Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

BTW, because I will be buying an XM-3000 for demos and long term testing I am selling my XM-2000.

It will come fitted with new Greensaver SP27-12 batteries (cost $500). If you want it can also come ready wired for bank charging and with 5 Vector chargers. Price is still TBD and is negotiable.

You can contact me via PM on this board or via the contact form on my website: http://revevllc.com/contact.php

Let me know if you're interested.

Alas and alack! X-Treme have changed things and are currently listing the price of the XM-3500 as $4000 (up from the previous $3000).

On the one hand - like Andrew I was surprised at the $3000 price so I'm not surprised to see the increase and I still think it represents good value for money (subject to actually seeing and using the bike). However, when I emailed the owner of X-Treme it appears that he's not set on the price yet - so it may change again (possibly even going back down towards the previous price).

Please remember nothing is set in stone for the XM-3500 - this is all early look information that is subject to change. The current availability is now listed as "mid June".

I expect things to shift around a little bit more - and I won't be taking orders until the production bike (not a sample) is in the country. In fact I've already asked Greg to let me buy the first one out the container... ;-)

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The XM-3000 is still listed as $1999 with a delivery date now listed as "first week of May".

Eric -

I can ask but I doubt it. In fact, I don't think it would be a wise choice. The bigger motor in the XM-3500 is likely to pull 80A continuous compared to the 50A continuous in the XM-2000. This higher draw would likely be too much for the SP27-12s so one would have to step up to larger batteries and that would come with associated packaging problems. The lithium batteries are already at a higher capacity (40Ah) and will handle the 2C rate far better.

In fact I think we're likely to see the opposite - rather than using silicones in bigger bikes I think lithiums will appear in smaller bikes (maybe in the 3rd generation that I mentioned above?).

Sorry - I realize this is not particularly good news for a silicone battery vendor. This is all just my hypothesis - I'll ask the question and see what answer comes back.

Well, I guessed it would come to this at some point. Some vague statements about "bad quality" and generalizing all Chinese scooters as bad. I have to disagree with both PJD and DanCar.

PJD -

My guess is that folks like Justin were disappointed because they didn't have realistic expectations and the person selling them the bike didn't want to risk loosing a sale by giving a clear picture of the state of affairs. I hope to be able to see some clear improvements in the XM-3000 over the XM-2000. If the generation 2 is better than the generation 1 that's got to be a good thing right? That's got to point to the fact that there's a process in place for addressing concerns.

My sales record shows that I'd rather tell the whole story than make a sale (translation I hardly sold any XM-2000's and they ran out of stock before I was comfortable there was a fairly complete story on how to address any shortcomings). Rather than a DIY project there's no reason someone can't pay a technician to install any and all of the stuff required.

Yes, I agree that the bike will likely "need" a BMS. But, I can also understand the manufacturers desire not to fit one - even though I do think it's a mistake on their behalf.

NovaScooters is onto the right idea with giving the customer the option of them fitting a BMS and in return offering an improved battery warranty. I'm not a big enough operation to be able to support that. I'd need to become a licensed dealership which is likely a $100,000 proposition.

So the part I disagree with is that I think one can recommend a Chinese EV scooter for commuting - as long as one tells the whole story and encourages the new owner to have the shortcomings addressed as part of the initial purchase.

Dan -

The BMS is a good starting point to consider the "quality" of the E-Fun range compared to the XM range. Does the E-Fun come with a BMS or a CMS? I suspect not - thus they suffer the same major Achilles heel. I'd go so far as to say that the provision of a good BMS is the single most important feature on any electric vehicle (because batteries are usually the weakest link in the chain). What makes the E-Fun better quality from your point of view? The fact that it costs more? The fact that you sell them? Or some specific examples of better quality engineering? Please don't come into a post on a product announcement that is genuinely interesting to folks and cast vague criticisms - it doesn't do either of us or the reader any good. If you have specific reasons that can be backed up with data on why the E-Fun is better then please share them - but on a separate thread.

I'm not saying that an E-Fun might not be better than an XM-2000. But even if it is neither of us can possibly say that an XM-3500 or XM-3000 is better or worse.

BTW, the price discrepancy has absolutely nothing to do with Mountain Chen so how the heck you can try and tie this to the quality of the bike is beyond me.

Personally I look forward to the day when an independent magazine will do side by side comparisons of all the bikes in the same class and offer a detailed breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses. All this "mud slinging" is just so much noise and ends up hurting both the person slinging and the person receiving.

PJD - I don't disagree with you that the past state of affairs with 2 wheel EVs hasn't been fraught with mistakes. However, I think you extrapolate a little too much and that you have insufficient up to date data to paint quite so dire a picture.

What someone thinks even with the best of intentions is not the same as responding to what the data is telling you. The data tells me that there was one major and several minor issues with the XM-2000. The minor issues can all be corrected with a professional pre-delivery inspection. The major issue was the batteries and was in fact two fold: (1) the batteries were not suited to the task & (2) there was no balancing system. The XM-3000 addresses (1) but not (2). Thus it still makes sense to recommend the end customer have a BMS installed or using bank charging.

If the minor issues are not addressed immediately they can easily become major problems. However, most scooter shops should be able to address them. However, I've found there's a reluctance by both the consumer and the local scooter shops to take this course of action. You don't need half of an EE tech degree, we need "EV Scooter Ownership for Dummies". I hope to start posting some basic information on my site in the next month or so.

I have to disagree there. My XM-2000 top speed is over 40mph on flat ground as measured by GPS. That matches the claimed spec. As far as range is concerned one needs to read the fine print - the range is usually quoted at an unrealistically slow speed. I intend to address that much more clearly by quoting a "real world range". However, the XM products have to compete in the market place so we kind of have to quote those maximum ranges that other folks use. Otherwise the casual observer will simply say "hey, those Brand-X models go twice as far as the XM brand".

That's certainly a safe and conservative position to take and one that your personal experience bears out. However, the choices of bikes are progressing quickly. From my perspective you're suffering from the issues of being an early adopter and you don't seem ready yet to give the newer bikes a "second chance". That's obviously your choice - but when do you think you'll be ready to recommend two wheel EVs to folks?