Speculations on XM-5000Li

Ben-- welcome on board, now that we have your name and number your dues statement will appear the beginning of the month and we will let you know the date of your hazing so called "ritual"!

I am getting my 6kw motor in the mail any day from China, these hub motors are all probably from the same manufacture(ers) as the 3.5kw motor that is coming of my XM.

I too am wondering about the torque at low rpms? As I have added 4 more batteries for a 24 cell pak--once the motor is in and the idea is that more juice should keep the larger motor happy. My wunder-lust also is around the rated 72Volt for the 6kw and how high I can go in adding a few more batteries=28 cell max. Once again I am at the temperature limit of the hub. Guess I might as well ask Kelly Controllers direct Dah....

Last but not least I am wondering why it is so quiet on these pages? We have snow here too in Seattle and yet I cant stop thinking about
getting back on my bike and (for the most part) kissing big oil goodbye.

Big News at least here, I run bio in my Jetta and of course B99 is not a good idea when the temp is below 30 (18 this morning). So I went to Shell to top the tank off and by jimmies they have put 5%bio in all of their Diesel! Not to mention the 10% of ethanol that is in the gas. WOW things are really starting to change.

The very last last thing, the movie FUEL is really worth seeing, it starts out a bit of the same old but then kicks into high
gear and makes our future look so promising and do-able for all the alternative fuels; especially bio. If you are fortunate and live in a green area it should be playing there soon. Here is the link to the calender and the site(note all of the awards the film has received)

http://thefuelfilm.com/calendar

Best Wishes for Happy Holidays to all you EV Geeks and Geekess'es....Mikie

The batteries in the 5000 are 60 amp-hours, not the 40 Ah in the 3500 ... thus more current and more power available.

What is the XM-5000li's real weight (not 216 lbs)?

What is the "automatic 2-speed transmission" that the 3500 and 5000 are supposed to have?

Does it really work?
Can you tell when it shifts?
Are the experienes with the slow speeds because the transmission is "stick" in low gear?

Does one need to be 4'6" and weigh 80 pounds to get the "tested" range results?

Does anybody think that the 5000 might be better quality than the 3500?

The 5000 must be somewhat re-designed - at least it must have a larger battery compartment?
It appears to be a few inches longer and a little wider.

I was discouraged to read all the poor construction of the 3500, both in the plastic parts and in the metal-work.

That, and the reported lack of smooth throttle control made me NOT buy the 3500.

Has anybody had a 3500li get delivered WITHOUT damage?

One dealer said he got one for himself and one for his wife, and at least his was damaged.

Is there any hope for the 5000li?

Thanks, Gary

Gary,

My 3500 arrived in CA undamaged from the trip, though there were a few things that were shipped from the factory "as-is", so to speak. That is, blemishes/chips in the cowling which were touched-up with a clear goop as an attempt to repair/hide/minimise.
Posted about tranny elsewhere where you dbl posted question.

FYI; XB-700 arrived w/minor damage via H&L(?).
What can I say about the XM-5000...sure'd be nice with a ....BMS ;)

OAO,
Ross

Hi -

Bear in mind that I haven't laid my hands on one of these bikes. The following are guesstimates based on what I know as a dealer (some even say an "honest" dealer (pchilds please note!) ;))

What is the XM-5000li's real weight (not 216 lbs)?

My guesstimate would be around 300lbs

What is the "automatic 2-speed transmission" that the 3500 and 5000 are supposed to have?
Does it really work?
Can you tell when it shifts?
Are the experienes with the slow speeds because the transmission is "stick" in low gear?

Ack! I would be amazed if there were a transmission (there isn't a transmission in the 3500). On the 5000 I strongly suspect that this is a two speed switch which controls throttle output - like on the XM-3500. This needs to be corrected - I'll send email to the owner of X-Treme and see if I can persuade him to change it.

Does one need to be 4'6" and weigh 80 pounds to get the "tested" range results?

No, 4'8" and 100lbs is fine. ;) Seriously though - a reasonable size and weight of a test rider would be in the 150lb to 180lb weight range. The range results are most affected by speed - so, the maximum range quoted is usually at no more than 30mph - and maybe even less. Unfortunately not very useful!

Does anybody think that the 5000 might be better quality than the 3500?

Yes, it might be. It's not made in the same factory as the 3500 and uses an entirely different motor and controller (although that doesn't address the quality of body work, welds etc.).

The 5000 must be somewhat re-designed - at least it must have a larger battery compartment?
It appears to be a few inches longer and a little wider.

I was discouraged to read all the poor construction of the 3500, both in the plastic parts and in the metal-work.

AFAIK, the XM-5000, the XM-3500, the EVD and numerous others all share EXACTLY the same chassis. The electric scooter manufacturers buy the "glider" (bike without engine, transmission, rear wheel etc.) and then "electrify" it. It would appear that they're all sourcing their "gliders" from the same place (it's also possible that their are several suppliers supplying the same bike - but my guess is that if you can trace these back they all share a common origin).

The different size and battery count just come down to different packaging schemes for the batteries.

The construction of the plastic and metalwork of the base bike is the same on all three models - and, IMO, isn't that bad (it's not great but it's not terrible either). The place where these bikes will vary in workmanship is the work done to "electrify" the bike. That's a new swing arm, a battery box and mounting the controller, DC-DC converter etc. Depending on the attention to detail in these areas you may see "good" or "bad" design decisions and/or workmanship.

That, and the reported lack of smooth throttle control made me NOT buy the 3500.

On the 3500 the throttle control on low speed setting isn't too bad - it takes some getting used to. On high speed it's definitely somewhat of a "binary" device - alas our one XM-3500li crash was when a new rider started off in high speed - no harm to the rider, cracked plastic on the bike.

The XM-5000 might fare better here - because it seems that it's tuned for speed not torque. One thing to bear in mind is that the XM-3500 had lots of torque (and very quick acceleration) but at the expense of top speed. The XM-5000 might have a different throttle and is likely to have less torque.

On our "XM-4500" which is not a real product but an XM-3500 with Kelly controller and Kelly 4.5kW motor the throttle controller is much smoother (from the same physical throttle).

Has anybody had a 3500li get delivered WITHOUT damage?
One dealer said he got one for himself and one for his wife, and at least his was damaged.

Yep, all six bikes (XM-2000, XM-3000 * 2, XM-3500Li * 2, XB-600) that I have personally unpacked have been without significant damage (a couple had slight blemishes or rubbed spots - but none had cracked plastic). It would be interesting to plot a map of damaged bikes and see if they cluster in a particular geographic region. Is it possible that final stage delivery is the issue?

EDIT: three or four of my customers have received damaged bikes. All of them received replacement parts from X-Treme.

Is there any hope for the 5000li?

Yes, I think there is hope. I do expect that this bike will be a step up from the XM-3500Li. Will it be as good as a Vectrix? I strongly doubt that! Will it be better than an EVD (that's its real competition)? The jury is still out on that one - and I'm sure the folks at RMartin won't be standing still. But the XM-5000Li is available and I'm sure with a little TLC can be a good bike. However, if you're looking for a Honda-like experience you need to spend more money and consider the Vectrix.

So, a lot depends on the customer, his/her expectations, his/her determination to make things work and of course his/her actual usage of the bike. That's always been the case and will be the case for some time to come yet.

---

Disclaimer: My company (Electric Vehicle Manufacturing, LLC) is currently working on a competitor product - see this post for details.

Some of the things that are different about the XM-5000Li

- Real top speed is reported to be 60, with some test bikes topping faster (lesson learned)
- Accurate speedometer - GPS verified (lesson learned)
- Weighs about 12 lbs more than a 3500Li
- Range is up from the 3500Li's 50-60 to 90 miles
- New motor and controller, as already mentioned
-- This could change the throttle response, unless it comes from the same manufacturer and is only a power upgrade from the 3500Li's controller...in that case, it could have the same throttle response
- Shipping is changed from R&L to UPS Freight. R&L's damage rate ran about 14%. So far, UPS is running under 1% (lesson learned)

Disclaimer: I will be buying one of these in January, and I'm a dealer.

Andy

Apparently the XM-2000 had a "shifting" mechanism built onto the right end of the rear axle. See the pictures in the manual:

Modifiying the XM-2000 Shift Mechanism

What did it do?

Does this "shifter" not exist on the XM-3000, XM3500li, or XM5000li? It should be easy to see by taking out just two screws to remove the right-side plastic covering over the rear wheel axle.

Thanks, Gary

Gary - the XM-2000 had a very unique motor - it actually had two separate windings (one for torque, one for speed) and there was a mechanical shift between the two setups.

The XM-3000, 3500 and 5000 all have a motor with a single winding and the "shift" is simply a switch on the handlebar that in lowspeed setting limits the output range of the throttle signal.

Andy,

Thanks for the heads up on the 5000Li; nice to see the product evolving. But we still lack a functional BMS or at the very least some way to protect the cells from over-voltage during charging. The latter solution would be acceptable to me. This is the sole reason I will probably never really be able to recommend this bike. Too bad because I'm really becoming fond of my 3500Li.

Ben

I agree completely on the lack of BMS. The charger is derated enough that cells in fair balance going into charge will come out in good shape (the cells will tolerate some overcharge), so I'm not too concerned there. But over-discharge will kill lithium iron cells quickly. Cell life will be much, much better if the bikes had a low voltage protection board.

Thundersky has a very significant BMS solution, but it also has a significant price. Phoenix Silicon International has a less expensive BMS option that's designed for LiFePO4 in higher voltage EVs and is proven - but it's not approved by either TS or X-Treme for warranty. The DIY board from Endless Sphere is also excellent, but is another 'not approved' option.

The BMS challenge isn't an X-treme thing, though. There appears to be a lack of decent BMS options for LiFePO4 overall.

Andy

What is the XM-5000li's real weight (not 216 lbs)?

Does one need to be 4'6" and weigh 80 pounds to get the "tested" range results?

Gary,

The folks at X-Treme unwrapped one of the 5000Li's today and put it on the scale - 353lbs. The controller is reported to be nearly twice the size of the 3500Li, and the motor is larger. In addition, (20) TS 40Ah cells at 3.5lbs is 70 lbs, while (21) 60Ah cells at 5.5 lb hits 115.5 lbs - for an increase of 45.5lbs.

The quoted speed and range tests were done with a GPS and corn-fed midwest-size people (can I say that if I am one?). They got 60 mph with two aboard. I don't know the 'cruise speed' for the 90 mile range, and don't know how many were aboard for that evaluation.

This thing's got my attention. I really wanted a 3500 until I read about the speed and speedo challenges. This just might have the right combination of 'bang for the buck' to cover most of my driving. And now that X-Treme fired R&L, the bike should look better, too. I may never hit 500,000 miles on my diesel VW at this rate (110K to go...)! :-)

Andy

I've been a dealer for X-Treme for over 2 years now, and the only thing I have to say about buying any X-Treme product is DON'T. You will be sorry for ever throwing away your money at them.

Cool, X-Treme can actually look at a 5000.

Where are the two frame VIN #s located?
Is there a motor ("engine") number stamped into the motor case?
An "engine number" is needed for Registration in CA.

With the greater weight and speed, has the 3500's "marginal" (at higher speeds) frame and suspension been upgraded in the 5000?

Has the lighting been improved?
How do they describe the 5000's low speed throttle control, hopefully much smoother?

Were there any shipping defects?
Was it "packaged" better?

Is there a "pdf" manual that we can read?
Any documentation, specs, or model # for the controller?

Thanks, Gary

ArticFox,
Why are you still an X-Treme dealer if you advise so strongly against buying their products?

Specificly, what are your complaints?
Thanks, Gary

I'd also be curious what their MCO paperwork lists as the horsepower for the XM-5000Li.

Would somebody please tell us all the data on the MCO for the 5000li?
And for comparison, all the information on the MCO for the 3500li, please.

What is an example of the VIN for each (use nnnn for the last 4 digits).

Where an "engine number" is needed for Registration (like in California),
what is an example of the "engine number" assigned by the CHP (California
Highway Patrol)? (again use nnn for the last 3 digits of your engine number)

Where did the CHP stamp the number?
Can you show us a a picture?

Seems like I could samve myself some time at the DMV if I stamped
a similar number on the motor before my fist visit. I have a set of
letters and digits to use (from Harbor Freight) if I could make up
a suitable similar-fomat number.

Or, does the XM-5000li already have an "engine number" on the motor?

Thanks, and Merry Christmas, Gary

I'd be willing to bet that X-Treme doesn't even have that information. And whatever information they do tell you will be wrong or a complete fabrication.

BTW, fraudulently stamping a "similar number" yourself, I believe, is a federal crime.

1. Thanks for the tip about the engine numbers.
I will have one assigned and applied by the local Highway Patrol.

2. Do you mean buy from you but not directly from X-Treme?
Or, do not buy any X-Treme product?

3. If the latter, why do you offer many of their products for sale on your web site?

If you cannot say why here, please PM me.
Thanks, because I am considering the XM-5000li.

Update - XM-5000Li

This info just received from X-Treme. They have three 5000Lis unpacked and assembled and took photos this afternoon. The photos should be posted within the next couple of days. To date, all photos seen on the web for the 5000Li are actually 3500Lis. Most of the details are the same, as the frame and plastic are very similar.

One significant difference is that the controller for the 5000Li is on the outside of the bike, lower left side. From the description I received on the phone, it sounds similar to the controller location used by RMartin on the EVD.

There is a VIN plate attached to the right rear of the bike. The motor has a manufacturer number but does not appear to have a serial number. It's probable that the requirement for an 'engine number' when registering in some states is tied to the use of the internal combustion engine number to positively identify engine size in CCs.

I did some 'reverse engineering' from a number of gas scooter sites and came up with an approximate 'engine equivalent size'. This may be very wrong, but I think it's a start. ;-)

Vespa's 150CC 4-stroke bikes top at 59mph. Their 50CC bikes top at 39mph. 50CC scoots list 2.3KW for power while 150CC list 7KW. The 5000W bike appears to be in the '108CC equivalent' vicinity and provides 150CC speeds.

Andy

Hey Guys-- this may be redundant info but 740 watts= 1hp so then your 5000watt scooter should have 6.75hp. Does that help at all in your
search?

Guess you could use the same data as a 65-80cc scooter as figured below.

ENGINE	CC	HP	CC/HP
Honda-stockroadbike	125	33	3.7879
60ccScooter	60	5.8	10.3448
Superbike600ccClass	599	112	5.3482
Briggs & Strattonengine	319	8	39.8750
Shipsturbotwostrokediesel,14cyl	25,498,000	108,920	234.0

I did some 'reverse engineering' from a number of gas scooter sites and came up with an approximate 'engine equivalent size'. This may be very wrong, but I think it's a start. ;-)

Vespa's 150CC 4-stroke bikes top at 59mph. Their 50CC bikes top at 39mph. 50CC scoots list 2.3KW for power while 150CC list 7KW. The 5000W bike appears to be in the '108CC equivalent' vicinity and provides 150CC speeds.

Sorry...missed a point. The reason for my amateur engine size estimate was for insurance. My insurance company uses Progressive for motorcycle policies. When I telephoned for a 'guestimate' on insurance, they wanted a VIN and engine size in CCs to positively classify the bike.

Another reason for MCO listed horsepower is that some states, like Louisiana, use the hp rating to determine what category the bike falls into and whether or not you need a motorcycle license for it. We could try the 760w=1hp ratio, but that would also assume 100% motor efficiency. Still, as an example, my 3500Li lists the horsepower on the MCO as only 1.6 hp (I think it was 1.6, 1.something at any rate). By the wattage to hp ratio I would have expected closer to 4hp. Not sure exactly what the requirement on that kind of paperwork is, though, for determining the figure. Do they have to use a dynanomoter or something? Whatever it is, it came out mighty low.

ArticFox,
Why are you still an X-Treme dealer if you advise so strongly against buying their products?

Specificly, what are your complaints?
Thanks, Gary

I have chosen not to do any further business with X-treme, its employees, or its parent company Alpha Products International. I have had too many problems with them to list individually; a google search will tell it all.

X-Treme will have an XM-5000Li at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) from 8-11 Jan. Booth: Sands 74029

http://myces.bdmetrics.com/CDT-5819348/X-Treme-Scooters/Details.aspx

Anyone planning on attending CES?

Gary et al,
When I went through the registration & inspection process at the CHP office, the CHP wanted me to open my motor! to see if there was a number inside. I actually called X-treme and told them what was happening with the CHP, the CHP officer/inspector talked with X-treme/API staff directly about the need for an engine number and what its characteristics & format should be in the future.
There's not much excuse for there to be no engine or motor numbers on their newer bikes.
By the way, the CHP stamped a number on the outer surface of the hub itself.
It's parked elsewhere, so can't read you the format.

Happy New Year!
Ross

Boy- that makes my blood boil! The bureaucracy & limitations of old thinking....I guess in a few years we will laugh our butts off
at the hoops and all the sticks we had to jump through and over in the "good old days" just to get our transportation on the road!

So I am stoked, today I hooked up all 24 cells and I am off to the scooter shop to finally get all the new hardware hooked up. I am taking
my infrared thermometer with me and I will check the temp out on the outer hub surface (passenger side) after the 5 mile ride to the shop on the old 3.5kw motor and then compare that temp with the new 6kw motor on the return trip back home. All should be done in a week or so, I will keep you guys informed on how it comes out and I am also going to ask them to write down any electrical figures or procedural maneuvers that may be pertinent to share with this forum so that it will make any of your future mods that much easier.

It is good to draw out mt chen and see what is up in china, sounds like they are just going bigger power and not much support for a long lasting product. I guess the bms is really a tough nut to crack and that is they have not come up with a cheap version that would work even perfunctory work....which is the standard modus operandi of that industry....further proof is that we are still awaiting solid Yankee ingenuity with Sparkie and the Green BMS. Take care Mikie

Hey I dropped the scooter off and hopefully it will be done in the next week or so, I also asked them to put a new horn in as
with all the silence that comes with our ev it is imperative to have a horn to let people know we are headed their direction. The distance to the shop was 7 miles and the fuel gage stayed on full the whole way--there was no dipping of it on a hill. Lenny-- pay attention here: My speed was clocked at about 50mph in a small head wind and it remained steady, the 24 cells worked great the beginning temperature was (room) 54F degrees and the end temperature of the hub(passenger side) was about 90F degrees with an ambient temp of about 43F. All in all I would say that the extra 4 cells bring the needed amount of juice to the bike to get it up to a reasonable speed and there is a fair amount of power to do the minimum of what the bike was advertised to perform. I ordered a new 24 cell charger from elite and it will be here soon because the stock 20 cell charger will no longer work. So that is it guys, I will keep you informed when other developments come up....Best Mikie

Raw photo - not yet photoshopped.

Hey Andy thanks for the photo, I am selling mine this weekend because I really like the mirrors on this one. Isn't that the American way? M