XB-600 getting rear axle tight

17 posts / 0 new
Last post
gblawler
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 7 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 13:19
Points: 24
XB-600 getting rear axle tight

I have a new XB-600 and am having trouble keeping the rear axle tightened. It seems to loosen up within a couple of days of riding. I am using a crescent wrench to tighten the double nuts on each side of the axle, and find it difficult to get a wrench on inside nut once it is tighened.

The other things that bothers me is that the lock nuts seem to be designed to keep the axle from spinning even if it gets loose, but using the flats on the axle, but that does not seem to work. If the axle nuts get loose at all, the axle starts to rotate backwards when going up a grade. It seems like that will break the wires going into the center of the axle eventually.

Has anyone else had this problem, and what's the best way to tighten the rear axle so it stays tight?

Glenn

JamesS
JamesS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 8 months ago
Joined: Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 16:20
Points: 122
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Glenn,

Not sure why you are having trouble getting rear axle to stay tight. I have had my rear wheel off a few times due to flat tires and I use a cresent wrench to tighten the nuts.

Are you taking the plastic panels off so you can get at the axle better? I did notice that the swing arm is wider than it needs to be and you have to get the first nut real tight to pull it to the rim. then the jam nut should hold.

If all else fails, get some LOCTITE from the auto parts and apply to nuts and axle.

Happy scooting,
JamesS

Happy scooting,
JamesS

AztecFemBone
AztecFemBone's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 14:42
Points: 126
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

I had this very discussion with X-Treme yesterday! You definitely need to make sure you keep them as tight as possible else you'll have a axle spinout and tear up your motor wires. I told the rep that I know they have a problem and they need to figure out a way to fix it.

JamesS, if we use LOCTITE, how do you get the nuts off when you need to?

JamesS
JamesS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 8 months ago
Joined: Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 16:20
Points: 122
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

AztecFemBone,

You would want to use LOCTITE BLUE, as it is removeable with hand tools. RED on the otherhand needs to be heated ro remove it. Here is a link to their site and info on threadlockers.

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=10&subid=48&plid=153

Happy Scooting.
JamesS

Happy scooting,
JamesS

ArcticFox
ArcticFox's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 1 day ago
Joined: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 14:08
Points: 1091
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Is loctite the answer?

The problem is keeping the axle from spinning. I'm guessing the threads for the bolts, on both sides of the motor, are standard lefty-loosy/righty-tighty? If so, one of those is always going to become loose (my early morning guess is the left side). What would have been a smart design idea is to have the left side threads reverse (lefty-tighty/righty-loosy) so when the motor turns, the torque would keep the bolts tight.

But then again, what do I know - I'm not a rocket scientist.

<table border="0" style="border:1px solid #999999; padding:10px;"><tr><td>
<a href="http://www.BaseStationZero.com">[img]http://visforvoltage.org/files/u419...
[size=1][color=black]www.[/color][color=#337799]BaseStationZero[/color][co

gblawler
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 7 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 13:19
Points: 24
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

JamesS,

I put the rear wheel on today and used a crescent wrench (as usual) on the wire side of the rear wheel, but I used a 7/8" socket with a rachet to tighten the opposite side. I think I got it as tight as possible. I am going to keep an eye on the torque on these bolts as I ride it over the next few days. If I detect the nuts are loosening again, I will look for an augment. Locktite is one option. The other I was thinking of was finding replacement nuts with neoprene inserts.

Since the scooter comes with a toolkit, it is surprising that it does not include a wrench that fits the nuts on the rear axle, when this is probably the most important tool you might need away from home. I am planning to buy a 7/8" thin box end wrench with a cutaway, so it will work on the wire side, and keep it in the toolkit on the scooter. I find the C shape of the rear swing arms makes it very difficult to get a good grip on the nuts with a crescent wrench or open end wrench.

I am glad to hear that you have not had a problem. This suggests that getting the rear axle properly tightened and using the double nut locking might work.

Glenn

gblawler
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 7 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 13:19
Points: 24
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

I went shopping for wrenches I can carry on the scooter that will fit the rear axle nuts. I figure I will need 2 wrenches to deal with the double nuts. It looks like the nuts are 7/8" or maybe 22 mm. My 7/8" socket seems to work fine on side without the wire. I know I have seen box end wrenches with a cut out. That would be perfect, but I have been unable to find any of those. A flare nut wrench is close to this, but no one seems to stock them that large. Ace Hardware has one on-line at a reasonable price. So I may go that way. I could always by an inexpensive 7/8" box end wrench ($5.99) and then use my cutoff wheel to make my own cut out.

The only thing I bought was a fairly short crescent wrench that opens to 7/8" and fits nicely under the seat. The crescent wrenches that I already have that open this large were too long to fit comfortably under the seat. I also found a very compact air pump made by Bell for $10 that fits nicely under the seat and a pair of tire tools ($1).

As I mentioned in my last post, I think I have the nuts tightened fine for now, but I want to have some wrenches I can use the make the job straightforward the next time I need to remove the wheel.

Does anyone have any suggestions about wrenches for the rear axle? The socket works great on the side opposite the wire, but a crescent wrench on the wire side is really awkward due to the channel shape of the end of the swing arm.

Does anyone have any experience with "slime" for repairing flats? I figure I will eventually have a flat, and if that works well I will just buy some and keep in under the seat.

Glenn

JamesS
JamesS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 8 months ago
Joined: Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 16:20
Points: 122
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Glenn,

I use slime in my scooter and mountain bike. Works great. Just this am I could see two small spots on my back tire where it had been punctured and the slime stopped the leak. Lots of what we here in New Mexico call goat heads that litter the desert just waiting to hitch a ride in your tire.

Your profile doesn't show where you are at, so if you are in an area that has a lot of below freezing weather and plan to ride all winter then you may want to wait until you have a flat to put the slime in the tube. It will freeze in the tube and then your wheel is out of balance. If freezing is not an issue then I would put the slime in now and avoid the flat altogether. Another problem here in NM is no bottle or can deposit. Lots of broken glass on the streets. I better stop here, or I'll go off on a tangent,' tos no mas ' as they say here, just ain't working.

Happy scooting,
JamesS

Happy scooting,
JamesS

richardb
richardb's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:35
Points: 117
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

The other things that bothers me is that the lock nuts seem to be designed to keep the axle from spinning even if it gets loose, but using the flats on the axle, but that does not seem to work. If the axle nuts get loose at all, the axle starts to rotate backwards when going up a grade. It seems like that will break the wires going into the center of the axle eventually.

Glenn

------------

There are no lock nuts used to mount the motor. I think you must be referring to the washer with tabs that fit into the groove of the dropout. These washers (one on each side) must have flats on the inside which fit snugly over the flats of the axle. These work to some extent. They will absorb the torque of the motor in one direction, and the dynamic braking applied by the motor in the other direction. But if the two nuts are loose, it will allow the axle to rotate a small amount and "hammer" the flat parts so that eventually, both the axle and the inside flats of the washers become rounded, and are no longer effective.
I noted that on the assembly instructions for my x-treme bike, it said to check the tightness of ALL nuts and screws before riding the bike. This is very important. remember that this unit is assembled in China, then shipped half-way around the world, and never checked by a mechanic before it gets to your doorstep. We can probably expect 15% of the bikes that come to the US will not have had these nuts tightened enough.
To tighten the nuts on my bike, I first loosened the outside nut, then tightened the inside nut very tight with a 22mm deep socket on the left side. Then I tightened the jam nut to make sure the inside nut will not come loose. Once that was done, I loosened the right outside nut, tightened the right inside nut with a 22mm open end wrench, then tightened the jam nut against it. I tightened all the nuts to about 30 ft/lb of torque, and made sure the axle did not turn in the process. I haven't had any trouble with my axle rotating so far, but I've only had my bike a little over a month.
Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not

Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not

richardb
richardb's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:35
Points: 117
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Does anyone have any suggestions about wrenches for the rear axle? The socket works great on the side opposite the wire, but a crescent wrench on the wire side is really awkward due to the channel shape of the end of the swing arm.

Does anyone have any experience with "slime" for repairing flats? I figure I will eventually have a flat, and if that works well I will just buy some and keep in under the seat.

Glenn

I use a 22mm open end wrench for the rear axle. I made it by grinding out a 13/16 inch open end wrench. Thank goodness for my Dremel girnder.

I don't like slime for repairing flats. When I'm on the road, and I get a flat, I remove the valve stem, squirt water into the tube till it's about half full, and then air up the tire the rest of the way. While you're riding, centrifugal force will distribute the water around the outside perimeter of the tube where the puncture is likely to be. Water doesn't leak out through the puncture as fast, allowing you to get home to repair the tube normally.

When I repair a flat, I don't remove the wheel. First I find out the location of the puncture and mark it. Then I deflate the tire completely. I then use a bicycle flat repair kit to pull part of one side of the tire off the rim in the area of the puncture. Then I pull the punctured section of the tube out, locate the hole, and apply a patch. Push the tube back, shake some talcum powder into the tire so the tube will not stick, work the tire back onto the rim. Next, inflate the tire, deflate it completely, and then re-inflate. This is to make sure the tube expands into the tire without any pinching.
This can all be done with the bike lying on it's side, and the wheel never gets removed.

Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not

Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not

gblawler
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 7 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 13:19
Points: 24
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Richard,

>There are no lock nuts used to mount the motor. I think you must be >referring to the washer with tabs that fit into the groove of the >dropout. These washers (one on each side) must have flats on the >inside which fit snugly over the flats of the axle.

Thanks for your reply on the wrenches and the slime. I think we are talking about the same thing, but the reason I called them lock nuts is because the manual calls them that. Take a look at this exploded diagram. This is what I use to describe parts when I am talking to X-Treme about what I need:

www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_bicycles/xb600/XB-600_explode_diagram.pdf

I was just thinking today that these lock washers are the only engineered attempt to keep the axle from spinning, and it obviously does not work well. The only thing you can do is keep checking the torque on the rear axle nuts. It occurred to me that the lock washer approach they are using would have half a chance if the lock washers fit more tightly and were hardened steel. I started wondering if those washers might actually be a standard part of some kind and if a hardened version of the same washer might be available.

I also thought of a retro fix involving a cutoff switch attached to a lever secured to the flats on the axle. A fail-safe switch could cut the power to the motor if the axle started to rotate. Since there is already a cutoff switch on the rear brake lever, we could piggy back on that circuit and trigger the cutoff whenever the axle rotates.

Thanks again,

Glenn

richardb
richardb's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:35
Points: 117
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

ArcticFox is correct for most applications, but not for these bikes. The axle feels torque in one direction during acceleration, and in the other direction during dynamic braking. That is why the axle must be tight enough to not move at all. If it does move, it will move back and forth, back and forth, until it wallows out the inside of the locking washers, and when that happens, you get your wires twisted off.
Use the red locktite on the left side, and blue on the right side. Then when you want to get the axle loose, you can heat the left side without burning up the wires that are on the right side.

Dickey_b
Waste Not, Want Not

AztecFemBone
AztecFemBone's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 7 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 - 14:42
Points: 126
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

So far Loctite blue is doing the trick for me. Those nuts have not moved a bit.

gblawler
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 7 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 13:19
Points: 24
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

After learning on this thread that some people have never had a problem with the axle nuts loosening up, I assumed that I just was not getting mine tight enough. I really torqued the nuts down tight a few weeks ago and have been checking them regularly. Sure enough, they have not loosened up at all yet. If I ever have the problem again, I may try the Loctite blue.

Thanks for all the input.

Glenn

mf70
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 1 month ago
Joined: Friday, December 1, 2006 - 09:01
Points: 712
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Having read various user's experiences with loose nuts on the XB-600, I got "into" the rear axle dropout area fairly soon after I got my scoot.

What I found is sketched here:

//i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa122/mf70/XB-600/Axletips.jpg)

The axle was held from turning by TWO lock washers on each side: a "tabbed lock washer" and a "flat plate lock washer" (my terms - I don't see anything like them on the factory exploded diagram).

There were two manufacturing "exceptions" I found. The first was that the tabs on the tabbed lock washer protruded through the slot in the swing arm so that the flat plate lock washer had to be bent before it clamped the axle. This would have made it difficult to get proper tightness on the axle clamping.

I disassembled the parts (which involved pulling the wires from the 6x connector (!)) and ground the tabs until they were just flush with the outer clamping surface of the swing arm. I then flattened the flat plate. I also added a plain washer under the axle nuts, bearing on the slotted flat plate. The slot on the outer flat plate is oversize to allow wheel alignment and chain tensioning (hah), and the surface of the plate is easily chewed up by the locking nuts.

The whole thing was tightened up with a 22mm combination wrench.

The second "exception" was that the dropout notch in the swing arm had been "adjusted" in depth with an angle grinder! I dressed the roughly ground slot and re-painted the surface.

The motor axle tightened up snugly. Time will tell if it is enough.

neilhack3
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 10 months ago
Joined: Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 17:56
Points: 2
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

What do you do when the axil lock washers are already rounded out and now cant stop the axil from spinning. I resoldered my brokin wires whickh were twisted off when the axil turned but without new lock washers which needed flats on the inside of the washers the axil simply twisted of the wires again. Hardware stores dont sell these kind of washers and greenmax distributers are no help whatsoever.

mf70
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 1 month ago
Joined: Friday, December 1, 2006 - 09:01
Points: 712
Re: XB-600 getting rear axle tight

Neil:

First: Congratulations on re-soldering the control wires! That's a NON-trivial job itself.

Yes, the parts page I just posted about, in addition to some life-savers, has a silly assortment of replacement parts. Really, I need the key switch bezel? Those silly swing-arm cover-ups?

I would fab some washers out of tough steel stock. You can drill an axle hole undersize and file it by hand out to the precise dimensions needed. While you're at it, review my sketch and verify that the axle will be:

  1. a) held against torque by the inner and outer washers, and
  2. b) that the lock nuts will correctly bear on the washers and not on the flanges of the swing arm.
  3. c) that the swing arm slots themselves are free of burrs and waste that might interfere with clamping the axle.

MARK

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There is currently 1 user online.

  • flapjacksbestof

Who's new

  • Orin
  • Pzntz
  • kurt.hug
  • qiubosu
  • zewako

Support V is for Voltage