Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

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jdh2550_1
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Hi,

X-Treme have just officially announced their new product lineup of large scooters (moped and motorcycle size).

The XM-3000 will have a 3000W motor, 60v (5 x 12V) Greensaver SP27-12, an upgraded controller with re-gen braking and an improved charger. More details can be found here: http://www.revevllc.com/xm3000.php Expected availability is April 25th.

The XM-3500 will have a 3500W motor, 60v of LiFe batteries (supplier is unconfirmed at this point but I expect they are 40Ah Thundersky LFP cells), re-gen braking and charger. It will be in a bigger frame than the 3000 - think more like Vectrix rather than the XM-2000. More details can be found here: http://www.revevllc.com/xm3500.php Expected availability is June

I am working on setting up a contract to be able to sell these bikes via my website - http://www.revevllc.com

If you want to be kept notified of any updates to these specs please feel free to sign up to the email list here: http://www.revevllc.com/contact.php

Thanks.

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

BTW, because I will be buying an XM-3000 for demos and long term testing I am selling my XM-2000.

It will come fitted with new Greensaver SP27-12 batteries (cost $500). If you want it can also come ready wired for bank charging and with 5 Vector chargers. Price is still TBD and is negotiable.

You can contact me via PM on this board or via the contact form on my website: http://revevllc.com/contact.php

Let me know if you're interested.

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

andrew
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

You got to be kidding on the price for the XM-3500. $3k with LiFePo4? Can't wait to hear more. I bet the price will be more like $4k. The regen would be nice.

Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Yes,the XM3500 will come from me.... these would be the cheapest lithium power Maxi scooter because we are the biggest buyer of TS40AH battery who give us very good discount prices.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2948-13%E2%80%9D-full-rim-motor-scooter

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Andrew - yep, I just checked again (to make sure I didn't misread anything): "Retail pricing will be around $2999" availability is now listed as "mid May".

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jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Alas and alack! X-Treme have changed things and are currently listing the price of the XM-3500 as $4000 (up from the previous $3000).

On the one hand - like Andrew I was surprised at the $3000 price so I'm not surprised to see the increase and I still think it represents good value for money (subject to actually seeing and using the bike). However, when I emailed the owner of X-Treme it appears that he's not set on the price yet - so it may change again (possibly even going back down towards the previous price).

Please remember nothing is set in stone for the XM-3500 - this is all early look information that is subject to change. The current availability is now listed as "mid June".

I expect things to shift around a little bit more - and I won't be taking orders until the production bike (not a sample) is in the country. In fact I've already asked Greg to let me buy the first one out the container... ;-)

-----

The XM-3000 is still listed as $1999 with a delivery date now listed as "first week of May".

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PJD
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John, (or Mountain Chen)

I understand that the XM3500 will likely use Thundersky LFP-40 cells. Do you what kind of battery management system will be used, if any? The real advantages of these cells is only going to be realized with good battery management that prevents overcharge and undercharge.

fisher727
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John

Any chance that with the price increases in the xm-3500 lithium powered scooter, we could see an xm-3500 with the sp 36 Silicone Batteries that had powered the scooter in earlier pictures and in other earlier info on the scooter. Maybe they could price a Silicone Powered xm-3500 at $2,500.

Eric Fisher
www.Siliconebatteriesusa.com

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

PJD - I don't have any detailed information on the XM-3500 to answer your question. I suspect that there will be no BMS and it will use a string charger. Just like the XM-3000 and the XM-2000.

This is certainly not optimal - but when I was inquiring about using Thundersky LFP's with Todd at Electric Motorsport he said that they didn't use a BMS on their lithium bikes. I don't see a mention of one on their new GPR-S either. However, as mama always says "two wrongs don't make a right"!

I expect that just like with the lead acid bikes I will be recommending folks add a CMS / BMS - I'm hoping that http://TPPacks.com system will prove suitable.

I hope that the third generation of bikes will include CMS / BMS from the factory. (FYI, I consider XM-2000 gen 1 & XM-3000 and XM-3500 gen 2).

All the above is speculation - when I lay my hands on a bike I'll be sure to post an update.

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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Eric -

I can ask but I doubt it. In fact, I don't think it would be a wise choice. The bigger motor in the XM-3500 is likely to pull 80A continuous compared to the 50A continuous in the XM-2000. This higher draw would likely be too much for the SP27-12s so one would have to step up to larger batteries and that would come with associated packaging problems. The lithium batteries are already at a higher capacity (40Ah) and will handle the 2C rate far better.

In fact I think we're likely to see the opposite - rather than using silicones in bigger bikes I think lithiums will appear in smaller bikes (maybe in the 3rd generation that I mentioned above?).

Sorry - I realize this is not particularly good news for a silicone battery vendor. This is all just my hypothesis - I'll ask the question and see what answer comes back.

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PJD
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John,

I am in the middle of setting up a Thundersky pack for one of my e-max's right now.

Based on my observations so far, selling a bike with LiFePO4's that are simply dropped in the bike from the factory without BMS is pretty risky. Each of my cells came at a different state of charge, so, even with a BMS, and especially without one, you will need to charge each of those 20 cells to an identical state of charge before the bike is ready for bulk-charging and riding. After that, maybe the cells will stay reasonably balanced on their own, maybe not, but considering the replacement price per cell is about $100 (not counting the headache of finding the bad cells), the risk of some very unhappy customers is very high.

You may want to revisit Jason's site, http://e-max.us/ to get a feel of how a non DIY'er or non EV hobbyist reacts when the run up against the limitations of Chinese QA/QC.

Gary's LVC module in your link will protect the cells over discharge which is the worst thing to do to them, but at the probable cost of reduced range and the overcharging some cells. BTW, there seems to be a consensus that in order to have any chance of getting those 1000 to 2000 cycles, the cells should be CC-CV charged to about 3.7 volts, not 4.2 volts like the Thundersky data sheet shows. As far as the full BMS, designer Bob Mckee is supposedly still working out bugs. And they will only be in kit form for now.

I know this isn't the particular forum for tech talk, but you know what an unmitigated PR-disaster these Chinese scooters have been so far for those of us promoting 2 wheel electric transportation.

fisher727
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John

I know that a SP27-12 would be to small for the XM-3500 and the battery that has been used in the early XM-3500 test models was the SP36-12 a battery which is about 70% bigger weighing 17.5 Kg. compared to the SP27-12 which weighs 10.7Kg.

Eric Fisher
www.Siliconebatteriesusa.com

DanCar
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Mountain chen wrote:

Yes,the XM3500 will come from me.... these would be the cheapest lithium power Maxi scooter because we are the biggest buyer of TS40AH battery who give us very good discount prices.

A pricing mistake of $1K. This should give you a clue about quality. Others who have dealt with this vendor only report horror stories of quality and other issues.

PJD
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Dan-car,

They are ALL bad quality. At this point I can only recommend any Chinese e-scooter or even the Vectrix for that matter, as an EV project/hobby.

Mik
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

PJD wrote:

Dan-car,

They are ALL bad quality. At this point I can only recommend any Chinese e-scooter or even the Vectrix for that matter, as an EV project/hobby.

The Vectrix is not a good project either because it is too complex and full of custom bits and pieces and software.

And the warranty conditions exclude just about everything apart from looking at it...

Mr. Mik

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andrew
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

DanCar, I don't follow. Plenty of XM owners are happy after doing some improvements and fixing things. And the new 2008 Zapino looks like its decent quality, though we need more reviews. I would judge from what I'm reading that Mt. Chens product is better quality than the people making the EVTA Z20.

At least we have an official manufacturing rep on the forum---Mountain Chen. Where's the guy manufacturing E-fun?

DanCar
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

andrew wrote:

DanCar, I don't follow. Plenty of XM owners are happy after doing some improvements and fixing things.

Not exactly high quality is it? And don't give the quality that is there to Chen.

Quote:

And the new 2008 Zapino looks like its decent quality, though we need more reviews.

Not made by Chen. That is why you see an improvement from 2007 to 2008. 2007 was Chen.

Quote:

I would judge from what I'm reading that Mt. Chens product is better quality than the people making the EVTA Z20.

Are you going to be happy with better quality than the Z20?

Quote:

At least we have an official manufacturing rep on the forum---Mountain Chen. Where's the guy manufacturing E-fun?

Yes, he likes to talk, whether it is exaggerated or overly optimistic to the point of being false doesn't matter.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Well, I guessed it would come to this at some point. Some vague statements about "bad quality" and generalizing all Chinese scooters as bad. I have to disagree with both PJD and DanCar.

PJD -

My guess is that folks like Justin were disappointed because they didn't have realistic expectations and the person selling them the bike didn't want to risk loosing a sale by giving a clear picture of the state of affairs. I hope to be able to see some clear improvements in the XM-3000 over the XM-2000. If the generation 2 is better than the generation 1 that's got to be a good thing right? That's got to point to the fact that there's a process in place for addressing concerns.

My sales record shows that I'd rather tell the whole story than make a sale (translation I hardly sold any XM-2000's and they ran out of stock before I was comfortable there was a fairly complete story on how to address any shortcomings). Rather than a DIY project there's no reason someone can't pay a technician to install any and all of the stuff required.

Yes, I agree that the bike will likely "need" a BMS. But, I can also understand the manufacturers desire not to fit one - even though I do think it's a mistake on their behalf.

NovaScooters is onto the right idea with giving the customer the option of them fitting a BMS and in return offering an improved battery warranty. I'm not a big enough operation to be able to support that. I'd need to become a licensed dealership which is likely a $100,000 proposition.

So the part I disagree with is that I think one can recommend a Chinese EV scooter for commuting - as long as one tells the whole story and encourages the new owner to have the shortcomings addressed as part of the initial purchase.

Dan -

The BMS is a good starting point to consider the "quality" of the E-Fun range compared to the XM range. Does the E-Fun come with a BMS or a CMS? I suspect not - thus they suffer the same major Achilles heel. I'd go so far as to say that the provision of a good BMS is the single most important feature on any electric vehicle (because batteries are usually the weakest link in the chain). What makes the E-Fun better quality from your point of view? The fact that it costs more? The fact that you sell them? Or some specific examples of better quality engineering? Please don't come into a post on a product announcement that is genuinely interesting to folks and cast vague criticisms - it doesn't do either of us or the reader any good. If you have specific reasons that can be backed up with data on why the E-Fun is better then please share them - but on a separate thread.

I'm not saying that an E-Fun might not be better than an XM-2000. But even if it is neither of us can possibly say that an XM-3500 or XM-3000 is better or worse.

BTW, the price discrepancy has absolutely nothing to do with Mountain Chen so how the heck you can try and tie this to the quality of the bike is beyond me.

Personally I look forward to the day when an independent magazine will do side by side comparisons of all the bikes in the same class and offer a detailed breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses. All this "mud slinging" is just so much noise and ends up hurting both the person slinging and the person receiving.

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Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

PJD wrote:

John, (or Mountain Chen)

I understand that the XM3500 will likely use Thundersky LFP-40 cells. Do you what kind of battery management system will be used, if any? The real advantages of these cells is only going to be realized with good battery management that prevents overcharge and undercharge.

Yes,correct,charging of LFP battery is very important. We will provide string charger and Bank charger (simple BMS) to be optional in the meantime.

just control the charging Voltage,then LFP battery would be very balance and stable.

Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Yes,XM-3500 could be SP-36 silicon version with same performance as heavy Efun D (16kgs BB battery,2hr is 35AH).

But the 190kgs body is very dangerous especially when going down long slope.

and the steering would be not flexible at all.

We don't recommend PB battery version on Maxi scooter.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

fisher727 wrote:

John

I know that a SP27-12 would be to small for the XM-3500 and the battery that has been used in the early XM-3500 test models was the SP36-12 a battery which is about 70% bigger weighing 17.5 Kg. compared to the SP27-12 which weighs 10.7Kg.

I've not seen an "early XM-3500 test model" so you have the advantage on me there. I only became aware of it when it was already using TS LFP40s.

If they do release a silicone version I guess it comes down to whatever the final costs are and whether there's enough price differentiation possible to make it worthwhile. In my opinion (and it's just my opinion and has no bearing on X-Treme's decisions), it would likely have to be on the order of a $1000 difference.

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

fisher727 wrote:

John

I know that a SP27-12 would be to small for the XM-3500 and the battery that has been used in the early XM-3500 test models was the SP36-12 a battery which is about 70% bigger weighing 17.5 Kg. compared to the SP27-12 which weighs 10.7Kg.

Eric Fisher
www.Siliconebatteriesusa.com

Yes, that's my first testing sample with SP-36 in 2007,see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HJhNYs34g

But I don't want to recommend heavy PB battery on Maxi scooter,it is not saftey at all.

PJD
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John,

Actually, the e-max seller - the now defunct Texas e-rider, also thought he was selling a reliable product - and probably even the German distributor.

Having a product that doesn't need major electric/electronic troubleshooting and repair withing a few months of purchase, with no one around to repair them, often with no source of parts, and not needing half of an EE tech degree and equipment to maintain the scooter when the average consumer wouldn't even recognize a voltmeter... these are not an unrealistic consumer expectations.

Oh, and even when it is working perfectly - it never actually performs as advertised - top speed is always at least 10-20% slower and range is half that advertised.

When I get my inquiries about e-max, when asked about where they can get an electric scooters, I tell them for now that they will need to have considerable electric/electronic, plus ordinary motorcycle/automotive repair skills to own one, otherwise, they should get a Vespa.

Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

jdh2550_1 wrote:

I'm not saying that an E-Fun might not be better than an XM-2000. But even if it is neither of us can possibly say that an XM-3500 or XM-3000 is better or worse.

To be a manufacturer,I am not convincingly to say who is better,I just want to remind John and Dan to view from the technical proof :

1)13" wheel motor EFUN D and 10" wheel motor Efun C are different class vehicles who has limited space of different size batteries but they use the same power BLDC motor,this is very unprofessional.

Efun C have been post shorten range after speed released in only 2 month.see http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3236-zapino-range-problem

More and more months will come out more and more batteries problem on Efun C. it would be very fetal problem.

But my ZAPINO 2007 already came out more than one year and never heard a battery complain by now.

several months is not enough to judge a good scooter or not,

2) EFUN C is 15kgs heavier than 2007 ZAPINO and all extra 15kgs concentrate on rear parts which cause the fetal center stand safety problem.see http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3232-z20ab-r20-center-stand-safety

3) ABS is useless at 30mph speed,the same to water proof wiring bundle,both points are just a flubdub to fool unprofessional buyer,even Honda,Suzuki don't use such bundles on small AMP signal wiring.

4) XM3000 and XM2000 would be definitely different size motor with matching battery support,to ensure of longer battery life.

5) I admit 2007 ZAPINO have slight problems on motor & rim (it is not tyre problem as Robert complain,it is rim design problem) who is the same maker as Efun. Now we have set up the motor plant together and every quality detail is under control.

fisher727
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Chen

You say that the XM-3500 would be dangerous with lead batteries. Is this a problem with the strength of the frame of the XM-3500 or something else you did not state the concern you have. I noticed the next generation of electric scooters coming to market we see 13" wheels and motors that are capable of 50 mph and they are offering battery choices which include lead batteries. The lead battery powered 13" scooters will weigh about 400 pounds, 100 pounds lighter than some bikes I have owned.

Eric Fisher
www.Siliconebatteriesusa.com

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

PJD - I don't disagree with you that the past state of affairs with 2 wheel EVs hasn't been fraught with mistakes. However, I think you extrapolate a little too much and that you have insufficient up to date data to paint quite so dire a picture.

PJD wrote:

Actually, the e-max seller - the now defunct Texas e-rider, also thought he was selling a reliable product - and probably even the German distributor.

What someone thinks even with the best of intentions is not the same as responding to what the data is telling you. The data tells me that there was one major and several minor issues with the XM-2000. The minor issues can all be corrected with a professional pre-delivery inspection. The major issue was the batteries and was in fact two fold: (1) the batteries were not suited to the task & (2) there was no balancing system. The XM-3000 addresses (1) but not (2). Thus it still makes sense to recommend the end customer have a BMS installed or using bank charging.

Quote:

Having a product that doesn't need major electric/electronic troubleshooting and repair withing a few months of purchase, with no one around to repair them, often with no source of parts, and not needing half of an EE tech degree and equipment to maintain the scooter when the average consumer wouldn't even recognize a voltmeter... these are not an unrealistic consumer expectations.

If the minor issues are not addressed immediately they can easily become major problems. However, most scooter shops should be able to address them. However, I've found there's a reluctance by both the consumer and the local scooter shops to take this course of action. You don't need half of an EE tech degree, we need "EV Scooter Ownership for Dummies". I hope to start posting some basic information on my site in the next month or so.

Quote:

Oh, and even when it is working perfectly - it never actually performs as advertised - top speed is always at least 10-20% slower and range is half that advertised.

I have to disagree there. My XM-2000 top speed is over 40mph on flat ground as measured by GPS. That matches the claimed spec. As far as range is concerned one needs to read the fine print - the range is usually quoted at an unrealistically slow speed. I intend to address that much more clearly by quoting a "real world range". However, the XM products have to compete in the market place so we kind of have to quote those maximum ranges that other folks use. Otherwise the casual observer will simply say "hey, those Brand-X models go twice as far as the XM brand".

Quote:

When I get my inquiries about e-max, when asked about where they can get an electric scooters, I tell them for now that they will need to have considerable electric/electronic, plus ordinary motorcycle/automotive repair skills to own one, otherwise, they should get a Vespa.

That's certainly a safe and conservative position to take and one that your personal experience bears out. However, the choices of bikes are progressing quickly. From my perspective you're suffering from the issues of being an early adopter and you don't seem ready yet to give the newer bikes a "second chance". That's obviously your choice - but when do you think you'll be ready to recommend two wheel EVs to folks?

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Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Mountain chen wrote:
jdh2550_1 wrote:

I'm not saying that an E-Fun might not be better than an XM-2000. But even if it is neither of us can possibly say that an XM-3500 or XM-3000 is better or worse.

To be a manufacturer,I am not convincingly to say who is better,I just want to remind John and Dan to view from the technical proof :

Hi Mountain,

What I was really attempting to say to Dan is that the best proof of the strengths and weaknesses of the XM-3500 and the XM-3000 will be to wait until we have production models on the roads over here in the US.

With patience we will be able to report some direct data and hopefully do some side by side comparisons. Then folks can make an educated decision on whether they want to purchase a bike or not.

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John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas. No Worries." - JDH, CuMoCo || "Make Volts Not War" - anon.

Mountain chen
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

fisher727 wrote:

Chen

You say that the XM-3500 would be dangerous with lead batteries. Is this a problem with the strength of the frame of the XM-3500 or something else you did not state the concern you have. I noticed the next generation of electric scooters coming to market we see 13" wheels and motors that are capable of 50 mph and they are offering battery choices which include lead batteries. The lead battery powered 13" scooters will weigh about 400 pounds, 100 pounds lighter than some bikes I have owned.

Eric Fisher
www.Siliconebatteriesusa.com

Yes, weakness Chassis of EFUN D or XM3500 is not suitable for PB batteries,that's another dangerous factor to bear 50mph and 400 pounds scooter + 200 pounds rider,I just forget.... thanks for your reminding.
chassis.jpg
So that only lighter Lithium battery suitable for this Maxi style.

Mik
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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Mountain chen wrote:

Yes, weakness Chassis of EFUN D or XM3500 is not suitable for PB batteries,that's another dangerous factor to bear 50mph and 400 pounds scooter + 200 pounds rider,I just forget.... thanks for your reminding.
chassis.jpg
So that only lighter Lithium battery suitable for this Maxi style.

Sorry mountain, you might well be right with the claim that one of the chassis in you picture is tougher than the other, but the picture does not support this claim.

The scooter on the right side might well be stronger than the one on the left if I only look at this picture.

Mr. Mik

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Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

Mik wrote:

Sorry mountain, you might well be right with the claim that one of the chassis in you picture is tougher than the other, but the picture does not support this claim.

The scooter on the right side might well be stronger than the one on the left if I only look at this picture.

Mr. Mik

It is our pleasure that professional Mik more appreciate to this chassis,XM3500 would use the same chassis with 50kgs lighter body.

PJD
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Joined: 11/22/2006
Points: 1411
Re: Brand New XM-3000 - the XM-2000 Replacement

John,

I noticed that you are calling the XM-3000 a "moped" on your web site. However, in nearly all US states it wouldn't be classified as such, because:

1. It doesn't have pedals (the original definition of "moped"); and/or,

2. It exceeds the maximum speed for a legal moped.

Additionally, the term "moped" has certain negative connotations in most parts of the US. Does anyone call a Vespa, Honda Elite or Metropolitan a "moped"?

I prefer the term "motor scooter". Thanks.

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