Hi,
First post here, this is a great site.
I’m a complete newbie with this technology so forgive me for some of my ignorance. I’ve searched around a bit and came to the conclusion that I might get answers if I make a post outlining my needs.
My wife would like to get an electric vehicle/scooter for her commute which is about 6 miles each way. She does bike some but is in a professional setting and needs to dress up on occasion and not get too sweating during her commute. The commute is mostly flat with 1 large hill – as bikers we use it for training and I’d guess it is close to a 20% grade but only for a quarter of a mile. No highways, a vehicle that could go up to 30 mph would be fine. As for the type of vehicle, I’ve done some initial web search and from the pictures, something about the size of EVT scooter or an Oxygen seems perfect. However I was looking in the small scooter forum and saw a picture of the Kaishan K500W bike – that looks like it has possibilities as well. I’d just like something somewhat enclosed and can do at least 25mph.
I know little about the technology – the only batteries I am familiar with are lead-acid. Is this technology still viable or is it on the way out? In general, how long do batteries last (in terms of years)?
I’d love to spend from $1,000 to $1,500 but if there is a quantum leap in either technology or quality, I’d be willing to go higher. Any thoughts on vehicles in these ranges? I’m not interested in saving money and getting a machine that needs a lot of service, quality will be an important factor.
I live in the Washington DC area – it is weird, I’ve done a web search for scooters in this area and have yet to find any dealers, except for Vespa. Is the market so small that the dealers are few and far between? Is this mostly a mail-order industry (outside of certain cities)? I see references to dealers that sell these online, but several of them appear to have gone out of business – perhaps this market is nowhere near maturity.
Anyhow, thanks for any input, as time gets on I’m sure I’ll have more questions but if anyone can respond, I’d be grateful.
Bob
Bob-
Surprised nobody else responded to your question. First, lead acid is still very viable. SLA....sealed lead acid. What's in most e-bikes and scoots now.
As for your wife's needs. Here's what you need to decide first. E-bike/scooter or more powerful electric scooter (synonymous to 50cc or higher gasoline scooter like Hondas, Vespas, etc.).
You're not going to get 30mph unless you get into the latter ones which will exceed that. And they will have to be registered. And, you'll need to make sure what the laws are regarding these scooters in your area. And, figure $2000 and up for one...usually around $2000-3000.
You'll be running about 60 volts on 5 SLA batteries...at about 2000-3000 watt hubmotor with a top speed of about 40-45mph...range of about 20-25 miles. Or, you may pay a grand or so more and take a look at the new "lithium" battery powered models coming from the same companies...or imported by the same companies selling electrics, etc.
On the other hand, an E-bike/scooter like the model you mentioned (Kaishan) will go from about $800-$1500 in price. I haven't had any experience with that particular model. I own an xtreme xb600...very similar...48 volt, 4 SLA batteries, 600 watt hubmotor. The xb600, like the other "e-bike/scooter" models has pedals that can be attached and a chain so it can be human assisted. However, it is primarily driven by a hubmotor. It looks nothing like a true "e-bike" but like a regular scooter. And, the main reason it is engineered for pedals and such is to meet a federal law applicable in all 50 states regarding "electrically assisted bicycles." It doesn't have to be registered and can be riden anywhere a regular bicycle can. I can't speak absolutely for the other brands but I certainly can tell you that these aren't really designed to be peddled. They have a fair amount of speed simply with the electric motor. You'd have a really hard time even peddling fast enough to keep up with the motor...let alone the layout of the attachable pedals are in no way such that you can easily peddle them. Again, I'm convinced that as some of the distributors of these indicate...that it's a "making them legal like any electric bike" kind of thing. Regardless, your top speed under motor power alone is going to be about 20-22mph on the flats...and while they will go up a hill dependably...it is very slow...about 8-10 mph. Now, having said all that. I love my xtreme xb600. I ride it to work everyday...actually 4 times a day. It has a range of 30 miles...a 600 watt motor...and is less expensive than about any other comparable scoot ($799). Yes, it is from xtreme which alot of people make negative comments about. But, from my experience most of those comments have no real basis. However, the one that does is the way these bikes are shipped....basically a cardboard box on a wooden pallet. Therefore, a good bit of the time you get them "damaged"...nothing major with the important parts...just the "plastics" of the body panels, etc. Yet, xtreme seems to be very good about replacing broken parts that are damaged in the shipping. In my case I was lucky and mine arrived with no damage, although the box was torn in a couple of places. I've read a writeup recently on here about the Kashian...and it seemed to be favorable. However, that model costs more than my xb600 (and has only 500 watt motor) and certainly can't have a greater speed nor range....with that 500 watt motor. And the xtreme xb500 and xb550 sell for less as well. Also, I think my xb600 has higher amp hour batteries which is a plus for range.
Again, decide what speed you need since that will probably be the deciding factor. Your wife shouldn't be riding the xb600 or Kashian...or any "e-bike/scooter" if she is going to be in any kind of "real" traffic. They're just not fast enough when there are hills around especially. I ride mine through "neighborhoods" to my workplace that have very little traffic. Even if there is a bike lane....if there's alot of traffic and a person still wanted to ride in the bike lane...I'd get an e-bike that looks like a bicycle...and you may find one of those that goes upwards of 30mph even without human assist...although well designed so they can easily be humanly assisted. That is a third option. They look like regular bicycles. People look at my xb600 and think it will go 50-60 mph because it doesn't look anything like a true electric bicycle! Not a problem for me though because I don't ride it on any main streets or where there are hardly any cars. When they see something that actually looks more like a bicycle, then I think they give much more consideration since they don't expect it to go very fast.
I really do like my xb600 but it really is a matter of what your needs are. Hope this info helps. Ask me anymore questions you have. Be glad to reply if I have thoughts on it or an answer.
Gushar
Gus
Bob-
An additional thought here....
I'd take a look at the XM3000 in particular that is coming out I think this month. It is the predecessor to the XM2000 which alot of folks here purchased. It had some bugs, a two speed manual shifter that seemed to cause problems...and some battery issues I think. But, it was a fairly good choice for some.
The 3000 is supposed to be much better...and the guy in China that manufactures and exports them (Mountain Chen) posts to this forum (check out his posts). He seems to have the best scoots at the best prices. His products are actually sold under a few different brands I think....but I know he said the new XM3000 and 3500 are his products...being sold by xtreme. He seems to be a very knowledgeable manufacturer. They'll be drop shipped by any online dealer you purchase from (no direct purchase from xtreme). Xtreme has a huge warehouse in IOWA and they drop ship all of their products from there. Also, a couple of the guys on here, very friendly, dependable and knowledgeable (JD "John" and ArticFox) both are xtreme dealers with websites you can order from. I bought my xb600 via AF's website. Great customer service from him...and you'd get the same I know from JD.
Gushar
Gus
Gushar,
Thanks so much for your comments, exactly what I'm hoping to get here. One thing that has become apparent is that (unfortunately) this market is still in an early adapter phase, it isn't big enough to support any sort or extensive dealer network. Having bikes dropped shipped may be fine, but for the large market, going to a local dealer will be the preferred method for something like this. That being said, I'm not opposed to an internet-based sale, I just hope the market catches on soon (I'm sure everyone here has that hope).
The most interesting point you make deals with traffic & the viability of a scooter. My wife's commute is probably 75% back streets, but there is a time where she is on a road with a speed limit of 35 (I think). That probably means that most cars are going 40 or so. Now she doesn't commute during peak rush hour and I've ridden that route on a bike, it isn't too bad but we all know unconscious and inconsiderate drivers....
Thanks again, I'll give a good look at the XM3000!
Bob
I actually meant to write above...that the XM3000 is the successor, not predecessor, to the XM2000...and apparently you were aware of my error...but just wanted to correct that for those who might not. I do think the XM3000 may be just what you're looking for. I agree somewhat about dealers...but you have to remember this. Keeping the price down on these scooters is important to the importers so sales will stay up. This is a "niche" market. If they try to do business through dealer networks that will increase the price alot at the consumer end I think...and that is why I believe that companies like xtreme haven't tried to go that route. As well, the "scooter" market is still predominantly gasoline and those are dominated in the US by the big guys...who load their showrooms mainly with motorcycles (Honda, Yamaha, etc.). Scooters I'm sure are just a novelty in most of these dealers...even though I heard recently that scooter sales have increased alot with the increase cost of gasoline. But, I bet motorcycle sales increased even more.
Gushar
Gus
Hello Bob and welcome to visforvoltage. I'm the guy that wrote the Kaishan review, and I thought I'd give a few more details about e-biking in general. This time of year (spring) there's a lot of people who come up to the Kaishan and say, "that's so cute, I'd love to have one," and I always try to ask what would hold them back from actually purchasing. From what I can tell, most will feel uncomfortable about riding a slow, small vehicle in amongst faster and heavier gas machines. I'ts a valid point if I think about how many times I've been cut off in traffic (on my gas scooter), or the closer calls I've had where I was the person at fault- applying those situations to a tiny e-bike would be unnerving. I definitely make eye contact with drivers when I come to an intersection, just to know I'm being seen, and use the motorcycle mantra, 'always leave myself a way out.'
Still people are buying these machines- the dealer currently has a waiting list, and I'm philisophical about being in an accident. It's like that saying, ships in harbour are safe, but that's not what ships are made for. I use the bicycle lanes and trails where I live (Victoria, BC) and I have, in the last three years, sensed that people are now aware of the bikes and no longer say, "why is that scooter going so slow?", but instead realize their limitations. I used to get yelled at on the commuter trails, but it's very infrequent these days.
Another thing to consider, as mentioned in my review, it what happens if the bike quits or has a flat tire. Will the dealer pick it up? Do you have a way of transporting it yourself? After all, it is difficult to change a back tire flat in a January rainstorm, I'd have to have tools, shelter and a lot of time.
SLA batteries are still viable, in my oppinion, at least untill I can find a local dealer who has LifePo's with a warrenty and the availablity of having another 48v loaner pack ready to go if my current setup needed servicing. This past Saturday, May 17, I went for a 43km ride and used 14.2amp/hours on an SLA that provides 22amp/hours according to the literature. I varied the speed, sometimes I used the economy setting, sometimes the higher power, but I estimate about 60km. Still, I wouldn't continue to ride untill the batteries are low, I'd charge whenever there's an available plugin.
Something else to consider is the security of the bike. I'm fortunate that I have a locked shed, inside a locked yard, with an alarm on the Kaishan, with a locking steering mechanism when the key is removed. But that's just me, because I've had a bike stolen from the street.
So with that, I wish you well Bob, and hope this is helpful. I'm a convert to these bikes and from the first day I say one, I knew I'd buy. And again, an e-bike purchase comes down the dealership and service. Dale
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