Please don't start deleting threads again...

I'm inclined to disagree.

No board I know of would allow posters of such rudeness and arrogance to stay on board. The reputation of the US around the world is bad as it is without people from all over the world visiting this site and encountering his ugly-American attitude. Good riddance.

Usatracy has not been banned. If you want to know more you'll have to talk to him.

*nevermind. who cares*

*nevermind. who cares*

I do.

I'll miss post like this one:

Submitted by usatracy on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 05:47.

- if fixing stuff yourself voids the warranty, why ask for help by the online community?

Because just FIXING stuff does not void the warranty, depends on what you are doing, the terms of the warranty, and federal and state laws.

Adding a 6'th battery to a 60 volt bike, probably will void the warranty, as will jumping curbs and posting it on youtube.

For instance, the manufacturer cant require you to use FORD motor oil, parts or batteries or your warranty is void, that is illegal and you are protected under Federal law, as is "only Ford dealer may make repairs during the warranty period", that also is against the federal law.

- where is the thin line that separates legitimate reporting of problems from slander/libel?

Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement.

Since V is a website, slander is not relevant.

If the statement written or is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience.

So, it must be an untruthful statement, further, there must be proof of malicious intent and not just untruthful, in other words, the party making the statement must be PROVEN to have known, or to have reasonably expected to have known, that the statement was untruthful WHEN THEY POSTED IT, posting something like "I heard party A was going to use controllers from Taiwan, but when they actually delivered the bikes, they were controllers from Brazil, does anyone know where the controllers came from and are they from Taiwan?"

Assuming in this case the controllers were supposed to come from and did in fact come from Taiwan, then saying you heard they might not have and merely asking for confirmation is not libel.

If, on ther other hand, a pattern of these INNOCENT queries can be established, then that MIGHT be basis for an action if the party claiming damages can convince the jurist it was of a malicious intent, very hard to prove.

On the other hand "I heard that the controllers they were going to use really sucked so at the last minute they got some off the shelf and they weren't even tested at all and now the bikes are being delivered with really crappy untested controllers from Singapore made by illiterate people and just thrown together" COULD be libel IF it is not true, you do not have to prove it is true, THEY have to prove it is untrue, in this case, you better have some evidence to support your detailed assertions about where they came from and how you know they were made by unskilled persons.

Are there potentially libelous things posted on V, probably, but posting libel is not illegal, it is civil and it is up to the injured party to take action if they so choose, and that action is limited under law to damages from the poster of the libel and not V, UNLESS the principals of V consorted to propogate the libel (by leaving it posted after it is brought to their attention along with supporting facts that it may be libelous) and knew, or reasonably should have known, it was libelous.

Likewise, posting, "I got my bike, it really sucks, it is the worst excuse for a bike I have ever ridden" is not libel, but continuing with, "I cant believe that company A built this, they were supposed to know what they were doing, they could not build a bike that works ever and anyone that buys one will get something that does not work at all, in my opinion"

Was not potentially libelous until you got to the part where you state each purchase will result in a non-functioning item, you cant know that, it is reasonable to expect that you knew, or should have known it was not true because you were forecasting, because you could not know. But, perhaps you do know because you were a tester and none worked and you documented it, or, are a gambler and by the time it goes to court it will have been proven that in fact none of them did work and you will countersue and get money (well, a judgement anyway)

Libel is a very hard thing to prove, thats why you dont see a lot of libel suits, at least successful ones, many times they are settled out of court with mere retractions and removal of materials, and maybe paying other parties legal fees.

I once was involved in something someone posted in their club newsletter about something I was doing and made a lot of inferences and untruths about the activity and me, instead of suing, I responded, much like I do here on V, in an 18 page double sided mailing direct mailed to 800 people at my personal expense.

They sued me (aka fell into a trap layed just for them), and lost, and had to pay my legal fees and the cost of the mailing to defend my character. So you have to be careful if you are going to sue for libel and know what you are doing and more importantly, what the other person may have to sunstantiate their statements, they may be right and that will REALLY hurt your business when it comes out.

Just something for the litigious to chew on.,

- if a company suffered as a result of poor reviews, based on poor product performance, would the competition then make good use of the lessons learned and advance the overall industry, or would the industry as a whole suffer a setback, delaying environmental benefits that could otherwise have been achieved?

The evidence that I have is that the competition is doing just that and is taking these setbacks, as well as customer reviews, statements, rantings and ravings here on V, and incorporating fixes for these shortcomings into the new model designs.

If there is money to be made and customers to buy the products, statements about how poor the previous attempts were will not stop or stall the product coming to the market, otherwise, there would be almost no new products on the market. That does not mean the COMPANY of people building the item can survive, they may go away or have to reform.

- under which circumstances is a consumer entitled to break parts of warranty conditions without voiding the warranty?

Well, you are never entitled to break the warranty agreement, and expect to have a warranty.

For example, your car warranty is going to prohibit racing, if you lose your job, some guy pulls up and says, I'll race you for 10,000, you do and win and he pays, then the engine starts smoking, so you take it in for warranty and the black box shows 10 minutes at 120 mph, and you say, yeah, but I had a mortgage to pay and kids to feed, oh well, you broke the warranty.

Or, you buy a bike that has the throttle limited to 3.75 volts, and 30 mph, you know from other postings on V that it will do 40 if you remove a resistor in the throttle that is providing the limitation, others have done it and gone 34,000 miles with no problem, you do it, and 400 miles later, your motor fries, you were the lucky guy with a defective solder point. You take it in for warranty, they replace the motor, then while testing it find it is going 40 mph and think the throttle is bad, then find the limiter has been removed and they bill you for the motor and labor.

You will probably have to pay.

However, I think what you are REALLY asking, is what if anything is the end user owner of an item allowed to do to an item and not break the warranty, which I think you asked above.

Well, it goes back to what did you agree to do, and not do, according to the terms of the warranty agreement ? and what federal and state laws apply ?

The first and best way to address this, is ASK the manufacturer, and if you think they are not right, go somewhere, like V,and post it.

For example, say you do not really like the batteries in your new bike, you want to put SP27-12 GreenSavers in it, and you want to do the work, you email the manufacturer and they say if you do it will void the warranty, so you post here and we all look into it. No reason to go and look at every POSSIBLE issue that noone has a question about, it is a waste of time.

So if someone wants to add BattEQ, PakTrak, Cycle Analyst or bank charging for example, and aren't sure if it will void the warranty, FIRST, ASK the manufacturer, then, if they have a list of conditions, say it will void the warranty outright etc, post it here, because if they make ridiculous warranty conditions, like X-TREME did with battery replacement (SUE ME X-TREME) then WE need to know, as do POTENTIAL NEW customers who then may not buy their product forcing them to rethink their stance on the strict intepretation of their warranty terms.

One primary reason for the Federal law that ALLOWS you to add these things and to use other brands of oil and to take the car somewhere other than the dealer for service is that if they are proven NOT to have a detrimental effect on the warranty item, then restricting their sale or purchase and use via a restrictive warranty is to interfere with interstate commerce, meaning, the bike manufacturer will, by virtue of his interpretation of his restrictive warranty, be denying interstate commerce to the makers of these add-ons.

That was the primary basis for the Federal law when it was created.

We have even taken trucks to non-dealers, when the dealer proved they could not fix the problem, paid for the repairs and then had the dealer submit the repair costs to the manufacturer for reimbursement via warranty claim. Under the law, they had to pay it.

Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

Florida extends act to leased vehicles

Texas Lemonade

Ohio Lemon Test

Lemon Law Summary by State

Those thinking of BUILDING EVT's instead of IMPORTING them from a foriegn supplier should note that it is the MANUFACTURER and not the IMPORTER/DEALER that is held financially liable under lemon laws. Likewise, if you are a consumer, you are much more likely to reach a settlement if the manufacturer is domestic based, even if he went overseas to build and then returned, than if the manufacturer has no domestic base of operation or offices in the USA.

If you THINK your vehicle was made overseas BY a domestic company that would have to be proven by the NAME of the company on the MSO, if the domestic manufacturer-seller CLAIMS to have built it overseas, when in fact it was subcontracted out to a foriegn company whose name appears on the MSO, you will have a hard time going after the domestic that represented to be the manufacturer prior to sale, BUT, you may then instead have a case for fraud, if that type of situation were to ever arise in your dealings.
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Disclaimer: Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it Smiling

Mr. Mik

Usatracy has not been banned. If you want to know more you'll have to talk to him.

How? He "Does not accept private messages".

Mr. Mik

Well, if someone knows Usatracy and can get in touch with him, ask him to join a thread where this can all be sorted out and may cool heads prevail. We don't want to lose valuable members if possible.

I support the boards efforts to enforce the TOS for usatracy, myself, or anyone else. It seems well written and reasonable. I would request however that when a post violates the TOS, that the member in violation be notified that the post was removed, and given a reference to TOS provision that was violated. I had a post removed with no notification to me. Not a big deal or an important post, and perhaps it was not removed intentionally. But if it was, I'd like to know why. Since there was no notification, I have to assume it was inadvertant; posts by other members in the same thread were also missing when I last checked.

I just checked and my post is now there again. So a temporary technical issue apparently.

Ok, I know this is a dumb question, so please excuss me for I am fairly new at this forum. What does TOS stand for and where can I find it?

Found it!
http://visforvoltage.org/page/251-policies

I think his attitude needs adjustment, or someone needs to kick him. His posts always seem to have a condescending tone to them - maybe his wife will put up with that stuff, but I've grown tired of it. And now he's back to this game of multiple login IDs and wizardly deceptions (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)? Banned? Good. Next time try not to act like an jerk towards others, even if you think you're the answer man.

Awe, is someone getting forwarded to a TROLL page? :( Try browsing with Firefox instead of your outdated IE.

So what's up with all this? Am I understanding that USATracy has been banned? And for what? Just curious. And I also got the impression that someone was saying that he was the former "Gman." Is that correct? Also, was someone implying in another thread that he is the new dealer on here named "NOVA?" Just wondering about these things...

Regardless...three observations...(1)that he certainly has a wealth of knowledge and I've appreciated his answers and info on this and that. (2)However...I think alot of what he says is often skipped over by people because of the "tone" and manner in which he expresses himself. But often people don't realize that...especially some otherwise very smart people. (3)Finally, truly smart people know they could be wrong! Always consider that you could be wrong. Regardless of how intelligent, knowledgeable, etc. there are times when you will be absolutely wrong even though you thought you were absolutely right!

Gushar :-)

Thanks for posting the Terms of Service. It's a lot of words and it could be simpler, but most of the problems we have are in the following areas:

Don't abuse other members.
Use language, photos, videos appropriate for a family audience.
Don't break the law: this includes copyright law.
Don't post commercial content in the non-commercial areas of the forums.

When someone violates the TOS the moderators either fix it and tell the member about it or ask them to fix it. The vast majority of the time the exchange is polite and it stops there. If someone continually violates the TOS or does so in a particularly flagrant way they will get a warning. A warning is not issued unless the majority of the moderators agree. A second warning and a one-week suspension will happen if the behavior continues. A ban follows the third warning. It is really hard to get banned around here. It takes weeks of diligent effort. I can only remember three people who have even been warned over the hundreds of members and thousands of posts.

It is also important to know that all direct communication between the moderators and the members is private. We won't comment on discussions between us and the members. This is to protect the member's privacy. What members choose to make public is their business. I never send an email that I wouldn't mind my mother reading. (Actually that wouldn't be a bad suggestion to include in the TOS.)

Our purpose here is to exchange information on EVs. We can't do this if the moderators start sanctioning people at the drop of a hat. On the other hand we will also fail if the content becomes so obnoxious that people don't want to read it. Trying to find the balance between the two is what the TOS is all about.

I'm a recent new member to V, and would be angry if usatracy was banned or disappointed if he was run out of town.

Sure he's a bit gruff with his answers, but we're all grown ups here and should be able to handle a little ribbing. More importantly he has consistently provided testing and evidence to back up his ideas and to prove/disprove others theories. If someone is a valuable contributor to a group, which he is, you don't kick them out or make them want to leave because they aren't a good little boy.

Along with several others, a good number of his posts have helped me a great deal with dealing my Z and provided valuable counterpoints that help make an informed decision. It's obvious he puts a lot of effort in dealing with and drafting responses - and it is GREATLY appreciated. Hopefully usatracy continues to participate, or this forum will be for the worse.

usatracy, if you leave the forum please let us know so we can continue to benefit from your contributions wherever you land.

Yea, usatracy has been a big help to me, as well as all of you other seasoned and knowledgeable people in this forum. I did not realize when I bought my Z-20a that I was going to have to QA the scooter also. So far I have been fortunate with my scooter thanks to usatracy and others help. Being on the Bleeding Edge….I mean Leading Edge of technology sometimes gets very stressful and aggravating. I do not know what was said on this forum or who was offended, but I hope no one would decide to stop helping us new guys.

I hope nobody takes what I say or suggest personally and I will do the same from others. On that note…I am trying to prove to all you XM2000 owners (especially usatracy) that the Z-20 is a much better product (more reliable, faster, better range, etc.).

Unfortunately, I might need some help to do this. Like what wires to cut, batteries to try or tires, controller, motor to buy? Any suggestions?