Water Fuel?????????

It's Brown's Gas all over again. Take some science, electrolysis, and dress it up in pseudo-science, magnecules, and call it a discovery. I can believe a local news crew is gullible enough to fall for this, but if the military is indeed sniffing around this crackpot's ideas I'll feast on the litter box tonight.

The torch is nothing new. Take a mixture of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen and you get a really hot flame. Vary that mixture, say increase the oxygen percentage until there is barely enough hydrogen to keep the torch lit and you will have a cool flame that burns nearly anything. A high concentration of oxygen causes most materials to combust vigorously if there is any ignition source (see Apollo 1). Unfortunately this gas mixture is scary dangerous because all it needs is a teeny spark and the whole cylinder will explode. That's what you get for mixing fuel and oxidizer.

As to the vehicle: you can use a gasoline engine to create electricity to split water which gets recombined to run the motor, but thermodynamics says it's more efficient to just use the gas to run the motor.

"we must be the change we wish to see in the world"

"A Humvee that runs on both water and gasoline".

hmmm ... did that news reporter really think it was either one or the other?
How about runs on gasoline and water (water vapor, steam injection or maybe even HHO)

... the inference sure is on the former, reality the latter.

It sure is fun to watch a snake oil salesman work the crowd though, isn't it?
Reminds me of the Zero Point Energy post a while back.

... rising water prices, I wish, not something us Washingtonians lose a lot of sleep over with annual precipitation ranging from 60 to 100+ inches here.

Dave B

MB-1-E
Electric - Bridgestone MB-1 Mountain Bike

But, but, but.... It gots to be true! Thay's showin it on Faux News!

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Okay can't sleep. Hrmmm interesting video, not sure I buy into it though.

A while back I was interested in generating hydrogen (H2) from a small windmill for a retirement cabin. I planned on using it as a methane/propane replacement for cooking gas. I had seen oxygen electrolyzers in the Navy (the H2 was dumped overboard) so I knew it was simple.

My search led me to a site where one of the forums was about HHO cells (Browns Gas). This is where the H2 and O2 that came out of the water were allowed to mix instead of being kept separate. The major interest was in displacing perhaps half your fuel with HHO generated by an extra alternator powering a cell.

Gasoline has 8 carbons in its molecule (Octane) and is surrounded by as many hydrogens as they can hold onto (18). Propane has 3 carbons and 8 Hydrogens, and methane has one carbon and 4 hydrogens. Its the hydrogen that burns, leaving the carbon in the exhaust. Burning pure H2 releases no carbon.

I point these things out to show the relative energy densities of the various fuels. When switching from gasoline to propane, the fuel is less dense so you need more fuel. More propane than gasoline means less room in the cylinder for the total air/fuel mix, which leads to less power in the same size engine.

Going from propane to methane drops power even more. Going from methane to H2 causes the same. My point is that the "gorilla cell" is very simple and I'm certain it works, but...

You're paying $2500 for something you could easily build yourself for under $1,000, and if you replace 3/4ths of your gasoline with HHO, it will cut the power in half (plus takes up your entire trunk with a large heavy cell filled with water).

If you could hack the fuel injection computer so that when you wanted to accellerate you would get full gasoline power, but during cruise you got the 3/4ths HHO for 1/2 power, that would work much better.

For $2500 I would rather build a Lithium E-Motorcycle

With his envisioned setup, basically water would be transformed into hydrogen and the hydrogen would be used as a "battery": It's basically converting electrical energy and storing it as chemical energy(via the hydrogen). The water itself is not a "fuel" per se, as the energy is not coming from the water but the electricity, so the gaseous H2O would be instead a battery. The question then becomes, what's the potential energy density of HHO? If you were to compress it to increase the energy density(to something useful), the temperature would increase as it's compressed thus possibly igniting it: The main way to solve this problem is to compress it slowly so that the heat would dissipate but, the question then becomes, could people tolerate some significant amount of time to "fill up" their car? Perhaps over night charge, yes, but what about long distance trips? Eh. I guess there could be specially designed large compression tanks that would deliver the hydrogen at the desired pressure at the ambient temperature so there'd be no problem. Wasn't a hydrogen fuel economy already considered, though?

A few years ago I wanted to design a multi-fuel system for my car:

Not sure if it could actually work, but I thought it was a good idea.

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arcticfox wrote

Sounds like a neat idea, it almost kind of sounds ilke a hybrid (half gas, half hydrogen half ethanol)

Errr, why exactly did you want to do this?

Also, regarding all the talk of HHO - there are lots of designs for cheap do it yourself set ups. See here for one: http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/. It's an interesting idea and it seems like it might work to increase fuel efficiency (as long as you take the extra step to "fool" the engine management system so it doesn't compensate for the lean burn). It's to do with the fact that HHO burns more efficiently than gasoline. When I say "it might work" I think it might give you a noticeable (say 10%?) improvement in fuel efficiency.

I have a colleague at work who commutes 80 miles per day and fuel costs are killing him. He was thinking of trying this out. Even a 10% savings would add up to real money for him.

Browns gas is very cool stuff. And very expensive stuff, since it's made of electricity. Just as soon as nuclear power is too cheap to meter we will all have browns gas generators in our garages. Hey wait a minuite, wasn't I promised electricity too cheap to meter by the year 2000? I can't belive it! I was lied to in grade school! And now that I think about it, where's my jet pack!

Be the pack leader.
36 volt sla schwinn trike
36 volt lifepo4 mongoose mtb

When liquid fuels evaporate into a gas, they have a MUCH greater volume. By introducing gasoline in tiny liquid droplets that then vaporise inside the cylinder (25 times a second) you can produce a lot of power in a small engine.

The gasoline to air ratio is about 14 parts air to one part gasoline by weight. Since H2 is less dense than gasoline and its used as a gas (instead of a denser liquid) running an engine on H2 means about 30% of the cylinder volume would be H2, leaving much less air (O2) for combustion than when using gasoline.

Burning pure H2 leaves no carbon to form CO or CO2, so Ford asked the question, What would it take to make one of our common 4-cylinder engines get 100 HP while using pure H2?

You have to compress three times as much H2/air into the cylinder to accomplish that. Using dry compressed H2 from a pressurized cylinder, when it is metered into the intake, its temperature drops, but compressing it enough to accomplish this goal still heated it enough to auto-ignite before the sparking event. Using well-established air-compressor data, the H2/air must be compressed in two stages and cooled in-between each.

For a "doable" off-the-shelf two-stage compression with spacing that allows cooling of both stages, a turbo-charger draws in the H2/air, and compresses it into a conventional air/air intercooler. Then, the H2/air is further compressed by a positive-displacement blower, and is then cooled by a air/freon cooler that is sandwiched between the blower and the intake.

The car has two complete and separate Air Conditioning systems, one for the people, and one for the blower.

Since you want to make H2 "on the fly" from liquid water, you must still use some gasoline to get it running. The more gaseous H2 you are able to produce, the more air/gasoline it displaces. As the H2 ratio increases, there will be a noticeable DROP in power. I suppose you could install a turbocharger with a variable wastegate to adjust the boost, but for all the money and trouble you just spent already, I would...

Buy an old 4-cylinder VW diesel, and run it off of free waste vegetable oil from restaurants, or...

Buy a 90's Geo Metro hatchback with fuel injection, 1.0L engine, and manual trans. Paint it, get some seat covers, new tires, new brakes. Rebuild the engine if neccesary, it gets 50 MPG...(or a new Yaris hatch?)

Buy a new 100 MPG scooter, or a large used scooter with a fried engine to convert to a lithium E-scoot...

$1500 will get you a SWEET E-bike set-up, and make your friends, co-workers and neighbors view you as wise and insightful...

PS, Jet-packs are OK (I guess), but when the weathers bad, where's
the plane/car I was promised to end traffic ??

Well,
I've made one of these "electrolyzers" too. I have my xb 600 modded to 60v for commuting to work, but when it's storming, I have to drive my Crown Vic which gets about 12mpg. AAAAAARRRGGGGHHH!!! As soon as my PWM arrives, I'm slapping my power tube on the Crown Vic. Hopefully, it will save me some gas. At $4.00 a gallon I need to save as much as I can. I say don't knock it till you try it, so I'll see what happens. Maybe the motor will blow up, so I'll have an excuse to make it an electric vehicle. LOL!

By all means try it! But it has been out there 2 years that I know of, and nobody has told me it worked, among my friends who did try it 2 years ago.

Be the pack leader.
36 volt sla schwinn trike
36 volt lifepo4 mongoose mtb

lets not be stupid, we have a shortage on oil prices going up, now people are into converting water into fuel...hey run out of water and then we are in real trouble, run out of oil well we have our electric bikes...and those who say when burning the hydrogen water comes out the tail pipe is full of something....

wolf3510 wrote

Here ya go....

http://www.itt.com/waterbook/world.asp

(not sure how up to date all of this information is)

OK, so you're all going to call me crazy (and me trying to be a respectable businessman and all) but...

A friend and I are trying to recreate Stan Meyers "water fuel cell". There are a couple of folks who have apparently succeeded in replicating his work using low power electrolysis to get about 5 times Faraday's theoretical maximum of gas production for standard (i.e. high power) electrolysis of water. The "trick" appears to be some form of harmonic vibration of the electrodes (transferred into the electrolyte) that reduces the energy needed to separate H2O into hydrogen and oxygen.

Do I think Meyers was murdered by the bad guys? No. Do I think we can break the laws of physics? No. Do I think we can make one of these and slap it into a water powered car? No (at first I hope to run a very small Sterling engine).

However, it does intrigue me. Why would these separate folks (with videos posted on You Tube so, hey, it must be real right? ) go ahead and create elaborate hoaxes? Or, alternatively, where did they screw up? I think I've slightly better odds at succeeding with this than winning the lottery (but bear in mind I don't buy lottery tickets!) - but it should be an interesting project. I think there's something there - I'm just not sure what that "something" will turn out to be...

So if the men in black come to get me then you'll know why!

Uh.... John? These men want to talk to you about something?

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thanks alias...good reading...http://www.itt.com/waterbook/world.asp

wolf wrote

Not a problem

I think if we ever could get more energy out of electrolysis than we do putting into it all of green nuts would have been modifying our Wankel Engines to run on hydrogen and oxygen long ago. Maybe what you need is a catalyst. I used KOH from crystal toilet bowl cleaner is the best one I know of.. Oh and John, make sure you use a water blubber for your experiments. The yahoo group watercar is filled with guys putting these contraptions in their car. One even put it in their BMW! Myth Busters tried one out and found a net loss in fuel efficiency.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter removed and replaced with Optima D35 battery.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better

If you put a Browns gas generator on a fuel injected car, it can throw off the air mass sensor and the oxygen sensor, leading to the computer enriching the mix.

Browns Gas is not a huge problem if you're only adjusted to get about 10% better gasoline mileage, But the more BG you add, the more gasoline/air you're displacing.

Since hydrogen is much less dense than gasoline, there will be a noticeable drop in horsepower. Get a very small light car. If it has two engine options, get the bigger engine.

Switching off the BG will get you more power when theres 2 or 3 people in the car, and switching it on will get you 10% better mileage when you're just cruising to work and don't need a lot of power.

They were all killed/threatened/bought off by the men-in-black - I know it's true I read it in National Enquirer!

Yeah, for boring old, traditional "let's not break the 2nd law of thermodynamics" type electrolysis there's lots of talk of different catalysts, different operating voltages and the like. I've seen claims of 10% through 50%. The best freebie design I know of is "Smack's Booster" (google it if you're interested).

Yeah, I agree with spinningmagnets below - with a booster you need to make sure the O2 sensor doesn't think you're running lean and start pumping more fuel. Do you know (a) what car MB used and (b) whether they used an adjusted signal to be able to control the signal from the O2 sensor.

Bubbler, schmubler and boosters be damned - I want to create enough of this stuff to run a (very small) engine. Actually, I absolutely plan on using a bubbler - and also designing in lots of safety features (pressure blow outs etc.) - and experimenting outside (don't want it pooling up in the rafters of the garage!)

I hope you realize that the above is all meant in good natured jest. I do appreciate the input and I do realize that in essence this is all "crackpot" science - it's kind of like a modern day alchemy. However, there are a couple of things to consider:
- the signal to noise ratio is terrible. There are a lot of claims and counter claims and myths and lies on all sides from all comers. BUT there is a SIGNAL there if you can tune out the noise.
- if Meyer was a con artist he was a clever one because he surprised some very clever people (including scientists who visited him and saw his water fuel cell in action)
- there are three or four seemingly independent folks who have put together Meyer's work (which is now in the public domain) and appear to be getting "over unity" results. Yeah, I know, impossible - but something appears to be going on - the question is what!?
- the interesting things appear to be:
-- a reliance on a reasonably complex frequency wave train (forgive me if my terms are wrong it's not my field - yet!)
-- a potential differential with very low current flow - obtained after the cathode becomes coated in a non conducting-oxide
-- how does one keep it in tune and keep the gas production high?

Apparently the folks who have made this work have managed to get 5 to 8 times the theoretical Faraday maximum out of their bench top system.

Yeah it probably won't work at all - but at least it might be a nice project to look at!

And if folks want to see why sparc5 says you need a bubbler check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8UovQFDRco

This has got to be one of the best quotes from anyone in a long time! It fits in so many different levels (eGrav included).

Kudos, John.

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Why thank you Mr. Fox.

BTW, I spent some time on "the project" today. I call it "The Pasta Jar of Death":

Next step: Put the hydrogen in your fuel cell and power our toys for those long trips.

If my memory serves me correctly, Myth Busters used an old pre-EFI carburated car.

I tried to run the lawn mower on brown's gas once. It had a serious problem with pre-ignition and flashbacks. There are some youtube videos of people running motors on it with better results then me, but hot spots on the car's cylinder would be something I'd be mindful of.

I went to Poland last new years with my girlfriend. All the gas stations were pumping unleaded as well as AutoGas (propane). The propane was half the price. The kits are going on ebay for around $2000 shipping, and propane tank that goes in the spare tire well included. Some kits let you use Natural Gas as well, so you can fill up at home. For the guy with the crown vic, if you want to get the biggest bang for your buck, proven technology, I'd recommend that.

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter removed and replaced with Optima D35 battery.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better

Personally, John, I dont believe it is possible without huge amount of loss in electricity compared to gain of actual hydrogen produced, but here is some info of the frequencies of water and hydrogen known in the communication industry to block signal transmission. It is a NASA graph copied from a SATCOM book; maybe this will help. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/slodown27/Frequencyandatmosphericeffects.jpg

If Einstein could figure out relativity from how many air bubbles are possible in a colloidal solution before a cascade release(in laymans terms - foam on beer before it fizzles), I guess you might get lucky.

John, one of your favorite movies MUST be Astronaut Farmer?
My favorite quote form that movie:
"sir how do we know you are not producing a weapon of mass destruction?", "Gentelmen if I were building a WMD, you wouldn't be able to find it".

Also: "my sixteen year old son is perfectly capable of launching me into space".

The other favorite movie quote of mine is from the 1980's movie on the NASCAR driver Junior Johnson's story:
"Excuse me sir, but your evidence is on fire".

Just a few one liners you can use when the Men in Black come to the door.

Famous words from Burt Monroe (Worlds Fastest Indian):
"If it blows up before the finish line, it's too hot, If it blows up after the finish line it's too cold. If it blows up on the finish line it's just right."
And that formula into the equation and your success is certain!

I'll keep watching the national news for an outbreak of global thermal nuclear warfare originating from MI. Then I know your sneaking up on peak performance.

Be safe, keep us posted.

Racermike
5 years ago I met Jesus and he total ruined my life. I have never been happier.

Hey! What happened to the updates?

XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter removed and replaced with Optima D35 battery.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better

I'm waiting for my amp gauge to arrive, then my "powertube" is going on the Crown Vic. If this doesn't work I'm gonna be mad! If it does, I'll make a bigger one and try running on water only. HEHEHEHEE! <--- maniacal laugh. Time will tell.

Which would be better: 1)adding more oxygen to the system, or 2)adding hydrogen? If we keep these two gases separate during production, maybe there's a chance for multiple uses. Oxygen for city driving, hydrogen for highway use...

Also, speaking about resonators, would nuking the water with a microwave beam during electrolysis help out in any way? Does it matter if the watter is cold or near boiling?

Just throwing out ideas.

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Started trying to condition my tubes this weekend - the box of tricks isn't performing. It's supposed to be outputting a rapidly switching 12V square wave (that gates a high frequency wave) but I can't get more than a couple hundred millivolts.

So the "Pasta Jar of Death" is actually more like the "Pasta Jar with a bad headache" - not nearly as menacing!

Note that this is just a problem with the electronics - I suppose I shouldn't expect world domination to be THAT easy...

I'll be diving into the innards of the black box in the next week or so.

I just got back from HomeDepot with a small handful of parts. I figured I'd try this as well.

This is my first design idea:

Quarter inch all-thread, fender washers, bolted so that each washer on one side overlaps washers on the other (I don't know why). Secured onto a PVC cap, then inserted into the PVC pipe (estimating 4" dia.pipe) and filled with distilled water. I'm wanting to design this to be under no pressure, or a free-flow design.

This is the HHO system; another two-pipe design will be for separate H2 an O areas.

John:
- why do you use a glass container?
- square wave? At what frequency? I've a computer programme that can output sine/square/ramp/sawtooth at 0-20kHz... why would I use it and what's special about square wave?

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- why do you use a glass container?

I don't use glass - it's acrylic. I want something I can see the bubbles.

- square wave? At what frequency? I've a computer programme that can output sine/square/ramp/sawtooth at 0-20kHz... why would I use it and what's special about square wave?

There are two basic approaches to electrolysis. The first is the well understood form of "high power" electrolysis. This is what things like the Smack Booster uses. They pump anywhere from 120W to 480W (12V 10A to 12V 40A) through water with an electrolyte (often KOH). This power comes from the vehicle alternator and allows for better combustion of the fuel. Claims range from 10% to 50% fuel efficiency gains. This is what zerogas is doing with his crown vic.

The other approach is "low power electrolysis" (it's not actually clear if it really is electrolysis or "something else"). With this setup folks have managed to put in as little as 0.5A at 12V (6W) and get significant production of Hydroxy Gas. Do a google on "Stanley Meyers Water Fuel Cell". A key component of this approach seems to be the conditioning of the cathode with a highly resistive oxide which limits current flow and the pulsing of the electric current. There's a low (100Hz?) frequency square wave which gates a high (40kHz) frequency wave. Some have hypothesized that the resonant frequency of the electrodes might be important. There are two apparently successful approaches to this. Stan Meyers used concentric tubes with the cathode as the inner tube (this is the design we're following) - search for Ravi Water Fuel Cell to see a you tube of one in action. Bob Boyce uses a set of square electrodes (and an even weirder set of three frequency generators).

The freaky thing with the "low power" approach is that you can get "over unity" - i.e. you can get more power out (in terms of combustible hydroxy gas) than power in (in the form of electricity). Apparently Stan Meyers got 17 times the theoretical Faraday maximum where as Ravi has managed around 5 to 8 times (even 1.00000000001 "breaks" the laws of physics - obviously it doesn't really break anything if it works at all it's because of some misunderstanding in our current thinking).

For the best description google this stuff.

I'm not sure your design is very effective - is one column the cathode and one the anode? If so, only the overlapping part would be effective. If not and the anode and cathode alternate up each column then conversely you wouldn't want any overlap. But perhaps I'm missing something? (aside from a few marbles)

Thanks.

My design just came to me while I was standing in HomeDepot wondering what I went in there for (I still don't know why).

Searching around the net, I did find this info:

I think it may be incorrect information (something tells me ). I've never seen H2 production be as violent as shown in those pictures.

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Then I find this:

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HOLY SH**!!! That was alot of HHO!

Just a word of caution: don't mistake a chemical reaction for a catalyst.

Check out this analysis of the Genepax Water Car from Treehugger:

One thing that helps fuel the conspiracy rumors surrounding water cars is that the media run these segments where they show "water cars" actually driving around, and it all seems to work, and then we never hear about them again. People figure that Big Oil (or the Illuminati, whatever) is suppressing the technology. The reality is more mundane: It is actually possible to make a car look like it runs on water without breaking the first law of thermodynamics. The way it's usually done is with metal hydrides. These react with water to produce hydrogen, which is then used to power the car. But since these hydrides will deplete with time, they need to be replaced and so they are actually the fuel, not the water. And you can be sure that more energy will go into producing them than will be taken out, making them an energy carrier, just like a battery.

Yep, fair point. However, the "Stanley Meyer's" approach uses straight tap water (or distilled water if you like) with no additional catalysts or chemicals. The water is certainly depleted over time. I'm not sure about whether the SS electrodes deplete or not.

The theory is that the frequency somehow reduces the energy required to break the chemical bonds. Kind of like how a resonant wave can focus energy. That's my conceptual model of this (which could be COMPLETELY WRONG).

Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on there. Also, with an open top container and all that sloshing around I'm not sure how he figures what he's produced in gas and what he's spilled

However, that's the general idea - but the folks that I've heard of that have been successful have all used concentric tubes. Check out this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3079.html (start at the beginning and look for Ravi's posts).

I'll dig up the Ravi videos tonight and post a link.

EDIT: And what's in the bottom of that cylinder in those pictures? One thing I'm fairly sure of is that we won't all be running our cars for 1500 miles off of four AA batteries... (or will we? )

EDIT2: It's sulfuric acid at the bottom - so this is just like a lead acid battery during charging which produces hydrogen. Whether it really produces the volumes of gas reported seems questionable (and also he'd have likely blown himself up if he had done this).

One step closer to putting my HHO generator on my Crown Vic. As soon as the shunt comes in for my amp gauge, I'll be ready. I was messing around with it today.....
www.youtube.com/v/BdWtjArsCdM
It's not ALOT of HHO, but it's a start.

Is anyone going to be using Potassium Hydroxide (KOH)?

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Not me, but I expect zerogas will be (or some other electrolyte)

You've got to remember that there's two completely different approaches being covered in this thread.

zerogas is using standard, or "brute force" electrolysis. He's putting high amps into his cell and getting a moderate return of HHO. The advantage he gains is the HHO improves the combustion process, allowing a leaner fuel mix which achieves better MPG. He's not "releasing extra energy" - he's taking more energy from the altenator and producing HHO which improves the efficiency of the burn process. The science of this style of electrolysis is well understood and not debated. The debate is whether you can produce enough HHO and improve combusion enough to increase MPG by 5, 10 or 50%.

zerogas - check out zerofossilfuel on youtube, particularly the videos starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjxKsCdpr0Y. He explains a simple to build controller that can keep your amperage draw constant as the temperature in your HHO cell rises.

What I'm trying is high frequency low power "electrolysis". It's not even clear it's electrolysis at all. In this model it's all about "releasing extra energy". Conventional science tells us that's not possible in this situation. However, science has no problem about converting energy from one form to another - for example drop a match in the forest and you get a lot more energy out than you put in (don't try that at home kids). So, the debate to me really seems to be about the most efficient way of transforming H20 into H2 and O2 (there are some folks who insist on the idea that monatomic hydrogen and oxygen are formed - but they're crazy, just ask a chemist ) To look at it another way can "high frequency" be the match to burn down the forest (split the water into H2 and O2)?

Both zerogas and I are looking to get Hydroxy to play with - but we're approaching it differently. Zerogas is guaranteed to succeed - the question is can he produce enough to increase the fuel efficiency of his land barge. I'm likely not going to succeed - but I'm going to have fun trying!

My current status is that my PWM box of tricks (to produce the required wave form) is dead. My partner in crime is fixing it for me. He's already done his first trial run and got a few bubbles and brown mucky water. This is good! It's a pathetic amount of Hydroxy but it's behaving as expected for this stage. Next comes the conditioning... Hopefully I'll get my black box back tomorrow or Friday and I can see if I can breathe some life into this thing.

I understand there are 2 different ways here of doing this. I'm doing the brute-force method for now as well - until someone posts a schematic of the ZPE device.

BTW, if I don't like the results of my brute force design, I think I can use the same equipment for my scalar transmitter .

What metals are you guys using? Stainless, brass, aluminium, zinc-plated...?

Hydrogen eye candy:

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Hydrogen interests:

http://www.dishprodirect.com/hydrogenassist.htm

Hydrogen leak versus gas leak:

Gen pics:

This one is on sale for $1725:

"Makes 200 litres oxy-hydrogen per hour"

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I don't have a relay on mine. Should I have one? Where do I need to add it in?

Oh, yeah. This stuff really is VERY explosive. I haven't glued the cap on my "power tube" for obvious filling reasons. When we had it running, I was holding a lighter to the output tube to see if I could get a flame. Then, KAPOW!!!!!!!! This thing shot the cap off so high, that it nearly hit my friend in the forehead! I kept looking for it to fall and about 2 or 3 seconds later it landed right beside me! I have no idea how high it shot the cap, but it was a powerful blast. I have no doubt that if you could make enough HHO per minute you COULD run a car on it.

Well, you might be reducing the amount of energy that's wasted in the process, but basic thermodynamics still applies: the amount of energy required to break the chemical bonds is always greater than the energy recovered by restoring those same bonds. At best, you are getting closer to the break-even point.

Of course, reducing the amount of wasted energy in a process is always a good endeavor, especially if you have a grand plan like making hydrogen using solar-generated electricity, and then storing the hydrogen for later use.

Zerogas;

you should be on the "Myth Busters" show

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=hydrogen-power-on-the-cheap

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Dude, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. Now, is it really worth it?

Just kidding. I really don't know much about the device - I'm just playing follow along with a friend who is the true "mad scientist". I'm more like "a merely demented lab technician's apprentice"... If I get it all working this weekend then I'll start a blog entry with schematics and pretty pictures and you can play along too.

Well, actually I'll go for the parenthetical solution - I'm just COMPLETELY WRONG with my conceptual model. I am still curious as to the potential for results. I've seen enough claims and video evidence to say "it's worth a look". If, by some amazing chance, we can get the production levels they claim - then I'll leave it to far cleverer folks than me to explain it.

Dude! this is why you need a bubbler between your HHO cell and wherever you burn the gas - it stops the flashback in a less dramatic fashion (unless of course you wanted to nail your friend with a ballistic device)

LMAO! I have the bubbler, we just weren't using it because we wanted to make fire.

@zerogas:

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My stuff so far: