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Starting to sound more like battery. Controllers do not act like that. Turning it off and on can boot the BMS, controllers either work or don't.
The chargers are adjustable to 13 amps. Its within the design.
Okay, thnx Darus for at least know now for sure it can't have been the controller.
So with turnong the contact key on and off I can only reset the BMS?
That makes it even more confusing why it didn't happen again afterwards.
When it was a cell that was not corresponding with the others, did it correct itself afterwards perhaps?
And how do I check a cell? Isn't that just one of those tiny batteries packed into a bigger box?
And isn't it possible it is just the BMS not working properly now and then?
For I don't understand it didn't happen again afterwards.
Contact me through the main company web site and I will walk you through checking.
Things do not just work one time and not the next unless you have a connection issue. Bikes shake/vibrate/ and take a general beating due to their light weight. A yearly going over on connections for tightness is a good practice. I do that even to my trucks which shake the battery terminals loose ever year.
ZEVs do not use all of those "tiny battery packed into a bigger box". Much, much easier to check and owner friendly than what you refer to.
Thnx Darus, I'll contact you by email.
I must confess I've learned a lot these last days.Especially about batteries. Now I know it is more important than I thought to charge the batteries as high as possible, especially when I'm on the road. I had that issue after my first pause for charging and as I wrote I stopped charging after 1 1/2 hour with 94.5 V on the charger ( and less in the batteries, I found out immediately afterwards)
So that might have been the main reason for an unbalanced pack with that reaction of the BMS.
I have also understood that it cannot harm to let the ZEV just charge on even more then 24 hours after the charger gives the green light for fully charged. I tended to charge just a couple of hours more (occasionally 36 hrs) but usually not much more than that.
About the batteries, I know there are several turquoise/purple packs in the T8500, I thought to have counted more than 7 though I'm not sure. One time I read that hidden in those packs were those smaller (almost AA size) LiFePo4 batteries, connected all together. So that was the reason I started about 'little 'batteries for I thought with 'cells' you meant those small batteries, hidden somewhere in the larger packs.
By the way, today I drove the ZEV ( 3rd gear and no issues) and saw the counter is already 2900 kms.
It'll go much faster now that I can use the ZEV for every occassion.
how about a 6-year test ride of a T7100
The original owner of my T7100 gave it away at 1/10th the original cost because he road it in the rain and shorted out one of the 28 cells and the range dropped 70%; that and, he got a flat in the rear tire and wasn't able to get any motorcycle shops to repair it. The T7100 batteries were semi-covered, with a sheet of clear vinyl which mostly protects the cells if the bike is left in the rain, but does not protect the cells if ridden fast in a rain storm. I was personally able to verify that as it happened to me and I shorted out some cells and the BMS.
I repaired the bike and drove it a few years before one of the battery cables came loose. I bought a 1 AWG cable crimper and repaired that connection.
Today, I went to ride the bike and it is dead. The circuit breaker no longer closes the circuit; it won't latch on, it just keeps springing back to off. On most bikes, replacing a circuit breaker is probably no big deal, but on this bike it is a real pain in the ass. The reason its such a pain is the circuit breaker is attached to the panel that covers the handlebar area all the way back to the seat area. The only way to remove that panel is to remove the handlebars, remove the handlebar to forks mounting hardware, remove two front console panels, remove right foot support, remove right side body panels, and then pry the large center panel up and out. Then you are able to get to the two nuts to remove the circuit breaker.
I can't even charge the bike until this is fixed. I don't know when I can get around to a project like this. Hopefully, I can squeeze this project in before the BMS drains the pack to zero.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Hm, I must confess I've been riding in some pretty heavy rain ( as last week for example when there even was a thunderstorm ) and I'm glad that I didn't have those experiences as you just described.
I have a T7100 ( now called T8500 but on the frame still a mark with T7100 written on it) and indeed some things had to be improved.
For example the way the circuit-breaker is attached to that panel.
A retired electrician-friend of mine who loves to study my bike when he's got the chance has solved that problem for me ( as he made the box with the charger in it as well) and on this picture you can see (more or less) how he did that.
At least this way it is possible to remove ALL the panels (as he's done already one time, without me :-( )
Here is the latest mileage data on my LRC-6 (smallest Lion battery pack). Regen was fully operative, but I inadvertently wound up pushing it 50 yards or so to get home. Actually, even with dead batteries, the bike will push itself - I just walked alongside holding the throttle open and balancing the bike.
(in the plot, the horizontal axis is mileage, vertical axis is displayed battery voltage)
(I should also mention that about 5 miles was freeway between 60 and 70 MPH on Day #1, the rest was between 40 and 55 MPH on quite steep terrain.)
I think what I learned from this is, "Don't leave home with less than 90V."
It is my habit to charge always after every trip I have made (when i get the chance to it and I know I won't drive anymore that day) I mean to have understood that it doesn't harm the batteries for they have no 'memory'.
As for "Don't leave home with less than 90 V", during my last big tour I found out that charging just till the charger gives 94.5 V is a no go for in reality there's still much less than 94.5 V in the batteries.
I totally agree - but I feel safest if I understand what my equipment is doing. I guess at some point here I'll switch to recharge every evening, at least.
Last night when I did a full recharge the battery indicator was at 94V, but this morning it was at 93V, so I assume 93V is what's actually in the battery pack.
Anyone know how to set the clock permanently? Every time I turn the bike off and back on, it resets to 12:00.
Also, is anyone else having password issues with this site? This morning I keep having to "request a new password."
...Anyone know how to set the clock permanently? Every time I turn the bike off and back on, it resets to 12:00.
It probably has it's own little coin cell, and that is empty and requires replacement ;-)
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
okay I guess I was a little emotional this morning when the circuit breaker broke. Its been a long time since I have had to take a lot of panels off; the last time was a few years back when I finally couldn't stand the white with black look (kept reminding me of the Star Wars Storm trooper suits). So I ended up removing all the panels and painting the bike oil-rubbed bronze. At the time I was able to remove the center panel without messing with the handlebars but I did scratch the panel paint in the process. For the life of me, I could not figure out how to reinstall that center panel without scratching the new paint, so removed the handlebar stuff to reinstall the panel. Reliving that process this morning in my mind was more than I could deal with at the time.
Luckily for me, I didn't start that process. As Darus contacted and stated that there is a not so obvious black plastic panel that the circuit breaker is bolted to that snaps out from the center panel. I thought that black portion was just an area I had masked off and left unpainted; but, it truly is a snap in panel. So what I thought was going to be an arduous task, now is fairly simple, I just need to order this standard industrial part.
That is one reason I bought a ZEV vs Brammo or Zero back in 2010 - these bikes use many standard parts and inexpensive parts at that.
So bless you Darus for saving me a huge amount of needless work.
the "clock" is not a clock. Its a 12 hour timer to keep track of the time elapsed since you set out on your trip to assist with figuring how far you can go. Pilots plot their travels this way to not run out of gas, the most common causes of small plane crashes by a big margin. (so it works well to not run out of electricity either) ZEV was Zehrbach Engineering before it made bikes where it made airplanes for 30 years. Old habits die slowly. Our equivalent to the black and blue propeller in the BMW logo. As it says on the web site below the panel photo "On the right is a trip timer which resets at the start of each trip."
I appreciate your detailed work on range. We say on the web site that in steady state cruising on flat road, the range of the LRC6 is " 80 m at 55 mph and 50 m at 70 mph". So your 70 miles in mixed used with hills and stop and go acceleration thrown in shows we are a little conservative. But better that way.
There is a box of those breakers in the shop.
One thing I seem to see stated by owners regardless of brand is that they say that they had to push the bike home or walk away. Not sure how everyone else does it, but I have the ZEV bikes set so that they shut down under load - which leaves quite a bit of energy, just not enough to carry someone and accelerate and have any grade.
So when the bike just will not carry me anymore, that means I can get off, turn on the key, and walk beside it with the bike pulling its own weight for a lot of miles. Once during testing on a very long grade I let it run that way for over 3 miles and it still had plenty of juice. While it would show 74 with me on it, when walking it the voltage rose to 78.
So you might check and find that you can just walk the bike and get to a plug somewhere.
There is one thing which isn't really clear to me at the moment. Has the LRC 6 the same specifications as my ZEV T8500 ? Does it also have to charge to 102 V to get the batteries fully charged?
I have also been wondering what it was with that clock as it it seems to be stuck at 12:00 hrs. At least now I know why.
About the range, the next thing I'll be trying is how far I can get in second 'gear'. I know now that when the batteries are fully charged I can drive more than 110 km ( 68.5 Mi) and when I drive only 30 km/h (19 M/h) even more. But now I'm curious how far I will get when I drive in that 2nd 'gear' at for example 60 or even 70 Km/h (37 or 43.5 M/h)
Next week I'll take the ZEV on a trailer with me to the south of France to go on testing over there. ( and this time Montsegur without any problems!)
Your T8500 has the same battery pack as the LRC6. That is 28 cells of 60 ah each.
Your motor is not the same, more oriented to slower speed, more torque at lower rpm. It better suits your back road driving.
But the big difference is streamlining. The T, since it is a naked bike, unstreamlined, will get about 10-15% less range on the same motor, same battery, versus an S8500 LR which has the streamlined body. About the same versus the LRC6.
102 is not required. But 100 volt anyhow is best.
Your answer proves that intuitively I bought the right bike, considering what I'm using it for.
Rather sad and very unexpected news. Today we (my wife and I) went for a ride to a cinema in the next town which is 18 km (11 Mls) away from where we live.
We took the last 5 miles the expressway to our destination at a speed of 80 km/h (49 M/h) and all went well until at a certain moment ( after more less 3 miles) the engine in the wheel started to make a disturbing noise and the bike started to 'hesitate' in driving on. Very soon afterwards the motor stopped completely and whatever I did, it didn't react anymore to the throttle. I turned the breakerswitch of and on again and al signs of electricity where there .. but when I turned the throttle no reaction whatsoever.
I checked the stop button at the steeringbar, the sidestand, the fuses, but all were okay.
I turned the rear wheel and I could still easily turn it but I can feel a kind of intermittent (Interrupted) resistance while turning the feel faster. It acts different as I'm used to when i move it. When pushing the Zev a bit faster I can hear a sort of soft noise coming from the rear wheel which is different from the usual noise one can hear.
Is it what I think it is? Is it possible the electric Hubmotor is damaged?
To me this is really a big disappointment as I had the plan to take the Zev with me on a trip for 4 months - starting next sunday - to the south of France and do Montsegur again. And I was convinced expecting no troubles as I had 2 years ago.
Now I can forget about those plans, and the Zev has to wait here until I will be back in October.
I really haven't done extra out of the ordinary with it. No full throttle, no heavy luggage, only with two on the bike and a short trip with batteries fully charged.
It may be a failed controller. That's the commonest failure (aside from poor wiring connections) on these Chinese-sourced bikes. Mine died after only about 2300 miles, I think. If you unplug the controller and the "cogging" effect in the hubmotor goes away, that may be the problem.
First do not assume anything broke as Lefti says. Assume you have a bad connection. Your motor has a double set of Hall sensors in it also, so you can switch plugs and have a completely new hall setup.
Contact me at sales [at] zelectricvehicle.com and I can walk you through a check. Very little in these systems.
If in fact the controller could be bad, its a 45 minute swap on your bike for a new one that you can do yourself.
Have Darius send you the controller and motor wiring info. There used to be a controller fail output signal. Like Darius said, there are two sets of hall sensors connectors. If you have a digital multimeter, you can test each hall sensor to verify that they are all working from those connectors.
I just returned from a trip to my ZEV-dealer in the Netherlands with my ZEV on a trailer with me of course.
The dealer had a video-call with Darus and together they inspected the ZEV T8500.
Indeed it wasn't the hubmotor, for as soon as it was disconnected the wheel turned as normal ( by hand) without any resistance.
The hall sensors were checked but they seemed to be okay. The throttle was checked - just to be sure - but of course no problems with it.
What remained were the BMS and the controller.
At first the BMS seemed to be the most probable cause to me then, for one had said to me that the troubles I had in the beginning of my great tour one and a half week ago, that in a certain town it hadn't reacted to my throttle anymore every time I had to stop at a traffic light and that it only reacted to the throttle again after first putting the contact of and on again, that this could only have been caused by the batteries or the BMS.
But today after checking it the BMS appeared to be okay too.
What remained was the controller. And after all the problem appeared to be that controller !!
My ZEV T8500 still had the old - earlier type - controller with 24 mosfets instead of the 36 mosfets of the newer type.
So my first hunch about the controller a week ago was right after all.
Thanks to Darus my ZEV will now get the new controller, but unfortunately I won't be able to take the ZEV with me when I go to France next sunday.
But there's always next year.
Thnx guys for all your suggestions to this issue.
Give Rajender your address in France. I spoke to him about taking the bike to you. We are going to be loading a large cargo van to go from London to the Lisbon Portugal dealer in about 3 weeks with some LRC and LRC trikes. If at all possible, I can see about getting your bike into the van and delivered. Not a done deal just yet, but let me see if it is possible when the van gets ready to go.
Having had several motorcycles and scooters, what I really miss is having a shop manual for my LRC. In particular, I'm getting brake noise (howling at low speed / partial brake application). What I would have done on my SilverWing is buy new brake pads, or a different type (graphite vs. sintered bronze vs. composite, etc.) I tried roughing up the rotor (at least the outside) and that worked for a while - but I think it's what the pads are made of (although I haven't had them apart yet to see). The bike is so quiet, you don't want howling to be the only thing folks hear! Hahahaha...
The really interesting thing is that the power band persists at higher speeds, sort of like a sportbike 500cc inline-4 engine. On my SilverWing, once the friction clutch actually hooks-up, it has larger initial acceleration (singles or twins have more torque at low RPMs) than the LRC: the LRC doesn't really become a rocket until you're over 40MPH. Even at 60, the acceleration is very good - it feels close to what my 750cc v-4 Magna was when passing, although that would do 120 MPH - so it's difficult to compare. The LRC would probably be quite good passing others at 70 or 80 or even 90 MPH, but by then you would be destroying the life of the battery! (plus there's a limiter in there, I think, to preserve range)
It would be really interesting to run the LRC hubmotors on a dyno. From a simple rated-wattage, the LRC is ca. 42 Hp - but I don't think this is a very useful figure, actually. What I see surfing the web is that there's a lot of variation in outputs between various engine designs and cc ratings. I don't see scooter dyno runs but the wattage seems to place the LRC in the range of a 400cc sportbike. Of course, dyno results are a bad test of a scooter, but for those who haven't relied on an electric, knowing it's approximate cc range helps with the fear of taking the leap. I used to take my 20-year-old 250cc Yamaha Riva on the freeway once in a great while, and tucked on a slight downhill could sometimes get up to ~70 indicated MPH. (Of course, that didn't have real forks, disk brakes, or shocks, and so was a death trap.) The LRC easily and authoritatively handles normal freeway driving.
The main brake noise differences between your Silver Wing and the LRC are:
-The LRC has each disk of quite large diameter. A bit larger than the Silver Wing by about .6 inch
-The LRC has two disks compared to the one of the Silver Wing
-The LRC has two brake calipers
So you have a lot more swept area on the LRC. This means for a given stopping power, there is less pressure per disk. Good for heat and wear, bad for noise. All of that disk and rings, and the brake pads buzz over all of the thru holes, as you say, especially at light braking.
A lot of that can be traced to the pads buzzing in the calipers. You can buy an adhesive called Brake Quiet that goes on the back of the pads that dampens the buzz of the pads, which then does not go to the discs. Any auto parts store. Cheap, in a little squeeze bottle.
Its good practice to use brake cleaner and a clean cloth on cycle disks every few weeks. They pick up road oil, especially in the summer. Another source of noise.
While the motor on the LRC can take much more, the LRC is only actually a 15 kw motor. 20 hp. Electric motors can be wound to make their power anywhere you want it, shifting the curve up or down. Like changing the cam in a gas engine. But everything is a trade off. We could have made it more torque rich, but that would kill that top end rush. If we wind it to have both, it eats more juice and range goes down. So since the bike was designed for highway commuting, we went for more in the 40-65 mph power band, with emphasize on range. I have a nice hot rod motor for and LRC setting that really flies, but its 32% more power hungry.
Thanks for the info - it's good to have the 45-65 MPH horsepower band when you're on the highway! I would mention that in high gear, it works pretty good to get up to highway speeds (maybe like the 250cc Honda XL250R I had?).
Here's another fun fact, based on some data I took yesterday. I fully charged the battery then went on a 20+ mile ride, then recharged it fully with the Kill-a-Watt monitoring the house power into the charger... The $2.30 per gallon is for Arizona where I am, and the $3.30 per gallon is roughly Southern California. I would like to actually calculate the carbon footprint (pounds of CO2 / mile) but I don't know the carbon footprint of our electricity. I got the electricity price by dividing last month's electric bill total by the total measured kWh - this figure is also variable depending on location.
On this trip, the time spent was about 70% 40-55 MPH while going up and down some serious hills (about 1,000 ft elevation change total), and the rest in-town, stop and go, average 30 MPH.
Well my T7100 is back on the road again after replacing the circuit breaker. I had asked Darus to send me a new one as I was having difficulty finding an identical one online with a minimum order quantity of one. I asked Darus to charge my PayPal account. He sent one on his own dime! The bike is over six years old and way past any warranty. Wow, that's customer service, and I don't expect to be so lucky next time.
Nice to be riding electric again.
On another topic, the guy I sold my S6100 to called me hoping I could fix the charger I had built for his S6100 using two MW hrp-600-48 power supplies and a rectifier. Someone had smashed one of the power supplies while he was opportunity charging. I looked at it but nothing I could do. I told him he could buy another HRP-600-48 or instead try the HLG-600H-48 which is a sealed unit (waterproof and no fans) that could be mounted on to the bike as a permanent charger.
I wonder if there is enough clearance under the battery box for mounting two of the HLG-600H-48supplies; and hence, give the bikes a built-in charger.
Nice to see my old S6100 still running though.
I joined V is for Voltage for help troubleshooting my 2016 ZEV S8500. I read both of the long ZEV threads (this one and the one about Leftie's woes), and seek some guidance. I should mention I traded a number of emails with Darus. While I very much appreciate his knowledge and willingness to help, my ignorance about e-scooters must have eventually frustrated him... I stopped hearing back.
The problem: The motor cuts out. I'll be riding along at mid-throttle in "1st", then there's a complete loss of power. If I zero the throttle for a second then twist again, it powers back up. It's been hard to determine the conditions that trigger this. It often coincides with riding over a bump, suggesting a loose/broken connection. But it also happens on smooth pavement, and once or twice even on the center stand. It also seems to happen less when freshly charged, more if I charged a day or more ago. One final clue: sometimes the motor hesitates slightly and I hear a low-pitched growl on initial acceleration. Once I even thought I felt a second of *backwards* torque taking off from a stop. When this hesitation and growling happens — and it will be over the course of a ride, not just once — the cutting out is much worse, happening multiple times in a single block. It's not safe to ride in traffic like this.
I bought the bike from a guy who had it a year and put 600 miles on it. He reported no such problem, but I can't vouch for his honesty. It has a Cycle Analyst (not with throttle control) and an upgraded ZEV 180 amp controller, the former installed by ZEV and the latter by the owner. There are 28 LiFe cells. It has the stock charger, which initially delivers 18 amps, slowly drops to about 15 over the charging period, then immediately to zero... there's no small balancing charge indicated. I've left it on the charger for 48+ hrs, reading zero most of that time. The bike's resting voltage after this is 94.4, never higher. Darus says this is too low to allow top balancing. However, I checked the cell voltages when fully charged and they're all 3.35 +/- .01. I also ran the batteries down (as described in Darus' 6/4 post above) and found 2 cells with voltages around 2.8 as compared to about 3.1 for the rest. I bought a small LiFe charger and charged those 2 cells to slightly exceed the others, then ran the bike down a few more minutes and confirmed all cells matched. (I think this is "bottom balancing" but I'm just learning.) Then I fully charged it as usual. All cells read 3.35. The cutting out still happened.
I also looked for loose connections. The battery cell connections, connections to the controller, BMS, etc all look fine. I thought I found the problem in the wiring behind the headlights. Two connectors had broken locking tabs. (I wish I could tell you what those wires are for, but apparently there's no service manual that Darus can sell me. They each include a fairly thick red wire that I assume carries power.) I joined the connectors tightly with electrical tape, reassembled the plastic, and tried again: the cutting out was worse than ever. Perhaps I loosened another connection in there? Or was it the delay since the last charge?
I don't really care about top speed or range (although both would be nice). I just want to commute to work here in the city without getting killed.
I have 30 years of gas motorcycle riding and wrenching, but never imagined I'd need to become an expert to own a "low maintenance" e-bike. I know a lot more now than I did a month ago, but I'm still a newbie. Please be gentle with me, and help me make this thing road-worthy. Thanks.
A little update, since it took nearly a week to get commenting privileges here. No joy from rechecking connections, applying contact cleaner, etc. However, a fresh charge (temporarily) made the problem go away. I'm convinced now the problem is somehow related to charging and/or balancing. And the growling sound and hesitation do seem to predict it will cut out.
Unfortunately, I have a new problem. The charger (Kingpan KP2000K-120L) is dead. I found it that way at the end of charging the bike. I can't find a fuse on or in it, and the manufacturer's website is in Chinese. Guess I need a new one. Oddly enough, on its final charge it left the bike with 94.8 volts, the highest ever. Maybe that means something?
I had not heard any further questions from you and assumed the problem was solved.
Contact me at sales [at] zelectricvehicle.com and lets see what might be the connection issue. You are getting an intermittent fault somewhere in the wiring, but there is no much wiring to trace. So contact me and lets see how to find it.
I note that you bought a used bike, from someone who had tinkered with it, not under warranty.
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