Don Harmon,
Feel free to jump in,
Did a real analysis, it was pretty simple.
Lets compare prices on what I use for a power supply vs using LifeBatts
Odyssey Batteries, Chargers, and to keep everything equal, 1 powercheq module
I use odyssey pc625 18 ah batteries. 2 parallel, 2 series, 24 volt system.
Batteries 4 -@ $79.99----$319.96
10% coupon---------------($31.99)
Tax-----------------------$23.76
Chargers--2 -@ $97.00----$194.00
Shipping on chargers-------$6.90
Powercheq-----------------$58.99
Shipping, powercheq, est.--$5.00
Wiring, ever bit of ------$25.00
Total--------------------$601.62
Lifebatts, 24v20ah------$1308.00
Now my odyssey batteries are considered to be about the best lead out there. Odyssey claims a 12 ah capacity at 1 hr. My batteries are a year old. I load tested them a few weeks back, at the 2 hr test, I was able to get about 600 watt hours from them. I think that it would be fair to say that I just might be able to get 500 watt hours from them at the 1/2 rate. Doubt it though. By the book, I should have been able to pull 696 watt hours from my pack at the 2 hr rate.
Lifebatts have a calculated, 24v*20ah, 480 watt hours. At 95% efficiency.
The Lifebatt pack above should be pretty close to what I have now in capacity. I don't see that the Lifebatts are 10 times or 5 times the cost. About 2 times the cost. My odyssey batteries have a 2 year warranty, Don has a 3 year warranty. My batteries have a claim of 400 cycles, Don claims over a 1000 cycles.
Looks to me, Lifebatts cheaper, than lead. In the long run, signicantly. My lead batteries weigh about 53 lbs. Like to shed some of that weight too.
Don's batteries, plug and play. Like that too.
chuck
chuck - I think your math is flawed (sorry!)
You state $601 for AGMs vs. $1308 for LiFeBATTs and conclude that LiFes are only twice as expensive. However, over half of your AGM cost is non-recurring (i.e. you don't replace chargers, powercheq's or wiring when your AGMs die). So, replacement costs would be around $290.
It's unclear to me if the LiFeBATTs have a similar non-recurring cost or not. From what I've seen I'd say not - when bought in hard packs the BMS stuff is integrated and it looks like they're intended to be replaced as a unit.
Thoughts? Clarifications? Aspersions on my ability to replace a light bulb? ;-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Well, now I have 2 sets of data. My own experience with the odyssey batteries. And the unproved but published data from LifeBatt. From my reading, I'm pretty confident that the Lifebatt specs are good.
2 more sets of data from usatracy. Life line battery and Yesa battery. Well, I briefly explored the life line website, I was'nt able to find much info on the battery. Just guessing, a midrange agm, these usually have about a 200 to 250 cycle 80% DOD life. Still can't find any published data on the Yesa battery pack of any kind.
Looked at usatracy's analysis, he proved his own point, did'nt prove anything.
One outlay of cash. First time purchase. These are my parameters. I've have pretty much gotten, the real world results, that Odyssey published on the Odyssey battery. One battery failed awhile back, got a free replacement.
How many cycles have I gone. 13 miles a cycle. 3200 miles. That's about 246 cycles. How many miles will I get? My warranty is good. I'll get all those miles and cycles within my warranty period. 400 cycles. Projects to about 5200 miles, rounded off. Should be able to get that milage within the warranty period. Battery cost per mile, $311.73/5200 miles. About 6 cents a mile.
Now, If I buy a comparable LifeBatt, and I get 13 miles a charge, 1000 cycles, lock stock and barrel, That would be about 13,000 miles. Lets say the batteries are worth, $1000 out of my 1308 dollar outlay, then, my cost per mile, just batteries, about, $1000/13,000. That's about 7.7 cents a mile. I doubt, in 3 years, I could put 13,000 miles on the cheetah. I will fall outside of the warranty period.
Probably, not for certain, should get more mileage, and more cycles, from the Lifebatt pack, than is published, I am just costing the warranty mileage here. Others seem to be having very good results with lithium.
Now reading on endless sphere, I hear dump the lead, dump the lead. If I was riding a bicycle, ya, dump the lead, have fun. Thats what bikes are all about. It would definately be worth it to me, $1308, for a Lifebatt, for a bicycle.
The cheetah, as I ride it, weight is'nt a problem, when I get to about 30 mph, would'nt hurt at all to have a little more weight, 56 lbs of lead, not quite enough, not that I go airborn, more weight is'nt going to hurt me any.
I read on endless sphere that lithium is cheaper in the long run. Might be. I'm fairly confident that the Lifebatts are good, not confident that Yesa's are. I have to put my faith in usatracy, that Yesa's are just as good. Now I'm laughing. Really, got a giggle out that last sentance.
When these Odyssey batteries die, I found a battery, AGM, Deep Cycle, 55 amp hour, made by werker, will cost me $106.19 each, need 2, about $212, 6 month warranty. Probably a perfect fit for the cheetah. Cheap, ya, but you get what you pay for. 38 lbs each.
chuck
[b]AGM BATTERIES[/b]
jdh,
I started the post, had to leave before it was finished, common with me. I don't think my math is wrong, but I'll check it for you.
chuck
[b]AGM BATTERIES[/b]
jdh,
probably answered your question in the last post I posted.
We could sit here and calculate this to death. I was kinda going on initial outlay and warranty period.
I have no idea how long a bms should last. Cheap chargers don't last long.
For my ride, it looks like, lead is still cheaper, especially, after, the initial outlay. Lithium and lead, high quality, about the same price, initial outlay, (under the warranty period).
If I needed range, I'd go lithium, and a motorcyle. Currently, just don't drive enough, to delve into the range of lithium. I've put 3000 miles on my car and 3000 miles on my cheetah in the past year. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy lithium, when I need it.
chuck
[b]AGM BATTERIES[/b]
Ok, Haven't been in here for a while, so just gonna jump in!
I bought one of those 'little' 10 AHr packs from the guy that bought two, and then bought a larger pack. So I guess that you could say I bought a second hand pack! (albeit, unused)
Anyway, the pack has been great! Did a distance trial on my bike, and got the full 10 Ahr/240 wHrs from the pack before the BMS did its duty and shut the pack down!
I e-mailed Sam, because I had a query about the pack. He quickly e-mailed back with the answer, and II thought nothing more about it, until I got a second e-mail from Sam, asking how I was going with pack, and whether it was performing to my expectations!
Alls I can say, is that I am impressed!
Will more than likely look at Yesa for a 36 v pack later down the track for another project,
Cheers!
Rob
usatracey, here's the guy from endless-sphere who has reported on the quality of the YESA packs...the one you refered to as the dopey guy, thanks!! I satrted the thread with an open mind for yesa, optimistic for a lasting affordable battery system. Expecting to series connect two 24v10ah battery packs.
The second pack I bought was 48v10ah, so no bigger, was bought because Sam suggested that I should not connect the 24v batteries in series.
I asked Sam for a refund as I wouldn't be able to sell them for more than what I paid for them, why would anybody pay more if they could buy direct from yesa. No harm trying tho!!
After a top-up charge one cell on the 48v pack appeared to have shorted and not from crossing wires, I hadn't installed the pack on the bike and hadn't used it, Sam expressed I could get a new cell for free but would need to pay postage, I'm just hoping this is not going to be a re-occouring issue! The post is not as bad as LifeBatt expressed, for the replacement cell is $30AUD.
Sam then said it would be fine to connect in series the 24v packs.
In my last post I just warned people to be carefull with their packs and some of them appreciated it as some of the parts a flimsy.
I'm havn't asked for a replacement or even asked for warranty, I have just explained to Sam what has happened and he has suggested what can be done.
Sam has also emailed me asking whether I'm happy with the pack, I expressed my concerns regarding the tabs and the exposed BMS.... good that he asks, future packs may be better protected.
ok time for me to jump in here too - (i'm bigh on endless sphere - who would have thought.)
I got my CA today, and did two cycles on both of the 36v 12ah rated packs. I got 10.2ah on one but only 6.1ah on the other - it looks like i have a dud cell causing the bms to trip due to low voltage (as it is supposted to do. I'm currently in communication with Sam regarding a fix to this, i'm going to properly test the pack tomorrow, and confirm how many cells are low.
In all of this i think everyone is getting a bit hot headed. Don is trying to introduce a new product he feels very strongly about, but others here wish to harras and challenge him in all situations. Maybe you don't want a battery supplier involved on the forums? i hate to say it i've only seen one other supplier on the forums, and he made about 5 posts.
Having someoen to give ideas for and feedback on products that clearly does care is important. Does it justify the extra cost? well thats up to you. You could buy a yesa pack (heck i did) but so far i konw of two packs that have had a bad / not perfect cell in them - if you take the risk its up to you. there are many risk to rewards arguments that could be made here.
Remember that lifebatt is NEW in the market - this means a lot - they won't instantly come out with the perfect product, won't have testing data, won't have customer feedback etc, either way its a personal choice.
There is definatly a market for high quality batteries - Dewalt's A123 cells proved this. I think the main reason that you are all getting so off pot is the extra price on top of the yesa cells. give it time though things do change!
Looking at my own situation:
I'd perfer to get a123s, but charging is a problem (i want a decent turnaround time since my commute is quite long, and i intend on running @ high speed). Lifebatts are just out of my price range, and Yesa cells need to be tested by the end user, and as don said, its probably an idea to get a cell or two extra to avoid having to wait if you do have a dodgy cell.
until there are more players on the market, we'll just have to wait.
(someone hurry up and release a single cell A123 charger that runs at 5a or 10a for parallel charging)