Dangerous Z20A and B and R20

I recalled all the bikes and gave everyone their money back. EVTAmerica has turned their back on me no calls, no skype, no emails. Please if you have one of these bikes be careful.
There is much more to be said, but now I am just worried about someone being injured or killed.

Good on you!

They will buy from you again, I hope, when a decent product is available. Hope you have the resources to start again.

What puzzles me is that the USA seem to have no quality control regarding safety standards of vehicles to be imported.

Maybe because there is no domestic industry to be protected?

Or does letting in bad EV's actually help maintain the status quo?

Mr. Mik

BIG DAMAGE TO EV MARKET.....no one heard from me since last summer I first joined this forum ... you can review my record here....that's soul of 5 years big power scooter experience

Anyway,come back to Nova scooter and try to fix the problem !

Hubert, where are you located? What are your plans for the bikes?

There are quite a few people here in the US who may be interested in them as projects.

I recalled all the bikes and gave everyone their money back. EVTAmerica has turned their back on me no calls, no skype, no emails. Please if you have one of these bikes be careful.
There is much more to be said, but now I am just worried about someone being injured or killed.

Good on you!

They will buy from you again, I hope, when a decent product is available. Hope you have the resources to start again.

I want to wholeheartedly second what Mik says. I'm very glad to hear that you took the approach that you did and recalled and refunded the money. What you did was the right thing for the customer but at great financial risk to you (as evidenced by the lack of attention you're getting from EVTA). However, you're probably sleeping better at night knowing you avoided a potential serious accident and serious lawsuit. Thanks for doing this. OK, so that's not really worth very much for you right now but at least you can know that folks not even involved with EVTA in anyway do appreciate what you did.

Disclaimer: I am simply an independent sales rep who sells X-Treme products and I'll make no money from the following suggestion. Consider checking out the X-Treme product line - the XM-3000 will be a direct class replacement for the Z-20. The XM-3500 will be a step up and could attract more sales for you (my mailing list is currently about 2 to 1 in favor of "tell me more about the XM-3500"). AFAIK, X-Treme do offer to sell container loads at discounted prices - or you could become an X-Treme dealer. AFAIK, X-Treme's price point is the most competitive in the marketplace and I believe the XM-2000 can be seen to be clearly superior to the Z and R (hard not to be better!). The XM-3000 and the XM-3500 can be considered the second generation of the XM electric motorcycle line and as such they address concerns of the first iteration. Are they perfect products, no they are not. There are no perfect products and beware anyone who tells you otherwise! Are they good enough to sell to consumers - I believe so.

Personally, if I were you I'd buy my own XM-3000 and XM-3500 before ordering a container full. I'm never going to buy a container load of any scooters - I'll just sell them one at a time if I can - but even with that sales model I'll be buying my own first. I do trust X-Treme (many folks don't - but most folks haven't had as much direct contact with the owner as I have). However, one has to recognize that these are new products in a new market segment so a dealer (or even an independent sales rep like me) needs to proceed cautiously and gain as much direct experience as possible. This ain't Tupperware we're selling ;-)

Good luck and I hope you get every cent back from EVTA. I'm sure the writing is on the wall for EVTA - I think they tried and failed. My guess is that they don't have the resources to survive this debacle. By comparison X-Treme imports and sells around 30,000 items per year. For sure there are some pretty low-end products in that number - however, they didn't win many friends or make much money (relatively speaking) selling the XM-2000 - however they've stuck with it and are continuing. I hope they'll stick with this for the third, fourth and fifth generations of these bikes. Will you have nothing but success and good dealings with X-Treme (actually Alpha Products International - API)? I have no idea - but you will be dealing with a company that has a longer track record. Will you hear nothing but good things about API? Hardly! You'll likely hear a lot of negative press - but if you care to research and understand it I think you can make a decision to do business with them.

Again, although I sell X-Treme scooters I don't get anything from this advice. This advice is also worth as much as what you paid for it ;-)

Good luck! Feel free to PM me or contact me via my site (listed in my signature) and I'd be happy to discuss this more.

No disclaimer here;
I do not sell anybody else's scooter from USA
and I advise checking out the Iowa's BBB large file on xtreme
Buy direct from Mountain Chen or I can arrange it. Or if you want a perfect scooter, get a Falcon Li.
Course, I told you this a long time ago. But did u listen ? nooooooo

FalconEV

Xtreme Scooter Buyer Beware from eBay

The Scooter Scoop

Proton - please tell us about your product and your satisfied customers. If it's a perfect product then don't hide it. The only time I've ever seen you post is in a negative fashion. Why not let the positive aspects of your product stand on it's own merit?

Does anyone own a Falcon Li scooter and can give us all an independent report? If it's good and better value for money then I suggest folks go ahead and buy it rather than the XM line. Competition is good - it raises the bar and makes all the products better.

Of course talk is cheap. And "trash talk" is just so much worthless noise.

Surely your not asking to compare xtreme,s 3 ? satisfied customers to anybody else.
No member on this forum is my customer, nor will ever be. I'm actually wasting my time here...
I only posted IF a visitor should happen to look here, and, u were also pushing your offerings.

First I want everyone to know this post is from chas_stevenson V is for Voltage Member and NOT from chas_stevenson V Moderator Capitan. That is just part of my Signature block.

FalconEV,

I just went to the FalconEV Website and in less than 5 minutes found some holes in what the site has to say. Here are some quotes from the site that don't add up -

It's the easiest, quickest, most ecologically significant thing you can do right now to reduce gasoline usage and keep your $ in the USA.

FalconEV has partnered with mfr's in Taiwan and China to bring serious electric transportation to America.

How does buying products from Taiwan and China "keep your $ in the USA."?

Surely your not asking to compare xtreme,s 3 ? satisfied customers to anybody else.

This list also includes all electric scooters and NEV's, including zap, x-treme, segway, ego, helio, EVT, Lepton, E-max, GEM car, Myers Motors sparrow / Nmg, electric car conversions, electric boats and plug-in-hybrids.

I see "xtreme" in both places how can you sell something you don't believe in?

EV's do NOT NEED gas stations like gas burning vehicles do because they are always ' FULL ' when you start out in the morning. If people had gas pumps at their house, there would be very few stopping to refuel during the day..right ???

This is a non-statement if I ever heard one.

No member on this forum is my customer, nor will ever be. I'm actually wasting my time here...

With an attitude like that I guess you're right, no one wants to buy from someone who criticizes their own products.

Well there you have it, one more brilliant mind heard from.

Where do they come from?
Grandpa Chas S.

No disclaimer here;
I do not sell anybody else's scooter from USA
and I advise checking out the Iowa's BBB large file on xtreme
Buy direct from Mountain Chen or I can arrange it. Or if you want a perfect scooter, get a Falcon Li.
Course, I told you this a long time ago. But did u listen ? nooooooo

Do you manufacture it?

You mention that you are the "representative manufacturing agent of NOVA Scooters": Re: Fastest Z20-A in the WORLD

Unfortunately, I often don't take advice at face value from someone pushing their product. However, I do like information with some value. How about some in-depth testing with supporting data? We would really like to know about the quality, durability, and performance.

TBH, your website looks tacky and it's hard to figure out what you sell. I'm just trying to give constructive criticism. I don't care for the sales pitch clutter, but that's just me. Here's a website that is very clear and professional: Google

posts like this are exactly what I'm talking about.
Stay in your own clique.
nuff said

Proton,

Posts like what? You are simply being asked to back up your claim. Posts where one simply says "buy my stuff it's perfect" and then run away aren't real helpful to the consumer. Furthermore, do you really expect me to sit on the sideline while you continue to post this stuff about X-Treme? I wouldn't expect you to sit on the side lines if 3rd party folks were distributing negative stuff about your company dealings.

From what I can tell you will be selling the exact same bike as the XM-3500 - both manufactured by Mountain Chen. Same bike different badges. That's fine - happens all the time. Can you let us know if it is the same bike or not?

If it is the same bike then we'll be competing for customers based on price and on customer experience. I have no problem with that. I have no control over the price - but I do have some small control over the customer experience. Mostly that control can be exerted before the sale - by setting expectations.

I respectfully suggest that you learn how to post positive stuff about your company and the experience folks will get buying from you - it will serve you better than simply "bashing the other guy".

proton,

Maybe we have had a little fun at your expense but I have never seen you post anything here that would make me, as a consumer, want to do business with you or FalconEV. When I look at the website all I see is an ecliptic collection of contradictions. There is one place on the site where information on a 36-volt hub motor says 20 MPH for a 180 Lb. Rider and about halfway down the page it says 23 MPH for the same thing. Why are there so many contradictions? As a consumer I would not want to purchase from a site as bad as this.

nuff said

This should probably migrate to a new thread ..

Hubert,

I was wondering, do you still have the scooters?

Grandpa Chas S.

Is there not a bike out there now that can go 40 miles on a charge and is well built. The Z20 can do this when it is running, but it is built so poorly and the quality is just terrible everything went wrong in 24 bikes, brake cables, loose handlebars, throttles falling off, many dead controllers, dead DC/DC converters, rusty screws, bad switches, terrible wiring, bad lights, bad or dead speedometers, dead chargers, dead batteries, the most unreliable machine ever put on production. 6 of these bikes did not make it over 50k, 2 did not make it 5k. No manuals, no back up. There could not be a better way to mess up a perfect market.

The thing is here I am in Bermuda the most perfect place for this technology where 10,000 bikes are sold each year, if the Z20 had performed the way it was suppose to it would have ruled here.

Instead I have a bunch of junk.

Give me something with a little German engineering and quality at a reasonable price. I will try not to buy anything from China again.

don't be disappointed,my first container just arrive in Bermuda this week,contact with HWP and they will help you....I shipped quite a lot of spare parts in this first shipment,maybe useful in your bike.

It is EVTA faulty,not chinese

Hubert to blame the Chinese is an overreaction - you have a problem with EVTA and with their manufacturer.

To answer your question - no there is no bike out there that is being sold in the US that will go 40 "real world" miles on a charge. Especially not in the price range of the Z-20. 20 miles is a reasonable real world expectation with SLA or silicone batteries. By real world I mean simply riding the bike without trying to get maximum range by keeping the speed down to some artificially low number. I don't know what range to expect from this size of scooter with lithium batteries. Nova Scooters mentioned that they were about to start selling a 55Ah C-LiFePO4 battery pack for retrofitting into various bikes. So, you might try asking them what range to expect. I would imagine a Z-20 or XM-3000 setup with 55Ah of Lithium batteries would do 40 "real world" miles - but I don't know what such a bike would cost.

BTW, even the much more expensive Vectrix won't go 40 miles on a charge without riding it well below it's rated speed capabilities (see: http://www.vectrix.com/corporate/US/range-info.php)

I suggest you get one sample of any bike that you plan on selling and ride it yourself to get comfortable that it meets all the requirements to your satisfaction - regardless of who you buy it from.

I wish you good luck with finding an electric scooter and a manufacturer you can feel happy with.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Pruna and his lovely family, I can assure you that he is a very serious person. You having this bad container must have been as devastating for him as it has for you. It is easy for Mr. Chen to take advantage of this situation and pitch his products and I think thats just wrong. There's definetly something wrong with the first batch, something that must be corrected and I know it will be, and all this mess will be forgotten. It takes time to sort this things out, specially when the supplier is so far away, as you can see. Give EVTA time, sometimes the companies stumble and then become better.

Cheers

I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Pruna and his lovely family, I can assure you that he is a very serious person. You having this bad container must have been as devastating for him as it has for you. It is easy for Mr. Chen to take advantage of this situation and pitch his products and I think thats just wrong.

Cheers

I don't expect to get any advantage from this incident,normally we don't sell spare parts.

I just want to save the market which might be damaged by unprofessional EVTA and his dealers.

I respect you Mr. Chen, don't get me wrong. Just think you should not mention your brand, all EV companies undergo this kind of situations, yours included. Even the very expensive Vectrix.

Cheers

I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Pruna and his lovely family, I can assure you that he is a very serious person. You having this bad container must have been as devastating for him as it has for you. It is easy for Mr. Chen to take advantage of this situation and pitch his products and I think thats just wrong. There's definetly something wrong with the first batch, something that must be corrected and I know it will be, and all this mess will be forgotten. It takes time to sort this things out, specially when the supplier is so far away, as you can see. Give EVTA time, sometimes the companies stumble and then become better.

Cheers

I just don't buy that argument. Especially if Mr. Pruna (both of them) cut off communication with Hubert, and didn't follow up on a promise. An honorable business would be honest and forthcoming with their customers. At least EVTA could offer to return a portion of the money if this really was an accident. I don't think there was any accident.

EVTA could have done the proper quality control and held back their product.

We are not talking here about an airplane hangar with 50 employees, this is a personal project of two brothers, one that has taken years to achieve and was done hands on, one that consumes incredible amounts of money and time. I remember talking to Fernando when the testing phase was on, and he was very carefull not to deliver the bikes prior to successfull testing, we also discussed the design of the box so that everything would arrive intact, attention to detail was definetly a priority. My personal beleive is that some parts were switched during the assembly witch were not detected, such as the controller board being too small for the case , and that the FETS were not arranged correctly. I dont have an EVTA, I used to sell EgoCycles. But I can tell you, I used to have issues with the Ego's too. I am not Mr. Prunas Lawyer or in anyway have a monetary interest in this project, I'm just showing the other side of the story.

I know for a fact that the replacement controllers are being tested on a scooter before shipment, there is also new controllers being tested to contemplate the possibility of using another supplier. There is also a very comprehensive FAQ and HELP section on the EVTA site that explains all warranty and return procedures clearly. I know that they offer Mr. Hubert to send Andres to Bermuda when the crates arrived and also offer to send an electric engineer to help with all the damaged bikes, the issue is that it could not be done as fast as you wanted because of the delays in china based on the snow and electricity shortage at the factories. The thing here at V forums is that the satisfied customers dont post their experiences, only the ones that have issues or problems with the product. Even in this first batch of bikes, being the one with the most problem, only 10% of the units experienced problems. The rest of the units are working properly.

My advice to you Mr. Hubert is that you should try to get them fixed trough EVTA service, do not trash or give them away. They are still completely reparable. You can still be a main supplier of electric transportation in Bermuda.

Good Luck

Jose

"Hubert to blame the Chinese is an overreaction..."

Anyone saying that is in a state of denial.

The Z20 experience is an EXACT replay of the e-max debacle. Just replace the Piruna brothers with Tomas Gruber and a Greek guy - forgot his name (the e-max was fraudulently promoted as a German product); and Mr. Hubert with Larry Maltz in Austin Texas.

Chinese manufacturers have no philosophy of quality or customer service. It's throw it together, get the payment for the order, throw the container over the rail of the ship, and congratulate themselves. I'm fully expecting to hear in the news soon of a shipment of Chinese goods which don't work and when opened up only contain a mixture of sawdust and toxic waste inside them.

I don't know if this situation arises from a Chinese government policy that encourages it, or China is passing through it's own robber-baron era, like Upton Sinclair or John Steinbeck chronicled.

Japan in the 1950's and 1960, also had a reputation for shoddy goods too. That sure changed, maybe China will too.