Speculations on XM-5000Li

If anyone else has questions about this moped that you CAN'T find that have answered on this forum, send an email to me and I'll contact x-treme directly and ask them. Being a distributor, it's pretty easy to get an answer in a day or less. This is a new scooter on http://wattcycle.com and I'd like to make sure all the bases for questions are covered.

These are exciting times!!! Even though gas prices are low now, I'm actually looking forward to higher prices at the pump to force people around the world to start looking at other options besides oil. Notice how most people stopped thinking ahead once gas prices dropped back down to <$2.00/gal? Just long enough to sell some more Hummers and large SUV's.

I've got mad respect for everyone on this forum learning from and helping each other.

This info from the owner of X-Treme:

X-Treme will be selling a number of CES display bikes Sunday the 11th of Jan after the show. They include:

One Blue XM-5000Li
One Black XM-3500Li
XB-600, XB-508, XB-700Li, and XB-300Li.

The 5000Li will at least be discounted (I don't know how deeply). Each of the others is available at cost.

These are available for pickup at the end of CES. Trade show pack-out rules mean that the bikes can't leave the show floor until after 5pm Sunday.

Show passes may be available to access the floor before the end of the show. Otherwise, the floor should be open once pack-out/move-out starts around 5pm.

For more info, shoot me an email or PM and I'll forward your info to the owner and his crew at CES.

ahecker at rechargeablelithiumpower dot com
www.rechargeablelithiumpower.com
http://funwithlithium.blogspot.com

Hey Andy thanks for the photo, I am selling mine this weekend because I really like the mirrors on this one. Isn't that the American way? M

Don't do that, Mikie - finish your bike! I'll have my 5000Li late next week and we can compare notes.

Andy

Dealers,
Has there been any response from X-Treme on adding "engine" numbers?
Or, are they still ignoring this requirement for Registration?
Is CA the only state that requires an "engine" number?

Suggestion to dealers:
At least READ the "junk" that you copy from the X-Treme site.
The "size of size" shows that you cannot or did not read.
Same weight as the 3500li, No.
Did you not notice the picture appears to be a 3500?

Does anybody have a manual for the 5000li yet?
Is there a copy of the original machine-readable source document file?
Does such source even exist?
Where was the manual written?
By whom?
Or, perhaps a manual for the 3500li?
Anybody with either, please PM me.

Thanks, Gary

1. The X-Treme "description" states that one can get long battery life, with proper battery care.

2. The ThunderSky battery manual states that proper battery cell management (over- and under-voltage protection) is a MUST for good battery life.

3. Even with the new 5000li model, X-Treme still leaves this critcal "management" (which they know MUST be done) up to each user to deal with manually.

When will X-Treme realize that this "omission" automatically makes their "BMS-less" models "incomplete", no matter how many watts, cells, or colors are included.

Yep, not even the not-yet-announced color-change kit (a replacement set of plastic parts) can compensate for this very-important omission.

Being a distributor, it's pretty easy to get an answer in a day or less.

LMAO! The problem for dealers is not trying to get an answer quickly, but that those answers are either incorrect or lies; given to you by someone who has no idea what they're talking about, or just doesn't have a clue as to what's going on in their own company ("Greg" - owner of Alpha Products International, dba X-Treme Scooters).

I've been down that route on nearly every sale for the past 2 years. I know what I'm talking about when I say X-Treme's business practices are appalling and will always lead to disappointment for both the dropshipper (authorized dealer), as well as the dealers' customers. Unless you are lucky enough to get hit by lightning and actually receive the correct information and an undamaged item, I would suggest you neither waste your time nor hard earned money on any X-Treme product.

My number one bit of advice is to run away from API/X-Treme, and don't look back.

Being a distributor, it's pretty easy to get an answer in a day or less.

LMAO! The problem for dealers is not trying to get an answer quickly, but that those answers are either incorrect or lies; given to you by someone who has no idea what they're talking about, or just doesn't have a clue as to what's going on in their own company ("Greg" - owner of Alpha Products International, dba X-Treme Scooters).

That's a bit harsh. I've received several good bits of information from Gary in a timely fashion. Sometimes his information is incorrect because the person providing him the information didn't tell him a straight answer. I suspect that's one of the reasons that he switched factories and the XM-5000Li is coming from a different factory than the XM-3500Li.

I *always* try and work on the assumption that the information I'm receiving needs to be verified from at least a couple or reputable sources (or preferably seen with my own two eyes). That's why I've never sold an XM bike that I haven't bought one personally - an XM-2000, an XM-3000 and an XM-3500Li. (In fact I think I was the one who broke the news that there was no BMS on the XM-3500Li). If I wasn't doing my own bike and was going to stick with X-Treme then I'd buy an XM-5000Li as well. Is that "extreme", no, that's the cost of doing business. AF - how much time did you spend researching the products and educating yourself on them?

Dealers,
Has there been any response from X-Treme on adding "engine" numbers?
Or, are they still ignoring this requirement for Registration?
Is CA the only state that requires an "engine" number?

Gary - dealing with 48 different states rules is a nightmare and I would imagine not one that X-Treme is equipped to deal with very well. You might say they "should" do this but, AFAIK, they're not "required" to. This falls into the category of the unfortunate "early adopter" headaches surrounded with electric vehicles and the various government agencies and police departments nationwide.

We're not at a "Honda like" experience yet - and it will be a while before we get there. (But, you'll be glad to know that we plan on stamping our motors ;) )

Suggestion to dealers:
At least READ the "junk" that you copy from the X-Treme site.
The "size of size" shows that you cannot or did not read.
Same weight as the 3500li, No.
Did you not notice the picture appears to be a 3500?

Some of us do and some of us still get it wrong - I apologize. Although the picture is a 3500Li you'll also note that the only significant difference is the controller on the outside rather than the inside. Most folks looking at those web pages are probably more interested in the look of the bike than the position of the controller.

Does anybody have a manual for the 5000li yet?
Is there a copy of the original machine-readable source document file?
Does such source even exist?
Where was the manual written?
By whom?
Or, perhaps a manual for the 3500li?

The manual isn't particularly helpful or well written. Sorry. If you want a good manual for a bike you can buy now then I'd suggest looking at the Vectrix or a rEV when it's available this summer.

When will X-Treme realize that this "omission" automatically makes their "BMS-less" models "incomplete", no matter how many watts, cells, or colors are included.

X-Treme will likely realize that a BMS is a "de-facto must have" about the same time as some folks on this board will realize that "de-facto must have" is not the same as "must have" and definitely not the same as "incomplete".

Sorry for the sarcastic answer but, IMO, your sarcasm and apparent indignation at the lack of BMS is a little misplaced. Don't get me wrong I agree that a BMS is a "de-facto must have" (i.e. you'd be ill-advised not to fit one) but I do disagree that it's essential.

The XM-3500Li controller does have LVC and the TS charger has over voltage protection - the issue is that it's done at a pack level and not at the cell level. To avoid possible over voltage issues the charger is set with a lower target voltage than (the fully charged voltage per cell * cell count) and the bike's controller has a similarly conservative LVC value. So, as you can see they're taking a different approach to protecting the batteries - true this isn't as effective as a per-cell BMS.

Sorry, I intended no sarcasm at all.

Battery management at only the "pack" level (not the individual cell level) is usually only effective as long as all the cells are reasonably well matched, and the cells remain matched in charge.

The problems grow when there is a "rogue" cell (charged or discharged more than the other "average" cells) which the pack management cannot detect.

Note that there is ALWAYS at least one cell that is not exactly "average".

I guess it was the reference to colors that got me off on the sarcasm kick. Sorry 'bout that.

Yes, cell balancing is a VERY GOOD THING (99 out of 100 EV builders recommend it - including this one).

One thing folks tend to loose sight of though is why is pack balancing important? It's because there's a cycle that occurs that makes the problem grow (as you state) to the point where the cell gets out of operating range and is completely killed - once that domino falls then all the other cells can quickly become out of range because they're being charged too high and drained too low because of the one "missing cell".

So, what we're trying to achieve is preventing operating cells outside of their specified range.

For TS cells that's 2.5V to 4.25V per the manufacturer. LFP cells are more stable than lead acid and thus the growth of the problem is slower. To further mitigate the problem the charger has a peak voltage cut off a lot lower than 4.25*20 and the LVC on the controller is a lot higher than 2.5*20 - so the cells are constrained to well within their specified cycle. Furthermore, on an XM-3500Li (40Ah cells) and an XM-5000Li (60Ah) cells the cells will only see about 2C peak discharge rate (the manufacturer states 3C continuous and 10C pulsed).

On the other hand - a lot of lead acid bikes push the batteries harder and lead acid is less forgiving to start with. So on an SLA bike the omission of pack balancing can cause problems much, much sooner. We've all seen LOTS of stories from folks with the "I killed my SLA batteries after only X miles". However, how many "I killed my LFP batteries after only X miles" have we seen?

Now, I do agree that cell balancing is a very good thing - and our bike will have a per cell BMS for this very reason. My reason for writing is that I disagree with statements like "manufacturer X is selling a deficient product because a BMS is mandatory" - a lot of folks who take that stance will say "but I never said that". Fair enough. I'm just posting the other side of the argument for those "lurkers" who are following along to educate themselves before buying a bike (way to go to all you self-educating lurkers out there!).

All the best and happy riding!

It's almost time to put this 'speculations' thread to rest and start the "What is the XM-5000Li" really like threads. :-) I see garygid beat me to it - I look forward to reading about your bike!

We guessed about range earlier in the thread. According to the manual, the 'max range cruising speed' that gave 85 miles was about 25mph. The 60 mile range 'point' is supposed to be at about 45mph.

UPS says mine made it to Dallas last night and is scheduled for delivery later this afternoon (between 3pm and 8pm). I feel a picture-heavy unboxing thread starting to take shape. :-)

[edit 21 Jan] CRUD! I mixed up the tracking numbers. The bike delivered last Thursday was a friends's 3500. Ok, it was fun. And there were a lot of pictures, some of which you can find in another thread. But my 5000Li arrived in San Antonio 20 minutes ago. She'll be delivered later today (Thursday). [/edit]

[edit 23 Jan] OK! Out for delivery! Life is Good! [/edit]

I plan on putting some closely-monitored cycles on the battery without a BMS to get some real-world speeds and ranges. Then fit a proper BMS and repeat the process for some before/after data.

Let the fun begin!

Andy

I stand by my statement.
In my opinion, any "non-toy" electric vehicle
needs a cell-by-cell BMS and LVC to be "complete".

My XM-5000Li should be delivered within the next two hours.

Hello all. I'm another faceless long time lurker, and I would like to thank all of you that contribute to the forum for taking of your time to share you experiences and insights.

I'm curious about the new XM-5000Li; Seems to be an XM-3500Li with an extra 3.3V cell and perhaps a re-wound hub motor. A tough sell for an additional $2000--especially with the Vectrix as an established competitor in that price range. Furthermore, and additional 15MPH for just 3.3V seems ridiculous unless the motor has so few wraps as to make the low rpm torque nonexistant.

Thoughts?

Ben
------------
n/a

Ben,

I unpacked my 5000 last night and took it for a quick ride. This is absolutely not a 3500 with an extra battery! I wouldn't have believed the difference if I didn't have fresh experience with the 3500 before looking this bike over and taking a quick spin. The closest comparison I have right now is that, power wise, it's like moving from a 125cc to a 250cc bike, or a 1.5liter four cylinder car to a 3liter 6 in a car. Yes - it's heavier - but man does it move! Then I found the 'speed switch' - and took it for a quick run with the speed set on 'high'. :jawdrop: This is going to be fun!

I'll be able to present a full side-by-side comparison after I finish inspecting the bike and checking it out.

Andy

As far as a BMS, a suitable do-it-yourself BMS in kit form is available here:

http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=26

I believe this particular BMS has been discussed in another form, but I can't recall where.

That's the one I'm working on. It still needs four resisters that just came off backorder at Mouser. And just a little bit of wiring...

It'll be a bit more 'fun' to get to the wiring on the 5000 - there's a lot of lithium packed in there!

Andy

It also looks like it will be challenging to find a place to mount the board where you can see the indicator LED's, and also be in a ventilated space. The resistors and adjacent transistors get hot. The method I used with an earlier version board won't work:

BTW, I strongly recommend using a connector - 22 pin in your case - to connect the terminals of each cell to the BMS. Besides making servicing the thing easier, it also prevents connection mistakes that will instantly burn out components on the board. The pack-side connector is easily checked for crossed wires with a voltmeter before connecting it to the BMS. Of course check, and double check, the BMS side connector connections for correct order too.

PJD - I remember reading your posts about your BMS install - excellent!

The V2.2 board is long, no doubt. Plan 'version 0.2' is to mount the board under the charge port door. The door stays open during charging and there's plenty of air flow so hopefully it will cool enough while the TS60s balance. I plan to leave the board installed, so went with the Molex like you have in your pictures. It looks like it'll be a multi-afternoon project just disassembling the pack and running wires. Boy…I can’t wait to do THAT. ;)

Once the BMS is on-line, I’ll have to look for a power supply. The TS 60V15A charger shipped with the 5000 is set for 75V – 3.57V per cell. We’ll have to jump to 78.2 to get 3.7V per cell plus the 1/2 volt the BMS will use. If we can’t mod the charger, it might mean using the TS charger until it shuts down, then finishing thru the BMS with my 5A Mastech.

Yes, it seems that the available charger voltages are set just a bit too low. Actually, if you can get it to 3.70-3.73 volts per cell it should work fine (that's what my e-max blue-box chargers are running at). The extra half volt was just a "safety factor" that Gary and Richard thought might be necessary.

One suggestion I heard to raise teh chaging voltage is to have your charger power a fully isolated 3 volt (or so) dc-dc converter, with the converter output in series with one of the chargers lead, so an extra 3 volts is added to the chargers output. The DC-DC converter is very compact and can be taped or shrink-tubed so it is just a bump on the charger cord. I wouldn't have thought this would work, but the advice came from a very competent EE on the endless sphere forum here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3345&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=New+BMS+16+cell+Battery+Management+System+16+cel...

Go halfway down page 12.

Do an e-bay search for such a converter.

Brilliant! Thanks PJD!

Man...we need a custom Google search function just for those two BMS threads!

We have a custom search function. Look at the top right of your screen.

Grandpa Chas S.

We have a custom search function. Look at the top right of your screen.

Grandpa Chas S.

'We here' sure do - thank you! I'm sorry - I ment the 'We' at E-S and the two BMS design/build threads.

The DC-DC converter that Bob suggested in the ES forum is available here:

http://tinyurl.com/bmrmoe

Your charger may be a bit over the specified 72 max input volts, but it will probably work.