Hello folks.
Apologies- just worked out how to start new thread, but previously posted this as a Reply on Kocho's "New VX-1 Charging Question" thread (in desperation…)
Finally pulled my NiMeH pack apart after a year's V dormancy & prevarication. If I have swollen cells, they're not nearly as obvious as how I'd have imagined, so difficult to chuck out any as yet.
V fitted with a replacement Runke charger in with later (kinder?) software.
2A constant current chargers arriving imminently (ebay UK 3 PIN DC 12V 2A Power Supply/Charger/Adaptor Plug 3528/5050 LED Strip Lights) & preparing to follow posts detailing pack rebuild & balancing- Drew, expect a begging call soon re salvaged replacement cells...
However, cant help wondering if I shouldn't try to buy an old ESD charger so I can install the Laird's software, as looks like there won't be the Runke equivalent in the lifetime of this pack (or the next one).
I'd contemplate a Li+ rebuild, but again, without a kinder charging setup which doesn't cost the earth, I can't see the point. I'm a domestic electrical bodger & have just rebuilt an MZ TS250 from moribund to nearly new, but that's it in terms of my engineering abilities.
I'm not in a position to make informed decisions re niceties of the route to building a Li+version, but would have to follow someone's lead: The question is who?!
So. Q1 Swap Runke to older, fragile ESD, or plug on with Runke & rebuilt pack?
Q2 Is Runke compatible with Li+ rebuild & a BMS?
Q3 Which BMS?
Q4 Or just leave it as a doorstop & use the MZ until a second hand affordable BMW C Evolution turns up…
All advice, replacement cells (& ESD chargers?) gratefully received.
Yours, Matt
Matt
If you like your Vectrix as a machine, the Nissan LEAF cell conversion is very simple and straight forward. It gives the bike a huge range increase to about 90 miles, no need for cell temperature or BMS monitoring. Once you have the Pcanbus lead to load the right software you only need to get a 600mm piece of 35mm sq cable with two round terminals. I had an ESD charger so did not need to get one but you can get a suitable external one for under STG£400. Take a look at the LEAF questions thread.
Peter
Matt
If you like your Vectrix as a machine, the Nissan LEAF cell conversion is very simple and straight forward. It gives the bike a huge range increase to about 90 miles, no need for cell temperature or BMS monitoring. Once you have the Pcanbus lead to load the right software you only need to get a 600mm piece of 35mm sq cable with two round terminals. I had an ESD charger so did not need to get one but you can get a suitable external one for under STG£400. Take a look at the LEAF questions thread.
Peter
Hi, I know,
I must have a look to the leaf questions thread, but a straight answer will be very helpful in this post.
About:
Why it doesn't need a BMS? If I' am correct, there's a built-in BMS in each module to take care of the 4 cells, 2S 2P, but don't you need a BMS for the modules in series?
About
Q1, Use runke. Tthere's a way to reduce charging power to 1000w. We only need a master who would kindly show us how to do this power reduction.
Q2As far as I know, yes. Just install the Li/30 or li/42 firmaware with the original vectrix batteries and original BMS.
Q3. If you use original vectrix BMS or compatible, you will be able to preserve all original functions. Without that BMS I guess the system will not work at all.
Q4. C Evolution is the scooter that the vectrix wanted to be, but could never be. Yes, frankly, forget the vectrix and look for a BMW C evolution.
I have no idea why these leaf cells charge in perfect balance but i had mine tested in a University Electronics laboratory and they were within 0.005V. These cells do not heat up while being charged or discharged.
I cannot answer your questions, What I do know is that I would not waste time and money on NiMh technology cells, what others choose is a matter for themselves. Anyone I am aware of who has actually fitted LEAF cells is very happy indeed.
Yes, please have a look. It is a long thread, but I think many of the questions in this thread here are already answered there.
The Leaf cells do not have a BMS inside them. If they get out of balance, you will need to manually balance them if you do not install a BMS. They seem to stay in balance because they are of good quality and well matched in terms of internal resistance and capacity. Or, at least I hope they do - I just bought a set myself to convert my NiMh VX1 to Li. I wouldn't consider other battery modules for Li conversion at this time due to the convenient form factor and apparently good cell quality. The only reasons to go with other cells that I can think of would be: if you already have them (cost), if you want more capacity (like 100Ah + cells). You can add a BMS to the Leaf cell conversion if you want one. I'll personally start without a BMS and see how the cells behave over time - will add one if needed, if manual balancing becomes a chore down the road.
eBay sells for about $4 a piece simple 8-cell voltage monitors with low voltage alarm. They are 1" big and very easy to use, no need for a separate power supply. One can string 5 of them together and get per-cell voltage monitoring for peace of mind without a BMS. There are 18 cells in my conversion, each has 2 halves, so 36 cells to monitor. I would proably avoid having the voltmeters connected full-time, to minimize the small potential impact they will have on the pack balance in the long run). They consume something like 3ma in use (next to nothing compared to what the VX1 draws when it is off) and if all of them use the same mA over time, they should not disbalance the pack, but who knows...
As for charger, there are a few options (I'm thinking for use with Leaf cells, but can be adapted for your NiMh too):
- Use ESD with the updated firmware for Li
- Use ESD or Runke without a firmware change, but you have to monitor the pack voltage very carefully during charge, and turn it off before it reaches over your desired pack voltage. The original firmware goes higher in voltage than you want in an 18 leaf pack. You can add an in-line automated voltmeter device and a relay to cut the charge - about $100 cost - so you don't have to babysit the charging process.
- Use an aftermarket charger as mentioned (as low as $350 USD for the Elcon one). You can use it as an external charger and keep your original charger to maintain your dashboard's functions when riding. No need for a relay during charge as the aftermarket charger can be programmed to stop as needed.
- Use a handful cheap LED drivers in parallel as external chargers (cheap, under $100 for the set). Long charge times as the cheap ones only do 1-3A (you can use them on the NiMh pack too, if you are worried your Runke will ruin it)
- Go to http://www.vectrixsupport.com and see what they can do for you (for a fee)
- Use fuelfree's services (for a fee) - they claim they have hacked the Runke charger too
And as other options - get a Bramo! At least in the US they have dropped the prices significantly at present (still several times the cost of a Vectrix Li conversion though). Or consider the Zap scooters, which on paper look pretty good (but I have no idea how they ride and their reliability, at least they use off-the-shelf and relatively cheap components, so there is aftermarket for them). The BMW C looks nice, but it is very expensive - don't know when will used ones become common and at what price - it will probably still be considerably more expensive than a nicely converted VX1 Li (but you will get more with it for the added cost)...
when converting to Leaf cells I removed the fans, temp sensors and have no BMS and all the instruments and functions work properly, using custom firmware from The Laird.
Thanks everyone. The "obvious" way to go appears to be via Leaf cells, but then I get a bit hazy.
Would love a straw poll as to who thinks
1) Stick with a tweaked Runke & currently available software
2) Revert to ESD (of unknown provenence/robustness) & decent Laird software
3) Get Aftermarket charger & leave installed Runke kit As Is to keep gauges onside.
Thoughts?
Yours Matt
Thanks everyone. The "obvious" way to go appears to be via Leaf cells, but then I get a bit hazy.
Would love a straw poll as to who thinks
1) Stick with a tweaked Runke & currently available software
2) Revert to ESD (of unknown provenence/robustness) & decent Laird software
3) Get Aftermarket charger & leave installed Runke kit As Is to keep gauges onside.
Thoughts?
Yours Matt
I'd say, see what can be done to customize the software for your Runke at that site I posted above. Talk to the person who offers the service and decide for yourself. Personally, if for a couple of hundred bucks he can get your Runke programmed the way you want it for the Li conversion you have in mind, that would be the most direct and easy way to go. You can charge anywhere, have all your instrumentation working, etc. Unless you can get an ESD charger and put the Laird's software on it for less than it would cost you to reprogram the Runke. I hear the Runke is more reliable than the ESD, so you maybe getting a bit of extra peace of mind keeping it. With fuelfree you must send your hardware to them, where I think this new web site says you will get the hex file to install yourself and you will need to have a CANBus adapter and the scooterdiag software to do it.
It is unlikely that these bikes will have any great value worth preserving by keeping "as factory" The main value will be to the owner, especially when fitted with LEAF cells. I would buy the external quality charger if I was always always charging at home. It would be worth checking out of it fits in the under-seat storage box.
I have seen no definitive information on a hardware/firmware setup for LEAF with Runke unit that is proven to work.
If you must have on-board charging, do as suggested above or get an ESD unit and use the proven Laird set up.
It is about personal choices and not what might suit others, once you are equipped with correct definitive information for each option.
You will also need to upgrade the MC and Charger firmware fit a 200amp Semiconductor main fuse and get a PEAK compatible CANbus lead and software, only a Pcanbus unit will do.
Hello GasMatt,
Yes you can use your Runke Charger, but you must upgrade it with the BC_3005.hex file that I can send you by PM if you want.
I use mine with this revision program and it work fine. I made my conversion in November 2013 with 42 Winston 40A without BMS and after 10 month and 15000km I can drive more than 80km on one charge. Yes I'm sure that you can use your Runke with leaf cell.
Best regards,
Good information Archi13!! Would be good to include on the LEAF thread for those with Runke chargers thinking of going Leaf cells. (or did I miss it!!?)
Good information Archi13!! Would be good to include on the LEAF thread for those with Runke chargers thinking of going Leaf cells. (or did I miss it!!?)
Kocho, Peter, Archi13- Thanks.
Sticking with the Runke makes sense (I paid 500 GBP for it after all) & as it seems it can be tweaked to not nail Leaf cells & retain normal functionality. To get the bike back on the road I think I'm going to repair the NiMeH pack, but seriously start looking for leaf cells. Anyone know a supplier in UK or europe who can oblige?
If the original pack is too far gone, I guess it'll sit in the garage until I'm Leafed Up…
I must say I'm extremely bl00dy nervous re having to take responsibility for upgrading the software, as I'm paranoid I'm going to kill the charger/MC if I screw up.
Archi13- would the tweaked Runke still work with a NiMeH pack? Would make sense to do upgrade before sourcing leaf cells, so if I kill the bike at least I'm not left with a shiny set of Leaf cells & nothing to put them in…
Having asked that, I suspect the answer's No, as the charging characteristics are different.
Kocho- the Dugas Engineering link looks promising, I'll email them & see what they have to offer.
Looks like at some point, I'm going to have to grow a pair, as they say.
Matt
why not contact SOYOUZ and see if he has more of those perfect new LEAF cells He is Rouen France!! I will even hire you my PCANbus lead and software for modest fee !!
Soyouz out of cells... So still mooching after new european source.
The aggro of a NiMeH rebuild seems pointless compared to Leaf rebuild, so old bird remains doorstopped until Leaves flutter into my lap (it's autumn after all).
May take you up on peripherals rental, as long as you're in kicking range if she gets Bricked during ballsed up update...
Yours, Matt
The software upgrade is easy once you follow the instructions exactly. Even I managed to do it with some help on this forum and I am over 60!! If you get your Runke programmed you only have to do the Motor Controller firmware upgrade. Focus on finding LEAF cells, the rest is no big deal.
Will do Peter. Thanks for the sound advice. M
Will do Peter. Thanks for the sound advice. M