Now We have an oil well spewing oil in the Golf and our thought is to burn it ?? Polluting the earth is the pollution of our mind!! did WE calculate this event into the whole global change ?? Saddam's field's obliviously we burn a lot more in our cars and trucks to go to the grocery store and buy oranges from Argentine !! we need to hurry LaTeR
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Yeah, but oil spills are the price of oil exploration and exploitation. The tiny amount of pollution created is infinitesimal in contrast to the volcanic explosion in Iceland. (poor ole Iceland, broke one day, blown up the next!).
What is more annoying is the recent near disaster of the container ship run aground on the World heritage listed great barrier reef. This completely avoidable near disaster, prove once again the terrible pollution risk to maritime environments created by shipping operating on Bunker Oil. Since this is about the most devastatingly pollutant fuel source available to marine life, it is surprising that very few environmental organisations seem to care, and the only serious research into a replacement fuel, is being conducted by BP, an oil company!
marcopolo
Hmmm.... I spoke to soon! It would appear that this oil spill is going to be more serious than predicted. It's ironic that most sincerely environmentally active of the Major oil companies, BP, is the operator of the rig!
Roll on EV technology!
marcopolo
What a disaster we are seeing! I live in the area of Florida where we could potentially see this oil on our beaches by Monday. And that doesn't even address the harm it is causing out in the Gulf as I write. Maybe, just maybe all of these oil hogs are now seeing the truth of what our need and dependence on oil can really do to this country. But probably not...many people think so shallow even as this is happening. Does anyone even grasp the economic effect this may have...and not just in my community but nationwide? It's a domino effect. Much of the shellfish industry, about 75% of shrimp and oysters, come from this area. Disaster in that industry alone will have rippling effects across all kinds of other industry. Tourism is absolutely essential to Florida's economy. What happens in Florida tourism from this will ripple likewise nationwide in all kinds of ways. Do you also know that Eglin Air Force Base where very important national defense weapons testing goes on...out over the gulf...cannot be continued until this mess is resolved? And, that the Navy will not conduct any training, testing in the vicinity of oil wells for obvious reasons. It's been one thing that our representatives in Florida have used regarding this area...for the last several years to stem the efforts of those who push for close shore drilling in our area of the Gulf Coast. And again think about what effect this is having on animals and plantlife. It's looking like a disaster that will have adverse affects for all of us for many years to come. And where is the CEO of BP? Nowhere to be found...apparently hiding as "Rome burns." And you all want to know what makes insult to injury regarding this? Lawsuits, because of these pro oil legislators, etc., are capped at like $75,000 unless you can show negligence on BP's behalf. And you know what that means...years of legal proceedings trying to show that...if that is the case...which it's looking more and more like that was the case with some defective concrete being used around the well...and not properly checked prior to it's use. But, I'll make the same statement as James Carville did yesterday...despite how long it might take to show that negligence...."BP Oil will become Louisiana Petroleum" if they don't get a handle on this disaster!
Anyway, don't need to vent this more. Folks, this is just something that will affect us all in one way or another especially if they don't soon get a handle on this and get that leak stopped! Great damage has already been done to the environment by this...and catastrophic damage will occur if they don't get it stopped soon. That is the reality.
Gus
Florida Gulf Coast
Gus
I can accept your indignation over the shrimp industry etc..However you seem to be a little confused about the value of the environment! I'm not sure that the pristine condition of the Gulf is enhanced by US weapons testinG,..No matter how important to 'National Defence"!
Gus, there is no great conspiracy! The CEO of BP is not 'in hiding'. He, like all relevant BP personnel are working tirelessly to deal with the ramifications of this catastrophe. This spill is a very expensive and heartbreaking disaster for BP!
Oil exploration is not immoral, nor illegal!
It's risky, expensive and increasingly, inherently dangerous. This unhelpful, 'gotcha' , 'some one's gotta be blamed", mentality, is becoming a national phobia! BP have acted promptly, properly, and with a maximum effort to mitigate and contain this disaster. Oil exploration is never easy, accidents of this sort will continue to occur, especially as drilling becomes more marginal and more difficult.
I like Jim Carville, but to the best of my knowledge he possesses no engineering qualifications!
I don't see how one more grandstanding, loudmouthed, opportunistic politician. can be of any use at this point except, to detract from the really serious task of containing the disaster!
Remember, those 'important US Air-force Jets fly on OIL!
marcopolo
Marcopolo I have to take issue with some of your response to my post.
First, we have not seen or heard from the CEO of BP. In virtually every other disaster of this magnitude it is protocol for the head of a company or agency to appear and make some kind of statement to the public. As I write the President is on his way to Louisiana...and we have yet to see or hear from the CEO of BP. I can tell you why I believe we haven't. I believe they have "circled the wagons" with the attorneys and don't want to make any statements they don't have to...answer any questions they don't have to. It's becoming apparent there was something defective here, and understandably BP is concerned about their liability. But they still have a public obligation to respond appropriately...and that means the top person responding. It might have been due to "negligence" or cost cutting, or it might not. Regardless, there is some liability and I can assure you residents along our beaches, as well as businesses, have already been instructed by local government to take photographs of their property, shoreline, etc. to document how it was prior to this in preparation for coming litigation if it becomes necessary. I certainly agree with a person's right to legal action in such case. As many have commented, BP takes a certain risk to drill and while you might want to believe that incentive is moreso to provide energy to America I would wager that 99% of that decision is a money/business decision. And there's nothing wrong with that. But, when you gamble to make money...and you mess up big time...you might just have to pay big time! Protecting the company is obviously a foremost concern. That means getting this well leak under control...but it also means saying as little as possible and preparing for the onslaught of future lawsuits...and the latter is no doubt why we have not heard from the CEO of this company. Also, I believe they were aware of much more they weren't saying about the seriousness of the problem, in the first few days...not even to the feds. That was irresponsible at the least if in fact I am correct. That is my opinon and only an opinion however. The coming investigation will bare out the facts I hope from the fiction.
Also, I don't believe national security and protecting the environment are mutually exclusive concerns. In fact I believe in alot of ways the opposite. Respectfully, I don't believe that you know the mission of Eglin Air Force Base and it's vital importance to the military of this country. Again, the testing that goes on there is not duplicated ANYWHERE in this country. I believe in a good national defense and while I am not a proponent of jumping into other country's affairs especially while deceiving the American people to support such an act...I do believe in defending this country. The mission at Eglin Air Force Base is vitally important in that regard. Many of the weapons testing is done in the Gulf where weapons are launched from ships to the "range" on Eglin Air Force Base Reserve. Fortunately, as I pointed out in the previous post, our military leaders understand that it is dangerous for those operations to go on around oil wells and so does some of our state political leaders. In fact we have state laws here in Florida that prevent drilling in those areas, as well as within a minimum distance from all our shorelines.
President Obama as we all know recently "opened" that up for possible changes. However, that has and looks like it will be rescinded indefinitely...considering this disaster. Nonetheless, this state was prepared to challenge that and Senator Nelson of Florida had already contacted the White House as well as the military leaders to confront that issue. So again, I was addressing different issues associated with this oil spill and that is but one of them...but in my opinion a very important one.
I'm certainly not attempting to make this a "political issue" here although it is in reality. And I'm not simply attempting to villify BP. But, and this is a large "but," I get very tired of the extreme imbalance that continues to be perpetrated by large corporations regarding "responsiblity and profits"...including the wall street debacle, the auto manufacturer's shortsightedness, and the like. I believe a company can make money and also be responsible. This matter is already beginning to show major irresponsibility by BP and well...we'll see what comes out in the future. Also, I believe that it is becoming apparent that there has not been sufficient disaster control planning and technology which supports drilling oil even this close to our shorelines...must less in closer as many "politicians" have proposed. And finally I'll just add that I write these comments here because I happen to believe that most of the folks that have this avid interest in electric technology come here not because they simply enjoy riding an electric scooter or driving an electric car...but they really do believe this country has to make fundamental changes both for the protection of the environment and ultimately our own protection as a continuing species! And many of those changes I think we all know...are very dependent upon "how" industry and the "business" environment behaves.
Just my .02 worth of reply...and again I respect your opinions but apparently we have some differences and I respect that.
Gushar
Gus
There is enough fault to blame EVERY ONE OF US!!! I to enjoy oranges from Argentina , driving 70mph on the FREE way, and flying to Hawaii for the week end BUT I chose not to because my eyes can see the damage and I CARE not about national security or the price of oil! I care about God"s garden, which we were given to tend and husband with love and gratitude !! If we fail to learn that humankind is doomed LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
Firstly, let me thank you for your well written and courteous response.
However, I think in your indignation, you have overlooked two important items. The first is that everyone at BP, from the Chairmans obligatory statement to the Stock Exchange and BP CEO Tony Hayward have been publishing statements from the very first day of the disaster! As the following excerpt will attest IE:
This is just ONE of over two hundred TV, Radio, and other media interviews given by BP senior executives, including BP USA President, Lamar Mackay. If no one contacted you personally, well it could just be these guys are a little busy trying to contain an oil spill, dealing with the logistics of resources and providing for the relatives of the 11 men who died!!
The situation for BP has not been assisted by the greed driven tactics of ambulance chasing, lawyers operating within the uniquely litigious US legal system! The first law suit was filed 11 minutes after the first reports of the disaster were even confirmed! This must be a record, even for the US! Since then the family's, REMEMBER THEM?, of the 11 men killed, have been besieged by a media feeding-frenzy! One relative reports being approached by no less than 80 law firms within the first 12 hours!
BP is largely self insured, as during Lord Browne's tenure as CEO, BP became a major oil industry insurer. As a result, this disaster becomes very complex indeed, as the interests and position of Swiss RE and other underwriters will have to be considered.
This is not "circling the waggons", it's simply trying to assess, and address what will become a very complex matter. Made even more complicated since BP only leases the rig, and can't speak for the owners.
The problem corporations endure when facing a barrage of lawsuits, many ill-conceived and most opportunistic, is that once the matter is before the courts, the corporation is limited as to what can be said in public. The Defendant Corporation always looks callous, or unresponsive, when in fact it is simply obeying the law. (often in several differing legal jurisdictions, simultaneously).
Duh, d'ya think?
No, not at all, but it is hypocritical to blame BP for risks involved in providing the lifeblood of the US military establishment, while excusing the US military as a 'necessary' polluter.
.
Well it's certainly good to see you've kept an opened mind! "major irresponsibility", eh! Well I guess that goes with the simplistic corporate bashing, conspiracy theories that those who know nothing, always expound in place of logic and rationality. Well, why not? Currently, the entire US is indulging in an orgy of 'let's find the scapgoat!'
Strawistle is quite correct, it is easier to find someone to blame than examine ourselves, and accept our own responsibilities.
Don't get me wrong, I not anti-American! In fact, I recently had the misfortune of being forced to share an airline compartment with three UK Labour MP's, their staff and two of their Australian socialist counterparts. The subject of their loud and alcohol-fuelled conversation, was an orgy of rejoicing at their mutual belief that the emerging motor vehicle industry of the PRC would soon eclipse Ford and other US makers. In their opinion, this would somehow be a good thing for the planet!
The fact that such a event would destroy the lively hoods of their constituents in favour of a regime whose labour practises they would loudly decry as criminal if practised by the despised Ford,did not strike them as ironic! An especially vitriolic attack was reserved for the ethics of Ford Chairman, Bill Ford. The accuracy of the charges, reminded me of your own willingness to jump to conclusions, with incorrect, or simply no evidence!
The accusation that Bill Ford greedily draws an "obscene salary" (entirely donated to worthy causes), and is a great enemy of the environment. (In fact, Bill Ford,was for many years among his peers a lone campaigner for 'green' causes).The Ford family for many years invested and supported EV makers, donated enormous sums for battery and technoogy research to reduce the environmental impact of auto-manufacture.
Meanwhile, these wretched politicians represent governments that have constantly failed to support the introduction of EV's. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!
Yes, it's true, any oil spill is a disaster! But BP, is not Exxon or Chevron! There has been no 'cover-up', no back door deals, no 'irresponsibility"! The company has, and is, acting with speed, candour, efficiency, and diligence to minimise the disaster. It's efforts are not assisted by the armchair wisdom of self-proclaimed self righteous critics, an opportunistic, sensationalist media, bottom feeding lawyers, and politicians attempting to revive the ethics of Huey Long!
I am truly sorry for the loss of the environment near your home. But, this is the price to be paid for all those highly sophisticated Jets, and the rest of the US defence shield.
marcopolo
Well, again I'll have to respectfully disagree with most of what Marcopolo wrote in reply. I continue to believe that business/industry in this country have been on a course of "shortsighted" planning (in the name of greed/profits) in all kinds of ways and this is but another example. The "device" that they have spoke of building to try and contain this leak, taking two months to construct, should have already been built before it was needed. It remains clear at least to me that folks were hedging their bets on this type accident never happening...and when one looks at the catastrophic consequences of this...there simply was no excuse for not having a "plan B" in the event the cited "cutoff valve" malfunctioned. Having only surface booms and chemical dispersants as a backup, representing primitive technology at best, is simply not acceptable. Obviously much of what I write and what Marcopolo and others write here about this subject are "opinions." Therefore, we could go on and on and back and forth so again I'll just agree respectfully to disagree.
Gus
Gus
Well that's a kind of disappointing, but not unexpected, cop out!
In your last posts, you accused BP's CEO, and senior executives of contemptuous silence. Outraged and indignant accusations such as "And where is the CEO of BP? Nowhere to be found...apparently hiding as Rome burns." "we have yet to see or hear from the CEO of BP." "we have not heard from the CEO of this (BP)company".
When confronted with black and white evidence to the contrary, why can't you just be gracious, and admit that those accusations were completely inaccurate! Why not simply admit you owe those you maligned an apology? (You don't have to like someone, to admit your accusations were inaccurate).
This is not a difference of 'opinions', but easily verifiable FACTS!!.
As far as 'plan 'B', or any other such nonsense, you are, I take it, an oil spill containment expert? No? Every disaster always has people, who from the safety of armchairs, pontificate about who is to blame and how they could have done it better!
To quote Benjamin Franklin, "Hindsight is the wisest, but the most assuredly useless,form of sight!
marcopolo
A couple of points to add to the mix:
- I actually feel sorriest for the Gulf Coast residents whose livelihoods rely on the region. Not on whether BP execs take some justified or unjustified heat. AFAIK, those residents should get some form of compensation from BP. However, I bet most of them would prefer to be able to continue at their jobs. I wonder how much long term economic effect this will have? Unlike Exxon-Valdez which happened in a fairly remote area of Alaska this has happened in a much more heavily populated area.
- I read somewhere that US law is less stringent than other laws when it comes to the failsafe apparatus that has to be in place on these types of rigs? Something about an extra gadget that might have prevented this? Yes, this is hindsight. However I'm sure oil companies (including BP) lobby hard to have the most favorable laws they can in any given region. All in the name of profit. They choose to do their own "risk-benefit" analysis - but they do so with dollars being the prime attribute. Just like the geniuses on Wall Street - hey, marcopolo if you're going to bring in drunken, loudmouth socialists on a plane then I'm going to bring in condescending, elitist, self-serving bankers. You can replace the B with a W if you'd like to know how I feel about those particular folks.
- I bet BP will drag out compensation claims as long as possible until a more favorable administration is in place and then seek to get the amounts reduced. Didn't Exxon manage to shirk most of it's fiscal responsibility from the Valdez? Aren't the board and CEO of BP duty bound to minimize the financial fallout to their company by whatever (legal) means possible? Thus, won't they use Exxon as a model to learn from? Sorry marcopolo, I just don't think BP needs much in the way of sympathy.
Sigh.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Well, I see as usual every forum has it's users that simply want to debate endlessly their OPINIONS...not facts but opinions. Marcopolo, either you work for the oil industry or BP in particular...or either you are just one of those people who needs to argue your opinions endlessly. I have tried in vain obviously to be respectful of your opinions as different as they are from mine. And, I still respect those "OPINIONS." However, I simply chose, and choose, to not waste my time with those who "argue a point" simply for the sake of argument. I consider that a waste of everyone's time here and again respectfully decline your attempt to further that nonsense.
Good Day,
Gus
Gus
here is a quote from a news report "Those who lived through the Valdez catastrophe said they felt enormous sorrow for the Gulf Coast because they know how painful it will all be, especially once the prolonged legal battles begin over compensation. The Valdez dispute was agonizingly slow and marked by several frustrating appeals." and they still have thousands of gal. of crude oil on shore ! " it smells like a gas station" ! I am sure GOD feels the same sorrow! LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
I'm not sure why you place BP above Exxon or Chevron. A Google search on "BP Safety Record" shows a fair number of "shenanigans". Take this one from 2007 as an example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/2808376/BPs-safety-record-is-back-in-the-spotlight.html
I don't "blame" BP for this - but I don't see why they deserve your support over a Chevron or an Exxon. Their prime objective is to make money - I expect they play the game the same way as Chevron or Exxon. Perhaps they just have a better investor PR arm?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
FWIW - I'm glad you're of the mind to respect that y'all disagree on this. What I want to go into is whether Marcopolo has to be an employee of the oil industry to hold those opinions.
What I take from having debated with him myself is that one doesn't have to be an oil industry employee to have a similar mind-set. He strikes me as a business man investor (as he's said) who has the goals and worldview of a fellow for whom business must go on and not be impeded in any way.
There are many who think the needs of business survival trump the needs of we the people to have a beautiful environment. That the needs of business survival trump everything that we the people may hold dear.
An argument they might trot out is that it's businesses who provide all the wonderous goods and services in the stores, and that business survival is a requirement for those goods and services to be there. Further the existing game of business operation demands a high growth rate in business activity, and that anything which threatens the business growth threatens the overall game.
From my perspective that is an overrated point of view. I think the needs of humans and our society is more important than the all holy business growth game. And that the business growth game is what's threatening us with extinction. The business growth game is an exponential curve which will surely swamp the ability of the planet to provide for us.
er.. that went off on a tangent ... basically what I'm trying to say is a business person like marcopolo seems to be has a point of view the rest of us might not have. Business is more important than people, rather than people being more important than business.
- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
The original leak estimate was 1,000 barrels per day. That was quickly revised to 5,000 barrels per day. Newer estimates are now at 25,000 barrels per day. Since a fully functioning well can produce 60,000 barrels per day, we know this well is not flowing wide open yet, but that may change as grit in the oil continues to wear at the remaining pipes.
At 25,0000 barrels per day, this leak will exceed the Exxon Valdez every couple of days. And there are estimates by experts that it could take 90 days to cap this leak, given a similar situation elsewhere. That amount of oil will cause a massive ecological disruption for at least a decade.
The seafood industry in the state of Louisiana is worth around $2.5 Billion per year. I don't know what the neighboring states are worth, but it has to be a similar number. And tourism on those beaches must be worth similar values, billions of dollars a year.
So, the direct economic damage from this particular spill appears to be in the neighborhood of a hundred billion dollars. That's damage to people's jobs, their livelihoods, their ability to earn a living.
And the blowout control device that wasn't used on this particular wellhead? Half a million dollars each. (Not that they always work, but they are required by law in other countries because they at least offer another chance at controlling such damage.)
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
It's not just the $$$ cost... it's a food security issue. This is going to interrupt the food supply because of fisheries already closed due to the spill and others likely to be closed soon due to the spill.
The fact that these oil wells are in deep water is, in my mind, a symptom of oil supply problems discussed in peak oil. Namely ... the "easy oil" is gone and what's left is the oil that's expensive to get to, expensive to extract, and we now know expensive to fix if any problems occur.
I read an article this morning about another oil well explosion a few months ago in the Timor Sea. That one, too, was in deep water and that one too didn't have the blowout control device. "Fortunately" that one was far enough offshore that the oil didn't come on shore and disrupt fisheries. Still it took a couple months for that one to get fixed.
- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
I think you're being a bit loose/generous with your numbers - but I could be wrong. However, BP's total compensation liability is apparently legally capped at $75M (the cost of cleanup is not capped). I think the lobbying for a cap came about after the Exxon-Valdez event. Now, I'm sure marcopolo will tell us that BP didn't lobby for that - so, can we assume they'll ignore the cap and pay any and all reasonable claims? (yes, that's just flame bait).
They did have a blowout control device - it didn't function properly, despite having been checked 10 days previously. There's some form of extra widget that can be added to your regular "blowout device" to make it more better. Apparently Norwegian's demand that extra feature - and the US doesn't.
You know who is assured to get rich out of all of this - regardless of who pays what to whom. The lawyers...
What a mess!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Maybe the silver-lining to this cloud will be that it forces a spotlight on what that means in very graphic terms? Maybe this will be a boost to "clean energy" and "clean transportation"?
Charge, baby, charge! not drill, baby, drill...
(although I expect the politician responsible for "drill baby drill" catch phrase will soon be telling us that this is yet another reason to drill in Alaska - presumably that's an easier environment to control)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Just to clarify. I am not an employee of any oil company! My dispute with Gushar was concerned with the accuracy of his accusations. I believe it to be a very bad principle to allow smears, false accusations, and disinformation to be published, unchallenged. This principle has nothing to do with the virtue of the target of falsehoods. I have no great love for the UK journalist, George Monbiot, but I condemn his detractors publishing, false or inaccurate, information to his detriment!
I would have felt that as a journalist, you would applaud the principle of fairness and accuracy.
As to your other point, the duty of the Directors of International Corporations has become very complicated, On the one hand, Directors, like the corporations they lead, must be good corporate citizens and obey the law. But, which laws? This is very difficult when a corporation is spread through many very different jurisdictions.
Ethical morality, and good corporate governance are very complex issues.
"..that we the people may hold dear". Sounds great! But, again, which 'people'?, and what do they "hold dear?" The problem of a 'noble vs Evil, idealistic approach, is it sound terrific, but is meaningless on examination. The same politicians who gratuitously announce "we will keep the boot on the neck of BP', are just hypocrites, feeding populist progagands to suckers, in order to divert attention from the part they played in this environmental disaster. (Always find a scapgoat!)
Well, who can argue with such a noble sentiment! Hang on, ..oh yeah, that's right! Most human activity is involved in some form of business. So what you are saying is, stop human activity? Or, perhaps just that human activity that offends your sensitivities?
It is idiotic to suppose that BPpropagandascapegoat, in someway, wanted this disaster. No evidence has emerged of wonton negligence. The US goverment, and the US people want the prosperity and security US oil exploration brings. That exploration and exploitation has established risks! Screeming at the oil company is hypocritcal.
If the US doesn't want these disasters. Simple! Don't issue the licences.
The US Government asked BPwantongovernmentScreaminghypocritical take over these leases. It is an absolute disaster for BP, particularly disappointing as BPdisappointing is the worlds largest investor in alternate energy R&D. As result of this potentially $ 20 billion loss BP will have to divert funds from alternate fuel R&D, in order to pay for the consequences of this catastrophe.
Exactly who will that benefit?
".. we the people may hold dear". Well, aren't the millions of people dependant on the oil industry, people? What exactly do most people hold dear? Sadly, it isn't only the environment! People want job security, education, income protection, all the infrastructure that business provides.(or are some 'people' disqualified)
Of course business must 'go on', but no,(well few) modern, practical businesspeople think like J.Peirpont Morgan! It is the duty of government to provide a regulatory balance between the public and private interest. However, it is also irrefutable that nearly all modern economic catastrophies are the result of inappropriate or ill-advised government regulatory failures. In general, it's ill-conceived idealistic regulations, not corporate greed, that create the greatest suffering.
We are in furious agreement of the increasing risk of oil exploitation. It is very important that new technologies replace oil as a fuel and make such risky exploination finacially untenable and unnecessary.
John, if you could get a party of drunken, loudmouth socialists on a plane, then add a group of condescending, elitist, self-serving bankers, I'll pay for the Tickets!! Hell, I'll even pay for the drinks!!
Why do I put BPcatastropheExactly in a dicatastrophesexploitationfinanciallyfferent catagory than Exxon or Chevron? Well, BPcategory ain't perfect, but in general, BP (especially in Lord Browns time) has displayed a far greater environmental awareness,coupled with serious investment in alternate fuels and environmental issues. BP,s leadership in diversification into alternate fuels and environmental practices, goes far beyond that of simple PR gestures. BPpractises is the world largest Solar energy company, R&D for maritime bunker oil replacement .. etc.
I believe that when you level criticism of negatives, you should also acknowledge positives.
The current drama being played out in the gulf will be a tragedy for many years to come. There are no hero's in a situation like this, but it's pointless to unfairly create villains. The only real hero's are the guy's striving to contain and clean-up the mess, and the countless volunteers who will work unselfishly to restore the coastline.
marcopolo
So if you cannot argue with it, call it an inappropriate name and try to ridicule it; then, state something obvious but meaningless, and finally continue along as if you had successfully argued against it.....
I think you are in a form of denial and actually incapable of seeing it that way!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Mik, obviously you take exception to my style! Well fair enough! I don't like it much! In the words of 'Philip Marlow,"I worry about on long winter evenings,".
However, I think that my content is valid. Business is all about human activity. The entire economy is based on business activity. From the artist striving to sell his paintings to the poet dreaming of recognition,is reliant on business to achieve his dreams.
Business is all about human creativity. It's not the enemy of mankind, nor is it the enemy of the environment. Every piece, every development, every advance it technology, is reliant upon business activity.
Now Mik, you and I have lived long enough to accept that nothing is 100% perfect!
Business will not lead human or the planet to extinction! Governments might, idealism might, but business? Never! Why? Well, there would be no profit in it!
Mik,John, David, if you disagree here an empirical test.
Try making a list of causes of economic disasters caused by 'business' and I'll compile a list of ideologically driven government causes of economic failure. See which is longer! Then tell me I am wrong?1
marcopolo
As always you make a good point - however there's a factoid that businesses have proven over and over and over that they're willing to screw everyone. They're willing to cut corners, make shoddy poisonous products, etc, the list goes on and on, all in the name of squeezing out a few more pennies of profit. Part of the causation is the ideology that they serve the shareholders and the shareholders are demanding ever higher profit.
This is a great point. At the end of the day a business doesn't exist unless there are humans performing every task of the business. It means every action a business takes is performed by humans choosing to do those things.
However, somehow when you get a bunch of people together to form an entity we call "business" they, as a group, in some cases, are willing to do things that harm people.
I actually don't see it as a business-versus-government debate. The way I see it both groups are acting in concert. Ideally government would be acting to check business excesses, but the decades have eroded the rules that governments use to do so, and have found governments to be more willing to hop into bed with business.
The pattern which leads to extinction is the exponential nature of the demands for growth. This leads into unsustainable numbers. A part of the causation of how this is exponential is specifically because of the demand for ever more profit.
- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
Alan Greenspan held this view for his entire life, until last year. He finally admitted that it was completely and utterly false. The problem is twofold: a business can no longer sacrifice short term profit even if it will destroy it's long term profit. So if there's a short term profit to be made from destroying the planet, there's no question that (at least some) businesses will take that path. A good example of this is the auto industry a few decades back: they agreed with the unions to offer strong retirement packages in exchange for lower working wages. That allows for great short term profit, but eventually the weight of retirement obligations would make the automakers unable to generate any profit at all.
The second problem is that individuals who work within a business can be strongly motivated to make a personal profit at the expense of the company they work for. This has been a major factor in the recent banking failures, individuals make millions of dollars in commissions/bonuses for creating bad investment packages, causing massive trouble for the parent company and the economy as a whole. Goldman Sachs seems to be the current poster child for this type of behavior, but the problem is endemic in Wall Street. Given the size of annual bonuses, this type of behavior is massively rewarded and thus hard to prevent.
This was my point earlier: BP decided to skip using the acoustic trigger for their blowout prevention device, because they cost $500,000 each. That's a good short term decision for BP, but it almost certainly will result in a hundred billion dollars in long-term damages to the gulf coast economy. And more than that, the oil is now within days of entering the Loop current, which is the origin of the Gulf Stream current. That means that it will begin flowing towards the Florida Keys, and their very vulnerable reef systems. (over $20 billion a year in tourism there) And after the oil passes the Keys, it will begin working it's way up the east coast of the US, and then across towards England. Once the oil is in the fast moving gulf stream, it will be too dispersed for any type of containment or removal to be effective, and we'll have no choice but to suffer it's toxic effects for decades to come.
Edit: let me add the actual quote from Alan Greenspan:
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
C'mon, that's a pretty wild generalisation! EVERY business is owned and operated by selfish, unethical persons?? Most business people are proud of their products and want to see the industries and enterprises they own or work in,develop and improve! Businesses which don't show sufficient respect to their customers,soon perish. Like every area of human activity, in business, there will be the ethically noble, the exceedingly ignoble, and those in between. It really doesn't matter, because no system will replace the free market economy, (well not in the foreseeable future) essentially, because it exactly mirrors human behaviour while fulfilling mankind's need for creativity and enterprise!
Not at all! This may lead to the extinction of some enterprises and industries, but these will be quickly replaced by exciting new technology, creating vast new profits! The old just die away, (telex-writers are bloody hard to sell these days!)That's the nature of capitalism!
Good grief, if you are correct then the free enterprise system should have disappeared long ago! But, it didn't! In fact despite all the pundits, it's still as vibrant as ever! Your example is simply inaccurate! There was nothing inherently wrong with the concept of strong retirement benefits, paid for by the company. What went wrong, was the US government changed the rules! It was the US government which allowed foreign car makers, from countries whose Governments,(not companies), provided retirement schemes, to enter and compete in the US market.
Again, the US banking system suffered from idealistically driven, ill-considered government policies that produced disastrous banking practises. Executive renumeration packages are the absolute prerogative of the shareholders! It's the shareholders money! If the sharholders think they're not getting good value, they can just vote 'em out! What is so odd about people who every day handle Billions, earning millions? I don't hear the same level of indignation against, Pop Stars, Movie Actors,Rap Gansta's, Sports Stars, etc... earning sums that make business executives look underpaid?
Wrong again! BP only leases the rig. Apparently, Oil rigs come in different models. The overwhelming majority of Oil rigs are fitted with the 'dead mans hand' blow out devise. Cost is not a factor.$500,000, may be a lot of money to you, but to a major oil company, its peanuts! The 'Dead mans hand' type was considered a Superior system! It was this device that failed, (despite having been inspected only !) days earlier.Perhaps the acoustic device will be more accepted after this catastrophe.
Now, are you telling me that if a nationalised Oil company was operating the rig, things would have been different?? If not, then there goes the whole "lets blame BP because capitalism is inherently wrong" Theory!
None of these issues matter, in contrast to the lives lost, and terrible environmental disaster created by our dependence on oil!
marcopolo
Ooh, ooh, ooh! He wants to protect the Wall Street bankers now! I've got to jump back into this one...
Question:
(1) Who lobbied the government for those policies? (As far as I can tell the big change being allowing the market-makers to become market-players. Ooh, now there's a good idea!)
(2) When doing that lobbying who told the government "don't worry we bankers know what we're doing and will be hamstrung if you don't let us do this"? And here's a few million for your re-election campaign...
(3) Who, when given the ability to play with these new found powers drove the entire worldwide economy off the edge of a cliff?
(4) What was their motivation for this?
(hint answers are bankers and profits - no way can you naively say it's solely the governments fault)
Similarly it's incredibly naive to say that "free markets" will favor long term viability over short term profit. Look at CDO's and SUV's. Both were short term approaches designed to bring in as much cash as possible as quickly as possible.
C'mon Marco - if you're going to try and paint us as loony-tunes socialists then you're going to have to have a less naive set of arguments to back up your position. All this tired old "pure economics" is BS. What about "information asymmetry" and all that jazz? Show me a "pure economic" system? One that's not corrupted by greed and short-term thinking... Go on - just one.
I do agree though that compensation is a red-herring. However, what's more at issue is that if Tiger Woods misses a putt it doesn't set off a chain of events that wipes out billions of dollars and millions of jobs causing real world hardship for folks. If that were the case then I'd want Tiger Woods to give Nike their money back. Or at least not to get paid his millions in bonuses. When these bankers cause havoc and cause real hardship it's immoral for them to sit back and rake in millions in personal gain. Sure, go ahead and tell me it's not their fault - if it's not their fault then you're saying they don't have an impact. If they don't have an impact then why are they getting paid the big bucks?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
No, I don't have an issue with your style (or your technique).
I have a problem with the content and it's distortion caused by the deliberate and skilful application of your technique and style!
That is the problem! There are many more like you who seem to be brainwashed by their addiction to the incredible wealth that the self destructive course of our current behaviours is (temporarily) enabling. You are not alone, but you are wrong nevertheless!
But like for all other life forms on earth, unrestricted growth and unrestricted consummation of resources will most likely lead to extinction and to a take-over by a different arm of evolution.
We humans are probably the first emanation of life developing on earth that has reached the capability to understand this.
Some of us, at least!
Those of us with more wealth and power are more likely to fall into this denial trap - the incentives posed by the addiction to the wealth creating (destructive) process are much stronger for them.
Like people with access to high grade heroin: They are much more likely to become opioid dependent than those without access or exposure to it, or only intermittent access to low grade drugs.
But, once exposed and thoroughly dependent/addicted, no amount of intelligence can break the denial process that drives to continue more of the same. The addicts intelligence is actually employed and fully used in order to continue the process of denial!
To be very good at denial, you have to be quite smart!
Then you can employ a wealth of techniques, and style, and quotes from famous people, all in order to keep up the denial and the status quo.
There is very little point in arguing with someone in denial - a waste of time, largely.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Well THANKS for turning this post into pure reteric !! only facts will prove out ! oil wells are supposed to have shut off valves to stop a runaway well. BP lobbied and won an exception from the bush administration for this well. no one was consulted before permission was granted . please stick to facts and state were you got it. LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
Sigh, I am not defending US Bankers, but the root cause of the GFC was created by the US government idealistically creating, no demanding, that banks and similar finance institutions, follow unrealistic, non discriminatory lending practises to the low income sector. It was these loans that created a speculation bubble, while the employment/income ability of the loan recipients to repay was being exported to third world countries. This led to a new phenomenon, the 'broker'! Banks started to speculate with traditionally safe home mortgage collateralized securities, and the speculation bubble was created. Governments revelled in the seemingly rising tide of false economic activity and Wall Street, which is really a sort of giant casino, followed like lemmings!!
But my point is, that the free market economy, doesn't care! Individuals and individual corporation may collapse, but new entities rise, feeding of the carcasses of the inefficient. It can't be corrupted, because it doesn't have a moral aspect. It's like blaming the car for the way the driver behaves.
You are correct when you say governments and business are both responsible for disasters. Both respond to human activity and aspirations. Like humans, economic activity is not perfect! Sadly, attempts to control economic activity, like politics, always end very badly.
It can be argued that despite the catastrophe, the consequences may be beneficial over all as it becomes economically unfeasible to continue high-risk marginal drilling. This will help the capitalisation of new technologies.
Whether, you like it or not, you are a businessman! Do you think that Davids, highly generalised description of you as 'greedily producing low grade, poisons goods' is accurate? No of course not! Nor, in truth did David, he simply alluded to the lemming like behaviour that capital markets are subject to when speculation is the only criteria for success.
The role of governments should be to provide beneficial regulation. It's when the US government stop governing and try to achieve political gain, based on ideology, that business responds by doing what business is good at, exploiting the opportunity created. The result is what the US government created.
Strawhistles, point is valid. The US administration should have never listened to the oil lobby, and insisted on a more effective regulatory system. Especially in marginal environmental areas. That's the job of wise governments. Shutting the door after the horse has bolted, and crying "twasn't me, it was the horse" is a bit hypocritical!
Mik, It's evident we see the future from different perspectives. I am confident that the human species will cope with all contingencies and disasters to emerge better, smarter, and more resourceful. (this maybe no more logical than just cheering for my team!) You have a more pessimistic view, believing our behaviour is causing such destruction as to lead to our extinction. Both viewpoint's have merit.
You don't have to be brainwashed, or in denial, to believe in either. All my life I have been hearing the alarmists, the smug pronouncements of doomsayers,(remember the Club of Rome?) but, like the world, I'm still here and prospering!
Human future presents more and more challenges, you see the solution as downsizing, I want to grow, without the negative impacts? How? Ah...that's the challenge!
You purchased a Vectrix, for good and worthy objectives. Yet in Australia despite the election of a supposedly environmentalist government, the world's only functioning, production, PIEV car, the Blade Electron, manufactured right there in your own country, received no real government assistance and very little support or recognition by the Australian people.In fact were it not for sales to NZ, it would be extinct!
Did you buy one? I
If everyone in Australia drove a Blade, marginal oil drilling would be financially impractical! Less oil spills? now isn't that more practical and benificial than castigating BP?
Hm.. lets see for $20 billion,...Hey that's about 500,000 Blade EV's. Instead of attempting to clean-up one oil spill, let alone saving the lives of those workers.
marcopolo
Sorry marko, this scenario is categorically false. Low income lending was not the issue, not unless these low income borrowers were flipping $500,000 houses. The problem was not low income housing, but lending to middle income borrowers that were not prepared for the loan burden. And, in the case of fraudulent loans, 80% of the fraud was on the side of the lender, not the borrower. Loan agents were simply ignoring loan standards, or making false statements of income or assets in order to reach loan standards. Sorry, you can't blame fraudulent lending on a government rule preventing discrimination. You need to stop listening to Fox Noise, you're just repeating long debunked right-wing myths.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Here we go again...yes, you are still here, so is the world, you seem to be prospering, but "the world" is not prospering! We are in the middle of an unprecedented environmental crisis with mass extinction in most parts of the planet and imminent depletion of our major food sources. The oceans are almost emptied of fish, and the remainders often have unacceptably high heavy metal and other pollutant contents. Fertile topsoil is being destroyed at an ever increasing rate while the genetic variability in the plants we cultivate is being reduced to a very few species, with the "pests" rapidly becoming resistant to the pesticides. The energy input into agricultural production far outweighs the caloric value contained in the food produced. That alone should ring massive alarm-bells!
I understand how you could get the impression that I see downsizing as the solution, but that is not the case. Here, I'm just harping on about how idiotic the blind faith in "growth" is!
I never even heard about it before! But you are correct, it exists: http://bev.com.au/about/specifications/
How long has it been available for? I think their advertising sucks!
I'll have to search for some reports by those Kiwis who were volunteering as paying guinea-pigs...
I've just paid off the AU$16.000.- loan for the rotten Vectrix experience and am not likely to repeat it with a 48.000,- blind-faith experiment!
I'm not blaming BP - I have not even looked into the most superficial details of this latest disaster! I still have one of their solar panels which I bought over a decade ago when they were already using the 'Beyond Petroleum" slogan. It was one of the best panels available at the time, it still works despite rather rough treatment!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
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