XM3000 Owners. Does the bike live up to the specs?

My XM3000 will soon pass 200KM, and here is what I've found so far:
- Service has been pretty good. I got a new charger a few days after the original died. They shipped out new body panels to replace those damaged by shipping (these were a challenge to get on, by the way). They sent a new glovebox door, but used the wrong shipping box, so I had to pay $5 to the postal service. Generally, they take a few days to respond to tickets, but they do respond.
- I installed a BattEQ as quickly as I could, to try to get some longevity out of the batteries.
- Range has been so-so for me. I have a 10 mile commute (5 miles each way), with speeds ranging up to 45 mph. I keep the range switched to high current mode, because I like the acceleration, and I have a final 1-mile, 15-18% grade, climb at the end of the afternoon commute. The bike slows to 5-7 mph on the climb, and the battery meter goes into the top of the yellow range, but then snaps back to green when the climb ends. Anyways, I'm afraid to extend my route during the day (e.g., running errands) for fear that I'll stop on the climb. Hopefully, I'll be able to recharge at work, but they won't let me yet.
- Durability has been good so far. I've (accidently) gone through a few pot-holes, but the bike absorbs the shock nicely. No loose screws, etc., yet.
- Handling has been a pleasant surprise for me. The low center of gravity allows me to lean the bike into turns quite nicely. The brakes work well, and give me sufficient confidence to zoom down hills pretty fast.
- Its really been great to be able to keep up with traffic on my commute. I can move into left turn lanes with much more confidence than when I was commuting by bicycle.

Joe

"I have a final 1-mile, 15-18% grade, climb at the end of the afternoon commute. The bike slows to 5-7 mph on the climb"

5 to 7 MPH? I realize the batteries may be down a bit after your 8-10 mile ride, but you have got to be kidding me. I am amazed what people will put up with to be riding an e-scoot at this time. If there isn't anything wrong with your bike and that is the extent of the hill climbing ability of these $2500 scooters, I'd say it limits their usefulness to the flat lands only and should be advertised as such.

The bike does fine on less extreme hills (say, <10% grade), but I would like it to perform better on steeper hills. I'm willing to put up with some slowdown on hills, until I can get some lighter li-ion batteries. 100 lbs less weight should make it much more lively on the hills.

In terms of advertising, I've been around the block enough times to know not to completely believe all claims. While it may be possible to do a 25% grade with a 177-lb person, I never saw any claim related to speed. I realized in advance that there would be some slowdown on steep grades. If you need full speed on all grades, I'm not sure the E-bikes are quite ready yet.

Does the bike live up to the specs?

The bike does live up to the specs, alas (as with most advertising claims) you need to read the fine print. The specs are very often not very realistic conditions (even gas mileage figures which are well regulated often don't reflect what folks get from their vehicles).

After 427 km with real world usage for me has me keeping up with traffic through town with lots of stop and go and speeds up to 35 to 40mph. Out of town my speed drops to 32 or so on the hills I ride (or up to 50 woo hoo! coming the other way). I commute 12 miles, charge at work and then ride home and charge. I quote the real world range as 20 miles. I had no shipping damage, but I have had a sticky front brake switch (which caused intermittent power loss) and a loose fuse on the DC-DC converter (which caused intermittent loss of electrics). Both problems manifested themselves at around 150km's or so - they are both "zero cost" fixes - but annoying never the less!

I have a final 1-mile, 15-18% grade, climb at the end of the afternoon commute. The bike slows to 5-7 mph on the climb

Hi Joe, Sorry the bike doesn't have quite enough power for that climb. It is pretty long and steep. A couple of questions: (1) if you get a chance can you do the climb with fresh batteries? I'd be interested to see how much of a difference that makes, (2) I don't suppose you know anyone with a 50cc moped that could be persuaded to ride up that hill? In terms of performance I've always compared the XM-2000 and XM-3000 to a 50cc bike and it would be interesting to see how well the bike compares. BTW, if you're interested you could either try modifying your controller to increase the current limit, or replace the controller with a Kelly Controller with a higher limit. Both solutions would void your warranty but might give you a better riding experience - at the expense of a shorter range and a higher strain on components. Personally, I think such an upgrade might be worth your while.

John--I'll be interested in modifying the controller after the warranty period is up..thanks for the suggestion...

Also, I'll try the same hill with fresh batteries next chance I get...

I do have to say that the bike DOES more than live up to the expectations I had for a $2k vehicle! (not to mention the EV grin!)

I can do a ~10% climb and not go below 40mph on fresh batteries. Can't wait to see people start modifying their controllers, I know the controller runs when the battery string reads 70V.

I want to put a windmill on my EV so I will never have to charge the batteries. The windmill can charge the batteries while I drive on the highway. Since it is so efficient, I dont have to have the windmill up while I am parked.

It's easier to put big wheels on the back and small wheels on the front.
That way you're always driving downhill.

Reply from "Peter VanDerWal" posted on Yahoo's EV group. Gave me a chuckle.

"I can do a ~10% climb and not go below 40mph on fresh batteries"

That actually sounds pretty good if it can do that, but is it really 40 MPH or an Xtreme optimistic speedo reading 40 mph when actual speed is something like 28 MPH? I was given a gradiometer to mount on the handlebars of my hopped up Lashout small scooter. Fancy name, but it basically is a calibrated bubble level that reads up and down + & - 20 degrees grade. I was surprised how steep some of the hills where around here-a few pinned the gauge at over 20%. My 85 pound LIFEPO4 powered Lashout with upgraded 900 watt brushless motor will climb a 14%-15% grade at close to 20 MPH, but slows down to 12 -14 MPH as you approach 20% grade. I'd need more amps out of the controller to climb faster, but I am limited to the 40 amps continuous BMS on my battery. What really is hard is to attack a steep grade from a standstill.

I asked over at the Vectix board, and it looks like if someone wants to spend 4X what the Xtreme costs, you can go up steep hills fast on an E-motorcycle.

I hope they get those $2000-$2500 bikes sorted out a bit more, because one day I may have to get one

That motor controller combination will run faster, have more range, pull hills better, and have cooler controller and motor temps, with this tire, and thats a proven tested fact, enjoy.

http://www.powersportsuperstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TR32-1650&click=8323

"I can do a ~10% climb and not go below 40mph on fresh batteries"

That actually sounds pretty good if it can do that, but is it really 40 MPH or an Xtreme optimistic speedo reading 40 mph when actual speed is something like 28 MPH?

The speedo on these bikes reads over by 10% so at 40mph the speed is more like 36mph. Why are you so negative about these bikes? As I mentioned above when replying to Joe that these 3000 watt bikes are more like a 50cc class of gas scooter than anything else. Do you have any experience to suggest a 50cc motor scooter would climb that grade for that distance at any faster speed?

On several threads your responses always seem negative towards this class of bike. I'm curious as to why? Have you any direct experience with these bikes, or are you just picking up on the "negative vibes" that have surrounded X-Treme?

That motor controller combination will run faster, have more range, pull hills better, and have cooler controller and motor temps, with this tire, and thats a proven tested fact, enjoy.

http://www.powersportsuperstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TR32-1650&click=8323

Good point - I'd forgotten about the fact that a bigger tire helps - at the expense of acceleration.

This is indeed as "proven" and "tested" by the federally accredited usatracy test labs I believe ;-) (that's just a good natured jest - credit due to Tracy for doing this and letting us all know about it - I just find his way of stating things a little "over the top").

Stock tire is 1300.6 mm circumference

80/90-10 is 1218.9 mm circumference

It is 6.25% smaller, not larger.

That motor controller combination needs a smaller tire to get into it's full throttle high speed high efficiency powerband.

80/90-10 is not available in China, must be imported from Japan.

80/90-10 will go faster than stock (due to more efficient mph to rpm motor-controller efficiency), accelerate better (due to smaller tire and more torque), have more range (less wasted amp hours thrown off as heat) and temps will be lower on motor and controller so less failures and longer life.

Or keep the 3.5x10

Most people accept the common annoyances associated with motorized vehicles but since they aren't used to the annoyances that go along with electric vehicles many are quick to discredit them.

I have to believe that most of us new owners of the XM-3000 realize that we're guinea pigs on this bike and it's not yet ready for mainstream folk. I'm hopeful that the designers behind it get some of our feedback to improve on this concept and make it more viable. The annoyances we're dealing with are far less than that of an gas engine, they are just different. The internal combustion engine has had more than 50 years of engineering refinement and it's still a ridiculous contraption. We've come to accept the weaknesses and foibles associated with gas engines as being normal. Power and speed are not everything. Judging our modes of transport should reflect quality of life issues and future needs of an ever expanding population.

I'm not worried about popping wheelies or getting up a hill the fastest. I'm more concerned with lifestyle and what we're doing to make our children's lives better.

Should mention, my expectations were quite low. I understood this was a product drop-shipped from China and knew the quality would NOT be there. It's like shopping at Harbor Freight. Cheap products that sometimes work. There are very few options out there at this price so it's really just an experiment for me. eXtreme would be doing themselves a favor to be more open about that. Their service has been acceptable however they should really be demanding immediate improvements from the supplier. I'd love to redesign this or import and make changes in-house before selling. Any investors?

You are right, I am negative towards Xtreme. I have had bad experiences with Xtreme equipment and do not like their business model. I almost feel someone needs to be the devils advocate to balance out the hype when they come out with another product that gets everybody ready to part with a couple of thousand dollars, and it turns out to be more of the same. More poorly packaged stuff that arrives broken. More bikes that can't go a few hundred miles without something braking on them. Products that require people to pull major components off and pay to have them shipped back on a brand new bike.

My intent was to make people look more carefully into purchasing these things instead of basing their decision on input here mostly from people who sell the stuff. It is obvious that the need for a product like they are offering is high right now, even if the stuff is sub standard in my opinion. I guess since I can't recommend a better alternative for the money, I will not post anymore comments about Xtreme bikes at this point.

well andy i am in the middle, although i have no experience with xtreme bikes as of yet, but your right the chinese substandard of manufacturing is not at all good, now there are alot of products that are good, so yeah its strange, i myself would rather see the bike upfront before ordering it off the net...thats just the way i am...now there has been alot of good comments and alot of bad...but i still want a vectrix...lol just waiting to see how the new xm3500 compares...i mean yeah half the price...

XM-3000 Dyno Tests

Andy - you're one step up on a lot of folks who post - at least you have direct experience with X-Treme. That counts for quite a bit. I don't have an issue with posts that call into question aspects of the X-Treme brand of bikes (or any others of course). Your posts just seemed a little over negative at times, and a little inaccurate (like the speedo issue above).

However, I ENCOURAGE YOU TO KEEP POSTING ABOUT X-TREME BIKES AND TO KEEP THOSE OF US WITH A VESTED INTEREST "HONEST".

So, please do continue to post. I must admit I got annoyed with you, I actually deleted one post I made which was much more aggressive - until I realized that I didn't understand your concerns nor your reasons for posting. The folks that p.o. me the most are those that are simply bashing a product and selling a different one.

PLEASE KEEP ON POSTING!

If you can add perspective and caveats that helps. Nothing in your last post is incorrect - but out of the 13 bikes I've sold 3 have had to ship back parts (in fact one had the whole bike returned). I AGREE that that's not good. However, 10 folks (77%) have bikes that work - what about that part of the complete picture? Certainly, if a potential customer doesn't like the look of this scenario they shouldn't buy - however, a lot of folks are so keen to get electric that they persuade themselves that they're "OK with it" and then when reality bites they're less happy. It's just human nature.

Note, as always, I'm speaking for myself, and my own approach as a seller of these bikes. I can't speak for X-Treme or any of their other dealers.

(Zapdos - wrt your last couple of sentences: I'm in process of tackling the problem as well. We're making progress - looked at some real estate yesterday).

singlow,

Great information - many thanks! A couple of questions:

1) I assume the figure in the cell is the Amperage?
2) When you say XM-3000 dyno test - is this an actual X-Treme XM-3000 strapped to a dyno? Or is it another bike with what you believe as the same components on a m/c dyno? Or is there some other form of testing being undertaken?
3) When and where were the tests performed?

Again, many thanks for the info.

I am like many others with this bike.. i had low expectations, planned on mods to make it more suited to me & my riding, but hoped the basic parts of the scooter would function for a while.

There is no denying the cheapness of these. But there are not many alternatives. I ride dirt bikes. I would not buy one of the chinese dirt bikes, because of the same issues. I can get a good used jap bike for what a new chinese one costs. In the ev world, this does not apply. The higher end bikes are just more expensive, & they also have issues.. many have as much as the xtremes.

I've put on 200km so far. Other than the shipping damage, the only other problems were the horn didn't work, & the charger didn't either. I already have a bank charging setup, so was not inconvenienced by the charger (xtreme has sent me another), & i took the horn off, tweaked it a bit, & it works, now. I keep an eye on the screws, & use threadlock whenever i take something off & put it back on. I made sure the tires were full of air, & coddle the batteries.. they are, after all, the life blood of the ev's.

My verdict so far: 'Thumbs up'. I'm pleased with the quality & function of these scooters. They aren't for a 30 mile commute, but under 20 they would be fine. At 10 or less they should last a long time. This is a perfect 'neighborhood vehicle' for me. I've given my wife a ride to work, run errands, meet people for appointments, go to the golf course, & use it for anything in the area. Now if i have to go up to Flagstaff, or do something in Phoenix, the scooter wouldn't do.

I keep mine on the low speed switch.. in Az if you go under 25mph you can be classified as a 'neighborhood electric vehicle' with simpler licensing & insurance.. mostly like a bicycle. The low speed setting is fine, as most of the speeds around here are 25-35. I can ride the bicycle lane in faster speed limits, & make turns in the traffic like a motorcycle.

I see people running little errands in their big suv or monster truck. If more people had a little personal electric vehicle, think of all the gas that would be saved.. the arabs might have to cut production..

I'm getting ready to ride over to where my wife works & join her for lunch. It's about a 2.5 mi ride, so about 5 roundtrip. The batteries don't even get hot.

Eventually, there will be electric vehicles that have a dealer network, are simple to operate & troubleshoot, & will appear more mainstream. But until then, there will be manufacturer's who will go out of business because they underestimated the warranty costs, or had too many lawsuits. Early adopters will struggle with the quirks of the medium. The limitations of electrics may keep it in a niche market.. it won't replace over the road trucks or locomotives for a while.. at least my scooter won't. :) But for short runs at lower speeds, it's perfect!

If POLITE dissent is NOT a part of this forum then it will loose it's value - real quick.

I think "early adopters" tend to be positive, and I like that, but I prefer hearing BOTH sides.

Andy...I guess I see it a bit different than you. First, what kind of "business model" would you prefer to see? Would it be a realistic model for selling ANY "scooter"...like gasoline. When was the last time you saw a "gasoline scooter" sold in a "strictly" name brand shop that only sold "scooters?" Xtreme doesn't sell "electric motorcycles." They sell "toy" electrics, ebikes, ATVs and scooters. These rides are really "side line products" and not what a "dealer" opens up to sell. Wouldn't even matter if they were "gas" driven. Aren't the Honda and Yamaha scooters etc...sold by "motorcycle" shops and don't you suppose those are more a "side line" for the motorcycle dealers? Look, I respect your view, but a "scooter" is a "scooter" regardless of how it's powered. How much support, quality, and so forth do you think you'll get for $2000-2500 regardless of who makes it? I think X-treme does a great job under the circumstances of what they are actually doing...something that hardly any other supplier of any size is doing. And as for Chinese manufacturing...well you get what you pay for I suppose. The idea is to keep the price down and profit up...just as in any business...but as well to "sell" inventory. They couldn't sell enough of these to American importers like X-treme if they put more quality (increased cost) into them or better parts (increased cost). That's cause X-treme couldn't sell them at what that cost would be. Again, these are "scooters" and not hugely popular transportation nationwide. It's almost a "novelty" market regardless of the way the thing is powered.

I think your implication of a bunch of folks here on the forum selling and being dealers for these products is wrong. I'm certainly not one...and I only know of two folks who regularly post here who are dealers for any electric products. Most folks who post here are like me...interested in electric vehicles and such...who have no financial involvement in the industry or associated industries.

Look, I wish I could go to a REAL ELECTRIC SCOOTER dealer and buy a REAL HIGH QUALITY electric scooter for a VERY REASONABLE price. But you know what...that isn't going to happen. If it could...then there would have been VESPA, YAMAHA, HONDA scooter dealers in every mid-size town in the US. But there isn't and never has been. Product demand dictates market, delivery, cost, quality and on and on.

I respect your opinion...but respectfully disagree 100%.

Gushar

I guess the bottom line is if people who are buying these things are mostly happy with them, then Xtreme has succeeded. One thing you have to hand to them, is they actually have product to sell. Even if when you decide to buy one, you are throwing the dice on whether you will get one that will work without a lot of effort on your part.

I think they are making enough money on this stuff to take better care of their customers on broken and damaged stuff though. What I meant by not liking their business model, is that repair parts should be shipped back and forth at their expense, and it shouldn't take a week to get a response on a repair ticket. If they are selling so much of these no-quality-controlled- products, that they have so many people needing warranty repair parts, then they need to hire and train a few more people.

I went through hell with them until finally I got what I need to make my scooter work. drove me nuts that they had no phone customer service at all-they never returned calls or answered the phone at the number they had listed at the web site. Parts they sent weren't any better than the broken ones on several occasions, and were the wrong parts on others. But Xtreme doesn't have a corner on the market of lousy customer service these days, do they. maybe that is what bugs me, is that now we have grown accustomed to lousy service after we buy things, even ones that cost a couple of thousand dollars, we almost expect it.

By the way, I distinctly remember a post where the speedo on one of the larger Xtreme scooters was off by a significant amount on just about all the scooters-may have been the XM2000. Something about tires too small? if it is only reading 10% high, then my bad.

The crazy thing is, I'd probably like these new large scooters if I got a chance to ride one that was working well, but I haven't got the stomach to deal with the potential headaches right now, or have a pressing need for another EV.

Look, I wish I could go to a REAL ELECTRIC SCOOTER dealer and buy a REAL HIGH QUALITY electric scooter for a VERY REASONABLE price. But you know what...that isn't going to happen. If it could...then there would have been VESPA, YAMAHA, HONDA scooter dealers in every mid-size town in the US. But there isn't and never has been. Product demand dictates market, delivery, cost, quality and on and on.

Sigh.... in Japan, you can go to a Yamaha or Honda scooter dealer and that's all they sell. Great for service and after market support. But then again, the oil crisis hit Japan worse in the 1970s than the USA.

In Japan, electric-assist bikes are all the rage. You can get a good cheap one for less than $400 at your local electric store, made by Panasonic and fully warrantied. They're very popular with housewives in Japan because you can have two kids (one in front, one in back) and bag loads of groceries and still make it up the hill to your apartment.

But then again, Japan isn't the USA.

Karen

I'm intrigued at the dyno data - so, a bigger tire doesn't mean higher top speed! Which tire was the stock size?

Which tire was the stock size?

The 3.5x10

may have been the XM2000. Something about tires too small? if it is only reading 10% high, then my bad.

The XM-2000 was the exact same 10% high (same sized tires too). My guess is that they chose the tire size to give the performance characteristics but didn't recalibrate the speedo. That's one of the things with bad news - is it can get amplified over time. Usually it's not in a mean spirited way - it's just the nature of the beast.

The crazy thing is, I'd probably like these new large scooters if I got a chance to ride one that was working well, but I haven't got the stomach to deal with the potential headaches right now

Yeah, I bet you would like one. They are great when they work, but I very much do understand the frustration with dealing with this business model. It isn't ideal - but it's pretty much all that the majority of folks have got to work with at the moment. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep the pressure on to try and improve things.

Well, looks like I am late to the game here.. however,

I gotta start out by saying. I like the bike a lot. Perhaps I lucked out, the entirety of my problems have been:

Minor body damage that I truly don't care about
Blown 12V fuse after riding in the rain
Poor construction of the bracket that holds the front brake caliper (had to dremel it out a bit)
Many place where rust is starting to form
Rubber seal in motor bushing not well places (needed some oil to free it up and stop rubbery noise)

I've had no problems with my charger
I've had no problems with my speed controller
I've had no problems with the use of my bike

I had some issues registering it. I've never owned a bike before and when I filled out the paperwork for registration I put API as the make which did not show up in the NYS database. After days of calls.. it turns out that if I had written Alpha, all would have been well. Yeesh.

I installed a PakTrakr which I lke a lot, although I installed in it aplace where I can not see it (n the glove compartment door). But I dont care, I bought it to be able to take run data. I am logging the output of the Paktraker with a Spark Fun Logomatic. This is working out great.

I am gong to install Powercheq modules soon to see if there is any difference.

I have gone about 320kM so far (speedo reading, who knows what it really is). My range, I just found out, is 21 miles, not using economy. But its freaky at the end.

My commute is 6 miles to and from work. To work I have a long steep hill (I dont know the grade). my speed on that hill is consistently 25 MPH (not Kph). The only times I have really had an issue with speed are the 2 times so far that I have drained the battery to red. I dont need to charge at work to be able to get home.

I notice that once I hit the yellow region under load, by juice is essentially gone. I quickly get into scary red zone. I have found that putting the economode on at this time does allow me to get from here to there, but man that is slow. In the red, in economode, I use about 500-1000 watts. Thats better than getting what essentially becomes 0 in normal mode.

Well those are my notes so far. I'm one of John Hardings "happy customers". :)

My blog post on this will be more about specific performance and engineering aspects of the bike and how to setup data acquisition equipment like I have done. But it will come later.