Got my insurance yesterday. That was difficult enough, as a half dozen companies told me they would not register it because it was electric. Whalen Insurance was very helpful and worked with Arbella to insure it as a 100cc-equivalent motorcycle.
Went to the RMV today with all necessary paperwork. The agent at the branch had to tap "Antonio" in Titling for help because the computer would not accept "API" in the MAKE field. I went back to work while the paper was pushed. An hour and a half later, I got a call from the branch agent that I "can not register the bike in Massachusetts. It is considered an 'electric scooter.'" This of course is bs because the 3500 meets all the requirements of a motorcycle in the information available on the RMV's website and none of the criteria that would classify it as a scooter, moped, or other non-registerable vehicle. Here is what I wrote through the website contact form:
This afternoon, I attempted to register my electric motorcycle at the Easthampton branch. Antonio in Titling was contacted by the branch agent for assistance with my XM-3500li from Alpha Products International. I was told I could not register the vehicle in Massachusetts and not provided any explanation of why. Prior to my purchase of the vehicle, I made sure it met all the classification specifications of a "motorcycle" through a thorough review of the information available on this website. Not only does the vehicle meet all the specifications of a "motorcycle" as defined by the registry, but it does not have any of the qualities that would potentially classify it as a "scooter" or other vehicle type specifically proscribed by the registry.
To review:
1. The BODY TYPE on the CO is "MOTOR DRIVEN CYCLE"
2. The vehicle's top speed is 55mph.
3. It is a DOT certified Motor Vehicle.
Please call me to discuss.
Thank you,
Gregory Perham
I'll update this thread as things progress.
I live in MA also. If the RMV agent actually used the words "electric scooter" then he doesn't know what he's talking about. There is no such thing under MA law as an "electric scooter." There are "motorized bicycles" (mopeds) and then there are motorcycles. As far as I can tell, the XM-3500li meets the criteria for a motorcycle.
The only sticking point I can possibly think of is that the RMV's website says that a motorcycle's MCO must list the body type as "motorcycle." Your MCO lists it as "motor driven cycle."
However, the RMV's website isn't really the official source of RMV regulations. The complete and official source is 540 CMR, which is not freely available to the public. The state bookstore will sell it to you for $10 though :-)
Almost all states that don't explicitly define "Motor driven cycle" usually have wording saying that motor driven cycles should be treated as motorcycles. I haven't seen MA's laws but I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.
BTW, my company is in the process of joining the Motor Industry Council (MIC) and we'll also be purchasing their compilation of all relevant state laws. It's expensive but it can take forever to compile this stuff oneself. When we get a copy of the law I'll be able to give you an answer as to what the MA definition is (but I won't be publishing all the text of all the laws!). You'll likely already have your answer by then - but if you don't I should be able to help you out.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Sounds like an excellent plan, John.
Btw, you might also see what it takes to join either of these two groups:
Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA) http://www.electricdrive.org/
Plug In America http://www.pluginamerica.org/
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
I got my 3500li registered in Illinois without a problem...I just sent a check to my buddy Rod who knows a guy at the DMV and voila bingo I get a Title and plate!BadaBING! But seriously I got mine done without a problem. Don't give up.
Bill
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
Hey Iccarus Bada Bing and Illinois? hummmmmmmmm are either Blagojevich or Burris personal friends of your friend? wait a minute are you speaking about Rod Blagojevich as this friend of yours in DMV or that is where the exgovenor is now working? making EV license plates?
Sorry just couldn't resist....M
mikie
> is where the exgovenor is now working? making EV license plates?
Ha!! That is a good one.
Yes, that's correct Illinois is the only state in the union that you can get a licence plate that was made by one of our ex governors. Again though...seriously does anyone think we really have a monopoly on corruption here? I think we just hold them accountable unlike some people who just left at the federal level. The image of Blago stamping out EV licence plates almost made me spew coffee out my nose...THANKS Mikie,dirtywater!
2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS
KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl
In California, they make the plates in prison.
Registration of my XM-5000Li in CA went smoothly, due to the hub motor having an "engine number" already stamped on its rim. The scooter registered as a 2009 ALPHA, the TYPE VEHICLE USE as "MOTORCYCLE", the MP (motor power) as E (electric), and the BODY TYPE MODEL (body style ?) as "MS" (presumably "motor scooter").
Since there are no restrictions listed, I presume (but have not yet verified) that this means that it is registered as a full freeway-legal motorcycle.
There is also VLF CLASS as AW, TYPE VEH as 240, TYPE LIC as 21, MO as QN, CV/ALCO as 30, and PIC as 5. Maybe somebody knows what these mean.
The MCO (Certificate of Origin) lists ALPHA PRODUCTS INTERNATIONAL, gives the VIN (5XWMRE0579N00xxxx), year 2009 (the "9" in the VIN), make API, body type MOTOR DRIVEN CYCLE, hp (S.A.E) as 1.9 (which seems too low for a 5000 watt motor), GVWR as 906 lb, NO. CYLS. as "ELECTRIC-0", and SERIES OR MODEL as "XM-5000 Li".
Hope this helps, Gary
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
I finally got around to calling the RMV titling department yesterday. I felt calm enough to be patient, and that probably got me further than I would have if I'd been accusatory. The woman I got calling the general # 617-351-9550 told me I should have been given a specific reason for denial of my title application in an official letter from the RMV. Of course I did not. I told her the story, and she was very [strike]nice[/strike] helpful and called me back after she had spoken with Antonio (for which she herself had to wait on hold in order to accomplish). She gave me his direct number in case I wanted to discuss it further. I did. KTHXBY
Antonio was friendly and willing to help, although he admitted to not being an expert on the regulations. To this, I asked who was; who has decided my vehicle isn't able to be registered. In summary, his response was that, in the absence of specific regulations permitting OR excluding my specific vehicle type, The Registry has decided not to title electric vehicles. Yes, this is stupid, but what I gathered was that it was not him weighing the merits of my application and making a decision, this was just RMV policy, handed down.
As a way to defer, he said there was pending legislation for "Low Speed Vehicles" that might accommodate me when it gets passed later in the spring or summer. For the record, the bill is SB 1313, is very poorly thought out, and still would have no effect on me, for it is written for vehicles that top out at—you guessed it—30 mph.
So I ignored his spiel on the LSV legislation and asked what language in the definition of a motorcycle ruled out a purely electric motor, as I would like to be able to be specific when I write my representative to suggest new regulations. Antonio immediately offered to "go across the hall" to the legal department and look it up, so as to "quote chapter and verse" to me. He returned in a reasonable amount of time and directed me to General Laws Chapter 90, Section 1. I had a ready copy of this to follow along:
Antonio said that while it did not rule out an electric motor or require a gas tank, it did allow for exclusions, and that the XM-3500li could be categorized as a "motorized scooter." Well:
It is plain to me that the XM is not a motorized bicycle because its maximum speed is well over 30 mph. Antonio must be a logically minded person (love talking to the rare folk that that ilk), because while he did not (and for legal reasons I'm sure, could not) agree with me that the definitions did not seem to exclude me, he offered to refer the matter to the legal department. I'm fine with him passing the buck. I like the sound of idea of talking to a lawyer.
Antonio wanted specs from the manufacturer about speed, range, and power to give to the LDpt; said I could fax owner manual pages or provide a website. I was not thrilled with either option. The manual is total crap and chock full of inaccuracies regarding the 3500 (which bely its preparer's technique of copy-and-paste from some other model). The X-treme website is scarcely better, being primarily a marketing tool, and filled with the words "scooter" and "moped"—associations I am eager to downplay. I suggested that I could call the manufacturer and get a spec sheet or whatever Antonio thought would be best, as I mentioned the first person to register the 3500 in California had to do some extra paper- and legwork, including a special inspection by the Highway Patrol, and that I was perfectly willing to do all this or whatever it took. He did not feel this was necessary, and I directed him to http://www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_mopeds/xm-3500li/xm-3500li.html. Antonio thought this was sufficient, and told me he would give this to a particular person in the legal department, and that I will receive a call from one or the other of them to follow-up.
I feel that I was actually heard, and am satisfied for now that things have escalated appropriately. At the very least, the LDpt should be able to tell me precisely what language in the laws they cite when denying my title application. Then I will have something to put in a letter to a state legislator…the Registrar…the governor…the head of the governor's environmental task force… At best, I will make my case and convince them to approve me fully or with special dispensation. I am quite willing to be excluded from highways, if that's their concern. Between these two on the scale of preference would be getting approved to register it as a moped…at least until proper legislation gets passed (letters to the state rep, the governor…)
Greg,
The problem seems to be that Antonio seems to have some kind of mental block with associating electric power with anything but those non street-legal things that kids ride and give cops a lot of headaches, or some kind of low speed vehicle.
I assume the DMV people never saw your XM3500; perhaps if they saw it, they would agree that it is a motorcycle. If you need to enter the power in HP, remember that one HP is 746 watts. The scooter's peak power is probably higher than motor's 3500 watt rating, but if you use it, it will be less than 5 hp which is below the 5 hp maximum to be classified as a "motor driven cycle" - which most states register as motorcycles, but in some cases you don't need a class M drivers license.
The term "scooter" is a confusing one in many US states. The way xtreme misnames the thing a "moped" make things worse. Explain the DMV person that it is just like a 150 cc Vespa - surely people register those in Massachusetts.
You mentioned difficulty getting insurance.
I had no trouble with Geico and my XM-5000Li, and
their rates were reasonable and the best I found.
Did you try them?
Has anybody had any difficulty with Geico?
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
The information on HP and the difference between "motor driven cycle" and "motorcycle" are new and interesting to me. California seems to differentiate "motorcycle" from "motor-driven cycle" by volume of the engine, so I'm glad to know this may vary elsewhere. Although it did not occur to him on his own, he was receptive to my arguments about the definition of a motorcycle and my bike's 'potential' to be thus classified by the RMV, and has since appeared to be a good advocate for me. He has brought the head of Titling in on the matter, and I may finally be getting somewhere. The director has asked for photos of the VIN plate or other proof that the bike meets federal DOT standards, which sounds promising to me! I am absolutely relieved that this did devolve into a Verizon Math type of experience of banging my head against a wall—only had to do that a little. :-)
Geico is not licensed to sell insurance in Massachusetts, though you'd never know it for all the advertising they do here. All it took was an actual person being willing to look a little beyond the confines of the taxonomic options presented in their software. Arbella had no problem issuing a policy, and it was an agent at Whalen Insurance that was willing to go to bat for me. Every other agent said a flat 'no.'
Here's what happened last week:
I followed-up with Antonio (I have a last name now: DeSisto), and he had talked with Bill McVey in the legal department, and later taken up the matter with the Titling Director, Charles LaRocca. Mr LaRocca had sent two emails to Alpha Products that were not responded to. I am disappointed in Alpha Products, but not surprised. Mr LaRocca wanted verification that the vehicle is certified by the federal DOT, and had asked Alpha for proof. Antonio said that the vehicle itself should have a certification label, and that I might take a photo of it and send it in. He expressed a sense that Mr LaRocca felt "we are 90% of the way there." I offered to contact Alpha directly and request documentation of federal certification to be sent to the Mass RMV, or look for the label and get some photos another day.
I called Alpha a couple of times, but was not able to reach 'Rachel,' who was evidently the best person to speak to about the certification. When I finally spoke to her the next day, she indicated that the VIN plate was the same as the federal DOT certification label, and if the RMV needed more, she could work up a document for me. I do appreciate her offer to take that extra step! Well, of course I rushed home that very afternoon to snap some photos and get them off to Antonio. What I ultimately sent him was a series of photos showing the whole bike with the VIN plate circled, a medium-range shot of the plate, and two close-ups: one undoctored and one enhanced to make the stamped alphanumerics legible. I sent these in last Thursday.
"90% of the way there," huh? It's time to start crossing my fingers!
Yesterday (Monday), Antonio acknowledged receipt of the photos, and I am now waiting for the follow-up.
Victory!
On Wednesday I went in after getting word from Antonio that the vehicle had been approved for registration, but the RMV's database hadn't been updated to include the bike. Well, that was a further waste of time, but I was able to go in on Thursday and had no problem! So it's done! We'll see what happens at the inspection in terms of the emissions test, ha ha.
If anyone else tries this in MA, everyone at the Easthampton branch is familiar with the concept of the electric motorcycle, Antonio is the prime contact in Boston, and the manufacturer entry is 'ALPH'. The XM3500li is in the state's database, but a similar approval process of sending in photos of the VIN plate/US DOT certification label might be needed for other models.
Congradulations.
Are there any operational limitations, or is it fully freeway legal?
Cheers, Gary
XM-5000Li, wired for cell voltage measuring and logging.
It's registered as a full motorcycle, satisfying the RMV's requirement that it achieve 45mph, but I would not take it on the highway...ever. Yeah, it'll do 45, but not for long and not up a hill. I think there should be a new class of vehicle that goes above 25mph but is restricted from freeways.
I know this is a VERY OLD THREAD ....
But there is nothing else on this forum about the RMV in MA and the new laws.
I personally would not consider the XM3500 a Motorcycle, yes maybe a LUV (limited Use Vehicle) but really I would say it is still a Motorized Bicycle, as described in the MA Law.
Your Scooter will go 45, but really for how long ?
What is the normal running speed ?
I have had Motorcycles most of my life. I am all done with them and the speed, and all done with MA getting Excise tax/title/reg/insp/plates .....I just want a "moped/Scooter" to go go work 5 miles away, pay for the 2/yr sticker and stay to the side of the road. 30mph is the max I would go, but for safety I would like to get a boost to 35 when I need it to get around something.
With this new law there is NOTHING that has anything written about Electric Scooters (M.B.).
It is still all too vague about it all.
But your 3500 is listed as a Motorcycle ! Really if it goes 60mph then yeah it's a motorcycle.
30mph-40mph is a LUV, or is it just LU ---- I think it stands for luv to pay more $$ to the RMV ;)
I e-mailed the RMV and got no real answer, just a repeat of their written law ....
Anyone tell me what is written on the original title/Man of Origin papers ??
I got the same as you did. I lost my license do to bad back and use a Lark scooter and also my XM-3000 now Lithium scooter. What I did is carry a paper saying RMV calls is a Non motor vehicle. I also rewired the switch to a form C contact relay to do low speed mode. Even at best it won't do 21 to 25 MPH. Because I couldn't register it and just titled it I was worried about insurance for theft. I woke to find my xm-3100 cut off of the SUV and after a week of arguing to insurance and giving them pictures of my scooter and I can't license it so how do I get to claim. It was under home owners insurance. So that was my final proof it was a mobility scooter. I tried to get a rider on home owners too but.... If I do need extra speed I do click of a lamp module type relay and I go to 30 maybe 35 MPH high speed for a while. But I have to do it that way, so if any one drives my scooter it is speed power limited. Keyless Prius is like that too. It does scare me to park the XM-3000 getting groceries. It is too light and some one could lift the whole scooter now. I use two yellow Xena wheel locks and three cables. I have to go 7 miles at most and ten miles to Ham Radio class at library and always have extra juice especially ten mile trip at Adams Library in Chelmsford. Free Coulomb charging. At the Lowell registry they saw it had a whacky odometer and only one light side working and other stuff and agreed it was a sorry thing for even a mobility scooter. I have been using it that was for maybe 4 years or more and maybe three or four times cop cars blew a U-e and followed me and I did not have a radar detector but I am sure they were clocking me, for they always after a mile or so passed me and made a U-turn again to go where ever. Top speed is critical I thinks. I use a Garmin to make sure I don't go into red zone. So it depends if you have a patient insurance seller to fudge Alpha Products scooter into thinking it is a DOT approved vehicle. I have not found any one of the inspection stations to get past a preliminary cursory inspection. It doesn't really make a legal DOT MV they say. Oh, BTW I can't park a MV in house/ apartment. So I had to write association about scooter. They said and agree it is same as Lark scooter. And Electric mobility scooter. And at my apartment it is alarmed to the gills to inside alarm panel for you guessed it. Some one tried to cut thick cables. So I can do better by proving it is not a DOT approved motor vehicle but it is hard to prove it is safe for street use. Even stock it never did 40 MPH like AD says it can do. Wow You got the RMV to give you a scooter sticker. I couldn't even get that far. I went to Worcester and Lowell too.
KB1UKU
What did the RMV say ?
And do you know what your Title/Man of Origin said as far as size of motor and speed ?
I am trying to find out what the RMV EXACTLY wants from an electric scooter (yeah yeah I know it isn't a "scooter" lol)
I had quite a time registering my Oxygen Lepton at the New York DMV. It was further complicated by the lack of an MCO, but even after I provided the alterantive forms of proof of ownership, it ended being registered as a "moped" (typical here) with two cylinders. And my insurance company can't seem to get model or manufacturer names even close to right...
I think I am just going to have to go down to the RMV in Watertown to find out what they want. Maybe I need to talk to the State trooper posted there and see what he says too. They were always nice every time I have gone there... course I have always been nice and had my stuff in order before going ;)
I just want to know what is written on the C/O or MO (what ever you call it) for engine size, hp and body type.
That might help show them.
I have been talking with Mountain Chen about a bike shipped to me. Says it can be "restricted" to only 45kmh (so about 28 mph). But not sure if they will allow that if I get the 4000w or 5000w hub but have a smaller controller and lead battery ... KWIM ?
In Europe the 45km/h class electric mopeds are restricted to 4kW maximum power from the motor - which is heaps sufficent for such a maximum speed.
But of course wild combinations of components can make official folks suspicious...
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
Ah, now her in Mass (USA) they have no idea what to do with these. There is nothing written and none of them understand how it all works. Shoot, even I am just trying to figure it out. I am not so good with Electric stuff, more Mechanical. So it has been an eye opener as what I could do and not do when buying an Electric scooter.
My 1st issue is that there are really no one here that sells the 4000w hub scooters so I can not even try one out or ask questions.
Sellers want to say it goes FASTER, when it really doesn't do a "Constant" speed of what they are saying.
So if I could get one that is "restricted" to show it goes 30 or under then I could register it as a moped and not a motorcycle. I know, but really it is a moped :)