Bailout plan includes plug-in vehicle tax credits

Whomever wrote this legislation must have researched available vehicles and arrived at 4 KWH to exclude all of the existing scooters/motorcyles. This number is most likely the battery capacity of someone's plug in hybird modification. Where else would such an odd number come from?

Notice how they specifically omit do-it-yourself electric car conversions: "...which is made by a manufacturer" That is a stupid move if they actually cared about getting EV's on the road. A few thousand dollar credit would make it feasible to build the small AC drive Lithium powered classic sports car I have been wanting to do, and would be a real help financially for a lot of wannabe EV builders.

What does any of this have to do with the mortgage finance crisis?

As hard as I try, I don't think I will ever understand Washington. Their minds just don't work right. ;-)

Lightweight home-built aircraft and alternate craft such as the "parachute" and Delta-winged hang gliders with the chainsaw engines have the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA?).

As a result, they have the "carrot and stick" of lobbyist campaign contributions to key congressmen, and the threat of TV protests for ignoring their requests. EV conversion enthusiasts aren't organized yet.

I believe a vital piece of what the US should have is a thriving EV conversion industry. As much as major manufacturers SAY they cant afford to begin producing alternatives (plug in hybrids) without tax credits and restricting garage competition, if congress did allow competition, corporations would do what it takes.

In the late 1890's the horse lobby (cabs, Horse-pulled trolleys, etc) got England to pass the red flag laws. A person had to walk a distance in front a car with a red flag to warn horse users, to prevent them being spooked.

The result was that a car had to travel at the speed of a man walking, plus hire a flag-walker. Rolls-Royce thrived, (the owners were never cited) but there was no British "Model T". In the US berore WW-one, Buick, Oldsmobile, Studebaker, and a dozen other marques thrived.

Don't you know about the other EAA ?? http://eaaev.org/ .. they've been in existence for over 40 yrs.

However, their purpose statement doesn't include lobbying for legislation. I know most of the EAA-EV board members and they're not up to being national level activists (in my opinion). However they're closely associated with Plug-In America who is activisting for "plug-in" vehicles as a general category which includes battery EV's. Of the EAA leadership I know, Ron Freund (who's also on Plug-In America's board) is the closest to what I'd think of as national level activist.

PIA is more in the mold of what you're suggesting.. activists trying to get laws passed etc. But they've never struck me as being interested in hobbyist EV's (I've met some of the PIA leadership) and looking over their board of directors list it's heavily people who bought commercial EV's.

Here's a list of worldwide EV associations I've found.. most of the list is local chapters of the EAA.
http://www.7gen.com/website-categories/electric-vehicle-associations

On my list is:

http://www.electricdrive.org/ - Electric Drive Transportation Association - They're a Washington Lobbying organization, they have a conference scheduled for December in Washington, and the conference is going to discuss Fuel Cell vehicles's, and Next Generation Hybrids... not hobbyist built EV's.

EVS is a large yearly show ... http://www.evs24.org/ is the next episode of the show. I've never been but it seems geared to manufacturers.

Thanks again, David, for all the great research that you do! While I would be trying to figure out which search terms to use, you already have published all the important links in one place.

I enjoy the stories about early post WWII hot rodders. They were just making things for themselves and each other to have fun, stuff that major manufacturers weren't producing. There was enough of an interest that some of them eventually evolved into profitable businesses.

Years from now, enthusiasts will be posting stories to newbies about back in the day when EV's started to take off. How ebikes.com was started by some college kids, and Zilla controllers were first made in a garage to race an EV at the new NEDRA electric drag races.

Edelbrock made a package with aluminum heads (one compression point higher than stock) that also breathed better, with matched headers and a cam. You lost some low RPM power, but the engine breathed easier at the higher RPM's. All the research had been done by someone else, and it bolted on in one weekend. Till recently they were all shipped with a warning that they were for "off-road use only", because the expensive smog certifications hadn't been performed.

A "plug-and-play" EV conversion kit would put a lot of EV's on the road very quickly, and the kit form of business might protect entrepreneurs from the litigation that could easily sink a start-up.

To be fair to the big manufacturers, while Prius sales have been pretty steady, the Insight and hybrid Accord were discontinued due to low sales. The Honda hybrid powertrain is selling acceptably as a Civic option, but coming out with a new plug-in Hybrid that flops can cost millions. Certainly no incentives for big corps to help garage competition. I'm certain Ford/GM/Chrysler have lobbyists...

What does any of this have to do with the mortgage finance crisis?

As hard as I try, I don't think I will ever understand Washington. Their minds just don't work right. ;-)

It's not too hard to understand;

Mom: Eat your spinach. [first bill]
Kid: No! [everyone with a brain cell - vetoed]
Mom: If you eat your spinach you can have cookies for dessert. [revised bill, appropriately called "sweetening the deal"]
Kid: Oh-kay. [ooooh... cookies! - passed]

It is a stupid way to get things passed - resort to bribery, or in other cases tuck it in and hope no one sees it (like feeding pills to a dog).

Whomever wrote this legislation must have researched available vehicles and arrived at 4 KWH to exclude all of the existing scooters/motorcyles.

Hmm, very intersting. I just purchased (arrived today) an RMartin EVD LFP, and it's battery pack is about 4.4 kWh. Does this mean I get to claim the $2,500 credit? Wow, that would sure bring my effective cost down a bit. :)

The way I read and understand it is that with an qualifying EV you get the $2500 and that if it it is over the 4KWH then you get the extra. Maybe I am wrong, who does taxes here, please let us know. God Bless :)

You have to keep reading to the part where they define what a "qualified vehicle" is:

(c) New Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle- For purposes of this
section, the term 'new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle'
means a motor vehicle--
(1) which draws propulsion using a traction battery with at least 4 kilowatt
hours of capacity,

So my take is that the vehicle doesn't qualify for the rebate unless it is at least 4kW-h.

Jeremy

(1) which draws propulsion using a traction battery with at least 4 kilowatt
hours of capacity,

That sounds like it's talking about the batteries. How many amp-hours are in a 4kW battery? (is that even a question?)

That sounds like it's talking about the batteries. How many amp-hours are in a 4kW battery? (is that even a question?)

Yea, it's a question of voltage. watts = amps x volts. So a 3.5v, 60ah battery holds 210 watt-hours, and 21 of those adds up to 4,410 watt hours (or 4.4 kilowatt-hours)

Possible that an R Martin EVD with it's 21x60Ah cells might qualify for a credit?

Possible that an R Martin EVD with it's 21x60Ah cells might qualify for a credit?

Since my EVD LFP arrived on Monday, I'm certainly hoping so. :)

However, reading the bill online, it looks like the tax credits apply to 'the tax year following Dec 31,2008', which is probably legal-speak for 'not until next year'.

You have to keep reading to the part where they define what a "qualified vehicle" is:

(c) New Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle- For purposes of this
section, the term 'new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle'
means a motor vehicle--
(1) which draws propulsion using a traction battery with at least 4 kilowatt
hours of capacity,

So my take is that the vehicle doesn't qualify for the rebate unless it is at least 4kW-h.

Jeremy

Any idea whether the definition of 'motor vehicle' means a given number of wheels? One thing I've learned reading laws and lawyerese is at the front they have a series of definitions and for the purposes of the given document the phrases are defined and used based on those definitions, even if the phrase has a different meaning when used in common speech.

'motor vehicle' might not mean 'any vehicle with a motor' but some other definition.

In my country, I didn't have to pay 20% VAT for the Vectrix and no road tax. Only vehicles above 7kW or above 48ccm or with at least 6000km done have to pay VAT. I saved 1300 EUR.

The term "Motor Vehicle" usually applies to anything requiring registration as a motor vehicle and operable on US highways... and motor powered.

I don't see why a highway-speed capable scooter would not be eligible.

Its based on the entire section (c):

It states:
(c) New Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicle- For purposes of this
section, the term 'new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle'
means a motor vehicle--
(1) which draws propulsion using a traction battery with at least 4 kilowatt
hours of capacity,
(2) which uses an offboard source of energy to recharge such battery,
(3) which, in the case of a passenger vehicle or light truck which has a
gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 8,500 pounds, has received
a certificate of conformity under the Clean Air Act and meets or exceeds
the equivalent qualifying California low emission vehicle standard under
section 243(e)(2) of the Clean Air Act for that make and model year, and
(A) in the case of a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 6,000
pounds or less, the Bin 5 Tier II emission standard established in
regulations prescribed by the Administrator of the Environmental
Protection Agency under section 202(i) of the Clean Air Act for that
make and model year vehicle, and
(B) in the case of a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of more
than 6,000 pounds but not more than 8,500 pounds, the Bin 8 Tier II
emission standard which is so established,
(4) the original use of which commences with the taxpayer,
(5) which is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer and not for resale, and
(6) which is made by a manufacturer.

Meaning the vehicle must meet ALL of the specifications in THE ENTIRE section (c)

It must have a pack bigger than 4kWh, charges using external power (plug-in), has a certificate of conformity under the Clean Air Act (or bin 5 tier II or bin 8 tier II emission standard), is used BY the taxpayer themselves and is "Made by a manufacturer" meaning its a factory PHEV/EV.

So unless you've got a pack larger than 4kWh, are a vehicle manufacturer and can get clean air certificates of conformity... you won't get the credit. Its for manufactured vehicles only, and they seem to disclude home conversions.

Of course, it could be argued that the original vehicle had a clean air act certificate and was made by a manufacturer before you installed batteries, but I think its going to be nearly impossible for someone to get them to budge. They're trying to make people BUY PHEV's and EV's to get the tax credit. They're trying to stimulate the economy by motivating people to purchase a new vehicle and pay sales taxes, fees, etc on the new vehicle. They're making it more attractive to people to go green.

It must have a pack bigger than 4kWh, charges using external power (plug-in), has a certificate of conformity under the Clean Air Act (or bin 5 tier II or bin 8 tier II emission standard), is used BY the taxpayer themselves and is "Made by a manufacturer" meaning its a factory PHEV/EV.

So unless you've got a pack larger than 4kWh, are a vehicle manufacturer and can get clean air certificates of conformity... you won't get the credit. Its for manufactured vehicles only, and they seem to disclude home conversions.

Right - agreed. The two sticking points for the current XM's and EFun's is pack size and "clean air certificates". I don't think either of those issues are hard to overcome for a manufacturer. AFAIK, for an all electric vehicle the EPA certification should be a straightforward paperwork process. For the kWh of the pack it's a case of the manufacturer producing a bike with a larger pack. I'm planning on writing my local representatives and finding out more details.

Unfortunately though it does seem like home conversions (including adding your own battery packs) are screwed.

Of course, it could be argued that the original vehicle had a clean air act certificate and was made by a manufacturer before you installed batteries, but I think its going to be nearly impossible for someone to get them to budge. They're trying to make people BUY PHEV's and EV's to get the tax credit. They're trying to stimulate the economy by motivating people to purchase a new vehicle and pay sales taxes, fees, etc on the new vehicle. They're making it more attractive to people to go green.

Another way of looking at this is it encourages development of corporations to build PHEV's and EV's.

Fact is a factory can produce a lot more EV's than tinkerers in their garage and it would accomplish a lot more impact to have corporations building these things so people can buy them.

OK, so the general consensus is that the bailout plan does NOT contain any tax credit for EV conversions. That's a shame. I'll keep looking to see if there any other possible tax break for my EV conversion project. Thanks to everyone here for this research.

This isn't directly related to the provisions of the 2008 bailout, but gives a view of the intent of the hybrid credit that expires in late 2009. I wonder if the EV credit in the bailout has numbers limits that are PER MANUFACTURER instead of total numbers, first come, first served?

"Tax Credit for Hybrid Vehicles"
http://ntlsearch.bts.gov/tris/search.do?f1=mnid&new=&t1=396904&d=tr

Hybrid vehicles are propelled by a standard gasoline (or diesel) internal combustion engine in combination with an electric motor (and battery storage system), which improves fuel economy. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 replaced a $2,000 deduction for hybrids with a system of tax credits that vary according to fuel efficiency and estimated lifetime fuel savings, compared with a 2002 comparable gasoline-only model. These credits, which range from $250 to $3,400 per vehicle, went into effect on January 1, 2006, and are available through December 31, 2009. However, there is an approximately 60,000-per-manufacturer limit on the number of hybrid vehicles that would qualify for the full credit. Toyota reached its limit in the second quarter of 2006, and the credits for those vehicles are being phased out and will not be available after October 1, 2007. Honda reached its limit in the third quarter of 2007. U.S. manufacturers (primarily General Motors and Ford) produce mostly SUV hybrids, which have seen slower demand. The tax credits for hybrids were enacted to promote energy conservation in the transportation sector by encouraging the demand for fuel-efficient alternative-technology vehicles. The 60,000-vehicle limit was imposed to limit the benefits accruing to foreign hybrid manufacturers, which currently dominate the hybrid market.

hello! I have recently started a nonprofit organization called the Yellow Line Institute. Check us out at http://www.YellowLineCars.org.

One of our first orders of business is to create a PETITION asking Congress and the President to ammend the bailout provision to include Electric Vehicle CONVERSIONS. We agree with everyone on this list who has expressed concern that the provision only applies to new vehicles.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this as I write up the petition. You can contact me through Yellow Line's website or by email: lizbethbrown [at] gmail.com. Drop me a line or sign up for our newsletter if you want to receive an email when the petition is ready to be signed.

Thanks,
~ liz

--
Lizbeth M. Brown
Executive Director
Yellow Line Institute
www.YellowLineCars.org
lizbethbrown [at] gmail.com