a crude awakening (the oil crisis)

`emini ,
Welcome to our V is for Voltage Community, do you have a link or something to the DVD?

Peace Out,
Gman

Now that we have clarified our beliefs, your invited to join us as we begin building on them to define our Community Mission Statement

I've got links and video clips here:
http://www.7gen.com/blog-entry/peak-oil/crude-awakening-oil-crash/2461

FWIW, the statement that the oil peak has already arrived may not be true. The oil peak phenomenon is real, but the estimation of when the actual peak occurs/ed is a matter of debate. What's important about the peak is not the actual date, but the knowledge of the peak, knowledge of the inevitable decline in oil availability, and the decisions by society on how to deal with that inevitable decline.

- David Herron, http://davidherron.com/

Phil

Do not freak out, if you look back through history their is always some sort of "crisis". If you grew up in the 70's you should know that we are already out of oil and that we have entered a ice age. More recently "killer bees" are rampant, Y2K wiped out all our computers...

One big thing people choose to forget is, man has this great ability to adapt. A good example of this was the Y2K thing. There were apparently a lot of systems out there not set up for the change to 2000, the thing is it was fixed before there was ever a problem. Same thing with peak oil, when the price goes up, new sources are found, sources that were not feasible are now profitable, alternatives developed...

Look back through history, us peasants live better then Kings and Queens ever did and things are getting better faster then we can keep up with:)

Deron.

Phil

Do not freak out, if you look back through history their is always some sort of "crisis". If you grew up in the 70's you should know that we are already out of oil and that we have entered a ice age. More recently "killer bees" are rampant, Y2K wiped out all our computers...

One big thing people choose to forget is, man has this great ability to adapt. A good example of this was the Y2K thing. There were apparently a lot of systems out there not set up for the change to 2000, the thing is it was fixed before there was ever a problem. Same thing with peak oil, when the price goes up, new sources are found, sources that were not feasible are now profitable, alternatives developed...

Look back through history, us peasants live better then Kings and Queens ever did and things are getting better faster then we can keep up with:)

Deron.

Is this a good reason to ignore the best information available? True man is adaptable. Look at what happened with the Cuban oil crisis. I think this is a very good model for what will happen in developed countries like the US once oil is gone. Granted the change will be gradual, and we will hold on to this lifestyle as long as possible. But there's no getting around the fact that oil is running out and we are using it up faster each day. This is way beyond anything most American's have ever experienced. How would you like to be working on a farm in 10 to 20 years?

Often people like to cite past media frenzies when dismissing thinks like oil dependancy and global warming. One of the differences here is adaptations that humans have already made. We now live in more global economy, information is drastically more readily available (albeit lots of misinformation is as well) and we know longer need to rely on mass media to here what the 'scientists' have found. We can now go directly to the research, the primary publications, and in many cases the scientists conducting the research themselves. Research can be more easily collaborated and corraborated, and this can be done with greater speed and accuracy as well.

My point is that the mass media y2k and killer bee scares is not tantamount to the large body of evidence surrounding both global warming and oil dependancy. If your mad about the apparent lies of those aforementioned scares, blame the media, not science.

Andrew

What I'm trying to point out is, things are not static, as the price of oil goes up, new sources are found, alternatives are put in place, new technologies are developed. This is not ignoring the rise in price of oil, it's man's reaction to it. Look at all the talk of the hybrids coming on line. More car manufactures are jumping in, fuel economies of upwards of a 100 MPG are talked about. Ten years from now we will look back and think we were in the stone age of automobiles. New batteries will make a all electric practical. Hybrids will only stop at a gas station to do a cross country trip.

As for lifestyle, other people can hold onto whatever lifestyle they have now, but I'm moving forward with technology. Everything is going to be better, cheaper and more plentiful in the future. For example, my Dad just got a heart valve, it's a routine operation nowadays. When I was growing up as a kid in the 70's, cancer was certain death, they are curing a hell of a lot of it now. San Diego used to have pretty bad air pollution, have not had a single bad air day in fifteen years and on top of that we have way more people living here. There is so much prosperity that a family in poverty owns two cars, three TV's, can afford two hundred dollar tennis shoes and is usually overweight because they can afford to eat fast food every night of the week. I could go on and on, but just take a quick look at history and you will see that even the average person nowadays lives better then the most wealthiest Kings and Queens of old.

And what's wrong with living on a farm?

"Green acres is the place for me. Farm livin' is the life for me. Land spreadin' out so far and wide keep Manhattan just give me that countryside".

Deron.

Vinnie

You have to keep up man, it's not Global Warming anymore, it Climate Change.

See they are unsure if it's going to warm up in your area or cool down. Or for that matter, they are unsure where this warming or cooling will take place, but they can tell you with 99.999 percent accuracy that it is going to warm up somewhere, problem is, it's not going to warm up all over, some areas may get cooler, some areas may get warmer. So in order to not confuse people, they now call it Climate Change.

"We can now tell the people of the world with 99.999 percent accuracy that the Climate will change. We will call it Climate Change."

I just wish they could be so certain about what the weather will be like next week.

Deron.

Climate change is inevitable and is a natural part of the Earth's ever changing environment.

Are the huge burst and immense volume of green house gasses that are spewed out into the atmosphere every year actually contributing to global warming? That is the question. Most people say yes that it can greatly accelerate this process.

As for human safety we generally don't have to be concerned as others have said we are well able to adapt to most climates as they are now and global warming or climate change may be a good thing for some.

As far as wild life who are only able to adapt through generations of natural selection is the accelerated climate change going to impact them? Probably.

From what I understand and have learned is that the main reason they call it "Global Warming" is based on the average temperatures of the Earth's oceans. The real concern here is that the temperature of the Earth's oceans world wide have risen / are rising. Since oceans cover 70% of the Earth's surface i would say this is fairly significant, and the rise in temperature causes larger oceans (expansion of water due to higher temp) and immediate ecological concerns for ocean wild life.

I don't care if it's global warming or climate change - I just want to be able to breathe clean air again, drink watter that doesn't have to be processed, eat foods that aren't contaminated with [enter you favorite chemical here], to visit far away places and know they're still there and not destroyed by oil spills or taken over for nuclear waste sites.

Okay, a couple of points of clarification:

See they are unsure if it's going to warm up in your area or cool down. Or for that matter, they are unsure where this warming or cooling will take place, but they can tell you with 99.999 percent accuracy that it is going to warm up somewhere, problem is, it's not going to warm up all over, some areas may get cooler, some areas may get warmer.

These changes in water distribution and weather/climate patterns are purely a function of increased overall surface temperatures.

Climate change is inevitable and is a natural part of the Earth's ever changing environment.

This is a true statement, however you are not looking at every aspect of the data. Increased overall surface temperatures, increasing at the current rate/slope it is, is NOT inevitable or natural...at least there is no paloeclimatic precedent for it.

From what I understand and have learned is that the main reason they call it "Global Warming" is based on the average temperatures of the Earth's oceans. The real concern here is that the temperature of the Earth's oceans world wide have risen / are rising. Since oceans cover 70% of the Earth's surface i would say this is fairly significant, and the rise in temperature causes larger oceans (expansion of water due to higher temp) and immediate ecological concerns for ocean wild life.

Actually, Global Warming refers to average annual surface temperatures. The oceans are rising not due to expansion of liquid water molecules at higher temperatures...that does not happen. The oceans are rising due to the melting of the ice sheets in our polar regions. This introduces much more liquid water into the active hydrosphere. Because ice sheets contain no salt, it is fresh water that is being introduced into the oceans and since fresh water is less dense than salt water, the fresh water remains on the surface. This completely changes the salinity gradient of our oceans which, in turn, not only affects the ocean life mentioned, but also and more impactfully changes the the patterns of the water cycle and earth's climate patterns (you may recall that weather is driven by ocean currents). So, of course, some places will get cooler and others will get warmer.

Another inherent problem is that as the ice sheets melt, less electromagnetic energy is reflected from the sun and more is absorbed. Ice sheets reflect a large amount of energy from the sun but as they melt, more energy is absorbed by liquid water, making the ocean's surface even hotter.

As we put more and more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, we are "thickening" the blanket that keeps the electromagnetic energy on the surface and not released back into space through photon emission. The more we burn, the less carbon sinks exist. It is a very slippery slope.

Lastly, when you consider the adaptability of humanity remember that we are also drastically increasing our population as we go (5 billion new people in 100 years). Sure we can adapt, but if you are only concerned with our own life, then consider the QUALITY of your life in the future if only the rich can afford to travel, if your food selection was drastically limited and if maintaining your lifestyle was at the cost of many, many more starving poor people around the world.

Lastly, when you consider the adaptability of humanity remember that we are also drastically increasing our population as we go (5 billion new people in 100 years). Sure we can adapt, but if you are only concerned with our own life, then consider the QUALITY of your life in the future if only the rich can afford to travel, if your food selection was drastically limited and if maintaining your lifestyle was at the cost of many, many more starving poor people around the world.

I'm with vinnie on this (it's always good to line yourself with one of the smartest folks in the room ;-)).

I believe that our current general trends are non-sustainable - thus by definition we have to change. I think one of the key "social acceptance" issues of this fact is the belief that a lot of folks have that "it" will happen to someone else first and then somebody else will do something to fix "it". The first part of that thought process is correct for most people - "it" will happen to someone else first. In all likelihood it actually already is affecting subsistence level lifestyles in low lying coastal regions of the third world. Of course there are lots of different definitions of what "it" is and a lot of them are bad!

It's the second part of the sentence that's the problem most folks look to "somebody else to fix it". Furthermore, they want that fix to be at zero cost to themselves. Buy now pay nothing until later! Yeah, right... TANSTAAFL.

This basic predominant human behavior ain't gonna change anytime soon so, while I'm not "freaking out" or expecting the "end of the world" I do expect it to get a LOT worse before it gets any better... I find it difficult to quantify how much worse is "enough" before things start to significantly change. But I do believe we will adapt - ultimately positively. I'm grateful that I live in a State that has plenty of water and doesn't suffer extreme weather crisis.

I think history will likely see this as another slip into the "dark ages" before emerging to a more "enlightened" times. Yeah, that may sound grandiose now but let's discuss things in about 1,000 years time. OK? ;-)

This basic predominant human behavior ain't gonna change anytime soon so, while I'm not "freaking out" or expecting the "end of the world" I do expect it to get a LOT worse before it gets any better... I find it difficult to quantify how much worse is "enough" before things start to significantly change. But I do believe we will adapt - ultimately positively.

Sadly I agree with this. It will get a lot worse before it gets better. I too believe we will adapt. There will be mass extinctions, but probably not including humans. We will certainly face an Earth with a greatly reduced carrying capacity. As the number of people that can be supported in various parts of the globe drops below the number of people already there the adaptation will be rapid and ugly. I'm not optimistic enough to think that at any point we'll look back and say that this time in history was worse. We're still coasting on relatively abundant fossil fuels, metals, food, and water. As these become scarce people will likely become more desperate not more enlightened.

We're still coasting on relatively abundant fossil fuels, metals, food, and water. As these become scarce people will likely become more desperate not more enlightened.

Yeah, but it's not like these resources are distributed equally throughout the world. The African continent is already stricken with rampant disease, warfare, indentury and starvation. The upper/corporate class is pretty good at burying these facts and I think they will continue to do so as problems with oil & coal cunsumption and global warming progress. Consider the fact that a million people in Africa or Asia could EASILY die tomorrow and your and my lives would be 100% completely unaffected...including potentially not even knowing about it. Also consider that a million people is mearly a blip on the world population totals now.

Dave, good point about carrying capacities. If transportation costs become too expensive for food and other resources, regional carrying capacities for humans could drop drastically in many areas.

Actually, Global Warming refers to average annual surface temperatures. The oceans are rising not due to expansion of liquid water molecules at higher temperatures...that does not happen. The oceans are rising due to the melting of the ice sheets in our polar regions. This introduces much more liquid water into the active hydrosphere. Because ice sheets contain no salt, it is fresh water that is being introduced into the oceans and since fresh water is less dense than salt water, the fresh water remains on the surface. This completely changes the salinity gradient of our oceans which, in turn, not only affects the ocean life mentioned, but also and more impactfully changes the the patterns of the water cycle and earth's climate patterns (you may recall that weather is driven by ocean currents). So, of course, some places will get cooler and others will get warmer.

ACTUALLY, The great Ocean of the Earth DOES indeed expand when the overall temperature rises. Its a large ocean and water expands as it warms up to a certain point, just as cold water is more dense then warmer water (aside from ice). This large ocean only expands more as the temperature goes up, and in an ocean the covers a planet this small expansion due to a rising of temperature does play a role in sinking islands perhaps.

Also, i agree that with the melting in certain polar regions does come with a rise in the ocean waters as well, BUT the Arctic polar region to the North will have a FAR less impact and maybe no impact on the rise in the ocean at all because it most of this ice is ALREADY sitting in the ocean. Like an icecube floating in a cup of water, If this icecube melts the water level is the exact same in the cup because the ice is already displacing the water that it sits in. Although land masses covered in melting ice sheets like Greenland and Antarctica will definetely make the oceans rise.

Key points:
-Ocean won't rise much from Arctic ice already sitting in the ocean.
-Water expands as its temperature rises.

Key points:
-Ocean won't rise much from Arctic ice already sitting in the ocean.
-Water expands as its temperature rises.

As for the expansion of water with temperature increase, I do see that I typed "this does not happen" and thus implied that cold water and hot water of the same volume have the same density, which of course is not true. To clarify, oceans do not heat and cool uniformly with regard to depth or geographic location. The rise in surface temperature alone is not the major factor in rising sea levels.

Why is Arctic ice a key point? There is far more water frozen in the Antarctic and Greenland regions than the Arctic circle...

Again, as the ice sheets around the world melt due to increased surface temperatures, sea levels rise. However, a much scarier result in my opinion are the changes in the salinity gradient of the oceans as more and more fresh water is introduced into the earth's oceans as the ice sheets melt. The gradient changes not only negatively affect sea life but drastically change ocean currents, which in turn have huge impacts on earth's weather and climate patterns.

So, I don't think I am refuting any of your statements...are we agreeing on the various aspects and outcomes of this chain of events and simply highlighting different components?

Right, we are all going to die.

Right, we are all going to die.

Hmm. So we probably can't "save the world", and we are all going to die. What can we do now?

I'm thinking lets cut to the chase and just go with cryonics. I'll be happy waiting it out while you all deal with it. Damn, just checked and its pretty cheap. Only $28,000 by the Cyronics Institute.

LOL! $28'000 is just to freeze your head. If you want to save your Mojo you'll have to pay a lot more. :)

And the way things are going now, I really don't think there will be anyone here in the near future to bring you back.:o

No, CI doesn't offer that option, so its $28k for the whole deal mojo and all. Security might be an issue though---lest you thaw out and find your mojo missing!

Good point about humans becoming extinct. But, we could always re-evolve from chimpanzees. Only takes a few hundred thousand years give or take.

Key points:
-Ocean won't rise much from Arctic ice already sitting in the ocean.
-Water expands as its temperature rises.

As for the expansion of water with temperature increase, I do see that I typed "this does not happen" and thus implied that cold water and hot water of the same volume have the same density, which of course is not true. To clarify, oceans do not heat and cool uniformly with regard to depth or geographic location. The rise in surface temperature alone is not the major factor in rising sea levels.

Why is Arctic ice a key point? There is far more water frozen in the Antarctic and Greenland regions than the Arctic circle...

We agree, but temperature does create what is called thermal expansion of the ocean coupled with of course the melting of ice raises the sea level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

Not only is the ice that melts into the ocean responsible, but the temperature of the ocean causes it to expand which does raise the level of the water.

As for water salinity, i have not researched into this much at all but i do have some knowledge about ocean currents. Upwelling which can result in deep, nutrient rich water coming up from the bottom of the ocean to the top occurs in a few spots on the earth, this helps circulate almost every molecule of water all over the earth along with all of the ocean currents. So although this extra melting fresh water is going to dilute some of the oceans salty content, all of the oceans water even the deep, nutrient rich water eventually makes its way all around the earth through underwater currents and upwelling. The surface water may generally be slightly less salty. Although in some parts of the ocean the top layer of the ocean has a higher salinity then lower parts, such as in the south atlantic which is more salty on the surface and decreases within the first 500 feet.
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/Water/salinity_depth.html

Ocean salinity at the moment is 35ppt's which is about 35 / 1000 and 3.5%. This isn't significantly high in terms of the amount of salt actually in the ocean but it is high in terms of how much water there is covering the planet that contains 3.5%. This % of salt to water is not going to change to dramatically when the land bound ice sheets melt into the ocean. Again i'm not sure how much this % will change of salt content but even the amount of fresh water that enters the ocean may not be high enough percentage to change the large volume of relatively low 3.5% salinity salt ocean that we already have.

Although the depth of the ocean will more likely play a more immediate impact in certain ecosystems around the world. Much of the Great Barrier Reef is an example of life that could likely die from a sea levels rising. The reef is sustained by the coral which is sustained by a special and somewhat symbiotic relationship it has with Zooxanthellae which is a plant that gets its energy from the sun and in turn feeds the coral which is the bases for all life in the Great barrier reef. As ocean levels rise this Coral may not get the energy it needs from the Zooxanthellae because of the decrease in light energy that it receives, which in turn causes it to eventually bleach out and die.

So although we may agree on a few things, the problems i think are different.
Key points:
-Depth of ocean is relative to the overall temperature of the ocean through thermal expansion, if the overall temperature of the ocean goes up say 2 degrees around the world then this does have an impact on the sea level.
-Depth of the ocean plays a major part in the amount of light underwater plants recieve, which is basis of most life in the oceans.
-How much will the % of salt content change in the ocean even after the relatively small amount of ice bound fresh water reaches the ocean to the only 3.5% salinity of the ocean?
-Upwelling occurs at certain spots in the ocean which is key to mixing up the deep nutrient rich salty waters with the surface of the ocean thus helping to circulate all of the ocean water all over the world.

Okay now I had it...

here's one poster who does not care because we're all gonna die anyhow...
there's one that tries to rename global warming into climate change...
there's one who tries to define how exactly the oceans are going to warm and cool...
there's one denier who still believes mankind did not do anything (all natural cycle) and obviously does not need to do anything anyhow....

None of us can imagine how Global Climate Destabilization, as I would prefer to call this whole thing, is going to play itself out. Our phantasy and all science fiction we ever saw in our lives will not suffice to prepare us for that. Problem is, unlike some scary Sci Fi movie, we're going to be IN THE MOVIE, having to feel and experience every last bit of the unthinkable ( but not unavoidable!!!)

My suggestion is, STOP TALKING and START DOING SOMETHING!

According to the IPCC's new report, we are in a decisive phase of 2-3 years (before 2010)

I tour constantly thru the entire US - THIS COUNTRY IS NOT EVEN within 3-4 decades of noticable change potential.
Everyone's out there doing business as usual.

That luxury we can no longer afford.

For Christ's sake, if there was breaking news about, e.g., Ebola having been registered at the LA harbor we would see a couple of thousand people scrambling for action to get prepared in whatever way they can.

What threatens us here is FAR greater a threat than Ebola. And NOTHING is happening!

Please please please WAKE UP. And then let's wake all the others up!!

My suggestion is, STOP TALKING and START DOING SOMETHING!

I drive electric, if i'm not driving electric i drive my 55+mpg motorcycle. As this was originally on the oil crisis. Having an extremely high average MPG i think is doing at least SOMETHING. I think people on this forum for the most part DO something. Driving full electric vehicles is DOING something that most people don't.

A lot of people here ARE doing something, its the people that don't know about us or aren't educated on electric power that need to step up.

I agree with ah700 about "doing something". I really like the saying 'Think Globally, Act Locally'. I drive electric for a daily commute, I have solar panels on my home, my house is 'built green', I take fabric bags to the store, I bring my own cup to the coffee shop, I replace bulbs with CFs when they burn out, I advocate in my neighborhood, etc. I'm not perfect, but I do what I can.

With that having been said, I think this discusion is great. ah700 and I are challenging each other in an intellectual way to refine our own and perhaps other readers' understandings of the potential environmental causal chains that result from combusting fossil fuels on an increasingly higher level. Thoroughly understanding the problem can be the first step in solving it.

Granted, just spouting stuff off and citing wikipedia (no offense, ah700) is not the ideal Newtonian method of furthering one's understanding of scientific phenomena but I personally have been inspired to re-research the data behind the role thermal expansion may have on sea level rising and I hope that ah700 continues his investigations into the variations in ocean salinity as it pertains to depth (check out deep ocean currents and how they vary from surface currents...oceans don't have uniform salinity with respect to depth). To cite my sources, I am speaking from some work I have done with NOAA in regards to ice sheet melts and the subsequent effects on ocean salinity gradients. But, of course, the scope of our project was limited.

As for cryonics, you could add some flair to the whole thing: there is a festival in a nearby town to mine that is called something like "Frozen Dead Guy Days". Perhaps you will want to take a similar approach? ;)

My suggestion is, STOP TALKING and START DOING SOMETHING!

This is largely preaching to the choir here. The challenge is proselytization. And I'm not even talking about convincing people who don't believe global warming is real. I'm talking about the folks who do believe in it, but don't consider their weekly trips to the ski condo as part of the problem. Six months ago I watched Gore's film with a small gathering in a friend's basement. Almost everyone drove there. These are the sort of people who can probably be persuaded to green up a bit.

The other thing we can do is more of what we do. Buy the electric vehicles, shop the farmer's markets, get used products when possible, ride the buses, vacation locally, and so forth. As we use more of these products and services they will get better and more available to our fellow citizens who are slower on the uptake. That and nagging. Nagging almost never works, but it certainly doesn't stop me from trying. :-)

--

In my experience very few people have yet to accept the evidence of global warming. Mostly what we get around here are trolls, but not the dimwitted mythical kind. We have the Usenet kind of troll where they'll say something that goes deliberately against the grain to provoke a reaction. By getting upset you feed the troll. I recommend not responding to them.

My suggestion is, STOP TALKING and START DOING SOMETHING!

Very very good point. We can change our destiny now. There is so much freedom and power in our hands. If we could only see that...

In my experience very few people have yet to accept the evidence of global warming. Mostly what we get around here are trolls, but not the dimwitted mythical kind. We have the Usenet kind of troll where they'll say something that goes deliberately against the grain to provoke a reaction. By getting upset you feed the troll. I recommend not responding to them.

Got it: Don't feed the trolls...don't feed the trolls...

There is so much freedom and power in our hands.

I agree 100%

I personally still find lots of value in discussing our personal understandings of what's actually happening to our world. I think one of the greatest social 'sins' I can commit is to remain uneducated when the opportunities to learn arise. By collaborating, challenging each other, and generating new questions we create a need for new information on a personal level. In this thread I found several areas of focus I wanted to research (using scientific resources) and consider more thoroughly.

I don't wish to debate whether global warming is happening or any other purely political, religious or otherwise non-scientifically driven aforementioned trolls want to bring up. Instead, I'd like to continue threads like parts of this one where we bring what we know to the table and collaborate...and also inject bits of humor while at it (e.g. Arcticfox freezing himself as a form of escapism).

Is this possible to do or are our discusions destined to be drawn down by trolls and other Tangential Disruptors (sic: I just coined this term to describe an evil He-Man like character that lives in the internet...think it will catch on)?

That's not very nice, DaveW. I'm a mythical Troll and I'm not dimwitted. >:(

*Vinnie: it's not escapism, just a way for me to get away from it all. ;)

I use my own shopping bags and use my 5 year old 24volt electric scooter to go to the store, every light I own is fluorescent (I've had them for 7 years and take them with me when I move), I changed jobs this year - I now drive 20 miles/week instead of 500, all my window and electrical outlets are double insulated, thermostat is at 70°F (my 19" computer monitor keeps me warm), I converted my mini MagLight to use LEDs so I only buy batteries for that about once a year (I use it often), the lights on my bicycle are LED, bla bla blah.

But, because of financial constraints, I am still part of the problem; my car with a V6 only gets about 18MPG and smokes when it's at running temperature (needs to be rebuilt). I do not like planes or GreyHound so when I need to go somewhere I drive myself - which, by the way, when I do that I fill up the car and my three 5-gallon fuel containers with E-85 before I go. I own stock in an electric power company in PA which still has coal-fired generating plants.

So I'm not perfect, but I still do what I can. And I don't expect others to follow my example - I've given up on that dream.

Vinnie, i do like the discussions going on here. Although i did cite and had to throw in a Wiki cite, while it may not be the most reliable of information, it is what other poeple are saying about the subject. The scope of my knowledge stems mainly from personal research that i did for Ecology classes in college. Although i do watch my fair share of national geographic but that is media fueled.

A good short documentary i watched was called "Planet in Peril", with Anderson Coopter, Jeff Corwin, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta. They actually talk about Thermal Expansion as a reason why certain islands are now, on this very day, being subject to flooding of ocean water. They also talk about Coral Reef ecosystems and the danger that is being posed with them. China was a main topic for them and the polution that China is creating through the coal powerplants now passing the U.S. in overall production of greenhouse gasses. Also the polution in China was a major topic which was no news to me.

As far as the oil crisis being the problem and energy demands being a problem, I think we are a long way off from running clean out of fossil fuels as far as our life times go. i think we need to look through a larger scope here as well and realize that pollution and damage to different ecosystems will eventually reach us humans, if not most other organisms within the effected ecosystems. A lot of people flat out think climate change has nothing to do with Humans, i find this hard to believe.

GW is chump change.

Wait till we get hit with a asteroid, or when the planets poles switch and leave us with no magnetic field to protect us from cosmic rays. Then there is YellowStone just waiting to go off like how the 2,667 foot island of Krakatoa was blown away and Mt. Saint Helens blew up, but YellowStone will take half of North America with it. Then there is the danger from outside our Solar system "Galactic Cosmic Ray Volleys: A Coming Global Disaster"

On November 4th 2003 was the most powerful Solar flare on record, we were lucky as most of the debris from the explosion did not hit the Earth! A big enough Solar flare directed at the Earth could destroy all life!

Then we have those dam aliens living among us just waiting for the right moment.

GW is just a walk in the park.

Deron.