under the same x conditions will result in no added power or speed because the controller just limits the voltage to keep the current from exceeding a predefined level.

Hope that helps some.

---
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo

[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
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Fechter
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

That should work great. I'm not sure what top speed to expect, but there's a simulator to predict it somewhere. I'll try to find it.

Klausbh
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Here is the link: http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

-Klaus

Also, why would a motor pull more current at higher voltage? I would have expected the opposite, i.e. 500W at 48V requires half the amps of 500W at 24V.

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Okay I ordered everything. I ended up buying the Roadrunner Motor 26 inch Wheel from BernsonEV.com for 229. I confirmed from multiple places that the wheel is basically a 408 wheel but heavier spokes and a couple other improvements. I also ordered the 36-72v 20 amp instant start controller from powerridestore.com for 122.50.

I also called Evdepot the distributor of the crystalyte motors and asked about the roadrunner having the same connectors as a normal 408 but he couldn't tell me for sure. I also asked him about running it at 72 volts and he told they burned up a couple motor and that is why they don't carry them. I told him I was only running the 20 amp one and he said that changed everything. He didn't even know they had a 20 amp one, they had done their original testing with 72v at 40 amps (almost triple the power I want to run). In the end I think I will be okay, I very excited and am finally progressing in to the Bicycles and Pedelecs arena. I will eventually post up my results and setup when everything gets here.

Drunkskunk
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

its been a few weeks. I'm currious if this has worked out. How well does the motor do on 66v?

CGameProgrammer
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

I agree with Klaus; voltage will never be limited by a current limit. There is a maximum power output, of 1440 Watts in this case.

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Drunkskunk,

Ha well your right it has been a couple weeks and I actually still have not got a the 409 yet. I couldn't find anyone willing to sell me one for under 330 dollars so I am still looking but it seems I'm finally getting close. I'll keep you all post.

Drunkskunk
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Well, if you haven't bought it yet, you might consider looking at one of the double tapped motors. there aren't many places that carry them, but Poweridestore.com does. I'm running a 4012/408 on a 700c wheel. having a choice of which winding to run for any given situation is nice, and the cost was only about $30 higher. The 4012 is low speed, high torque, and gets me up steep hills and quickly across intersections on busy roads. the 408 is fast.

andrew
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

I agree with Klaus; voltage will never be limited by a current limit. There is a maximum power output, of 1440 Watts in this case.

If you go back and look at how they used to limit the motor current and control speed then it becomes clear.

Before "chopper" controllers they added large high-power resistors in the circuit to resist the flow of current. Adding the resistor resulted in a lower voltage across the motor terminals. If you want to reduce current flow (and control power) you have to limit the voltage being applied across the motor terminals.

The voltage that can be applied to the motor that will "make it" draw a certain amount of current depends on the motor speed. The higher the speed, the more voltage that would need to be applied, because the motor is also a generator. Applying ohms law and the difference between the voltage applied and the voltage the motor is generating gives how much current it will draw.

---
Avatar taken from http://www.electricmotorbike.org/
Anyone got one they might want to sell?
My KZ750 Project: here E.T.A. 1 mo

[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/587-my-kz750-electric-motorcycle-project]KZ750 Motorcycle Conversion[/url]
[url=/forum-topic/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/588-fixing-my-chinese-scooter]900 watt scooter[/url]
Pic from http://www.electri

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Okay it took me almost two months to get it but I finally got a hold of a 409 motor. I purchased only the motor so now I have to get it built into a rim and I leave for Europe in 8 days ARG, so many projects so little time. I going to try to get it built up local before I leave but I will have to see what happens.

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

WELL I am finally back from my 5 week adventure through Europe and I had a great time and have caught up with my friends and family. NOW it 's time to start back up my e-bike project. I got my motor mounted in to a 26" rim by the power-ride store since I thought they would have the experience to do it right. I covered all the shipping cost on top of the build costs and it turned out costing about the same as getting it done locally, but I figure it would be okay since again "they had the experience". Well I looked at my rim today and the spokes seem pretty darn loose. Most are sort of snug but others can be moved fairly easily. In contrast with all my professionally build MTB rims the spokes on this 409 would be loose. So I'm not sure if this is how they normally do this and expect for me to get it trued up but I am pretty ticked off.

So today I got a hold of temporary bike to test out the whole system. I got everything strapped to the frame and first tested the motor on 33v. The results were fairly lethargic with poor acceleration and poor top speed. So with that option completely tossed I went ahead and started production on a 66v wiring harness for my A123 packs. After about an hour I completed the wiring harness and I loaded up my backpack with batteries, hooked up to the bike, and rolled outside. Now my first impression: VERY WICKED! Off the line the acceleration is not very impressive but at about 15 mph then crankin' to full throttle the acceleration is amazing. I topped out at about 30.5 mph but it was starting to get late so I was not willing to really push it. I tried a couple hills in my area and the bike could hold over 20 mph up most. This vehicle is by far my fastest I've had.

Set up specs:
Crystalyte Brushless 409 Hub motor
72v 20 amp instant start controller
66v battery array of 4 dewalt battery packs 2s, 2p

Now tomorrow I plan on running some more controlled tests and getting my drain brain up and running so I can get some consumption numbers for you all. I plan on getting some pics of my permanent setup but this current one is just embarrassing but I might show you all anyways. So keep watching and post any questions.

dugly
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Are you bypassing the battery management circuit on your battery packs and re-connecting it when charging or have you been able to run your setup (2p2s) through the BMS?

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Dugly,

Well you can see how I have my a123's wired here

As you can see my parallel configuration bypassed the BMS and I am using the same packs. The same connections are being used in the 2s 2p pack therefore it is also bypassing the BMS also. Charging is explained in the other posting.

Well I have ran about 1500 watt hours through the motor now and have found I absolutely love it. It has a perfect balance of speed and torque hitting up to 30 mph (no assist) and climbing the hills in my area with ease.
So far I am being very throttle heavy and am getting about 33 watt/h per mile or about 6 miles on 3 ah at 66v. The 20 amp controller seems to handle all the power just getting warm and peggin out at 25.6 amps peak (1600+ watts!!!) The motor after a full throttle runs gets pretty warm to the touch but never hot enough to not keep my hand on it indefinitely.
I have been watching craigslist like a hawk to find a good donor bike so I can finally have a finalized clean setup. I will be making a fresh thread of my finalized set up with lots of photos and hopefully some videos too!

dugly
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Thanks very much for the link to this thread. Sorry to bother you, I am new here and somehow missed this great information. I am looking forward to seeing your new thread.

I have some Dewalt batteries in transit and now believe that it will be safest to bypass the BMS circuit boards and reserve them only for recharging. After I get some experience with my bike, I plan to experimentally dig into the BMS circuit and see if it is feasible to use the batteries without modification.

Stleride
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

`
magudaman,
We repaired your above here link, it should work properly now.
Also noticed your great information site for a123:

Stleride
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Moderators are community volunteers who help keep V is for Voltage Forums running smoothly, and provide forum support.

`

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Russ
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

I am running a 408 on 66 volts without bypassing the controller. However, I use four Dewalts. The other week I used just two and everything went fine until I tried to do a wheely and overamped a controller. I have since fixed it and continue to run without bypassing the controller. Somebody needs to test these controllers to find out what their current limit is. A fuse would probably protect them, eliminating the need to bypass them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV4FxzprGfg

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

By controller do you mean the battery management circuit? A guy over on the rc forums reverse engineered one of the bms circuits and found a 15 amp fuse on the out put. Ill try and find the link.

EDIT:

Okay found the reverse engineered BMS page and actually might make a new thread too but it show the Internals of the BMS, wiring diagrams, and a ton more information. It is http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6281886#post6281886

abcd
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

You know I once read that and the calculation for, magnetic field strength of a coil,

has more to do with current.

For some reason they wanted to max out current.

So in theory you want very low resistance windings. This requires lower voltage and high current power source.

If you go to higher voltage, smaller wire, more turns you loose current , and torque.

So 5v x 100 a = 500 Watts and 500v x 1a = 500 Watts don't result in the same motor one has alot more torque.

Then again these days there are super conductors so perhaps all this old stuff is obsolete.

dugly
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

That is an interesting link. It shows that the two large blade receptors on either side of the battery connector make it possible to bypass the BMS and directly connect to the battery. Unfortunately, you are limited by a 15 amp fuse buried in the BMS board's epoxy potting. It looks like it may be possible to internally bypass the fuse with a wire between the battery's negative terminal and the negative blade receptor, but I am not sure that it is worth the effort. It would allow you to free the batteries of any external wiring making it easier and faster to pull the batteries for recharging, but you would have to build a frame for each battery that connects it with a homemade two bladed connector. I have checked the Dewalt parts site ( http://www.dewaltservicenet.com/ServiceNet/logon.asp ) and have not been able to find a part number for the connector; they only offer higher level assemblies that include the connector which are not cost effective.

magudaman
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Re: Crystalyte 409 on 66v

Finally got the motor and everything on to the final frame. Thanks for all the help and discussion! Check out the final product:

http://visforvoltage.org/vehicle/magudaman/1282

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