A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

12 posts / 0 new
Last post
jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

Hi All,

Here's a quick comparison of road legal electric motorcycles on the market in the USA as of February 2009. This list is limited to bikes with a top speed "out the box" of at least 50mph. All of them, except the GPRS, are considered "maxi-scooters" - the GPRS is a sports bike.

Bike MSRP (USD) Range (Miles) Speed Batteries Manufactured in
Vectrix VX-1 10495 35 - 55 62 NiMH / 3.7kWh Poland
Vectrix VX-1E 8495 20 - 30 50 SLA / 3.1kWh Poland
Electric Motorsport GPRS 8500 35 - 60 60 LFP / 3.3kWh Thailand
X-Treme XM-5000 5999 40 - 70 60 LFP / 4kWh China
R Martin EVD 4999 40 - 60 55 LFP / 4kWh China

Our bike will be shipping to customers in June 2009. Here are the specs:

Bike MSRP (USD) Range (Miles) Speed Batteries Manufactured in
REV-1 6499 50 - 80 55 - 60 LFP / 4.6kWh USA

Fun times ahead!

reikiman
reikiman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
Joined: Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 17:52
Points: 8447
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

I talked at length with Todd @ Electric Motorsports last summer, and he was very clear that the GPR-S is manufactured in Thailand (or maybe Malaysia) at a former Kawasaki plant. I dunno if the full production is still being done there, as of last September they were doing some assembly in Oakland.

When you say REV-1 manufactured in USA .. are you meaning 'assembled' or 'all parts' or 'most parts'? Reading between the lines of an earlier post from you, it implied your belief is it's good business for a maker such as yourself to OEM a frame from some frame maker. That led me to believe you're getting a frame from somewhere like China and adding electronics of your own design.

dshupp
Offline
Last seen: 13 years 7 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 - 13:27
Points: 29
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

The FTC has guidelines on the 'Made in the USA' and the other claims.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm

David

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

Hi David - sorry for the mistake. Could you please correct my original post and replace Taiwan with Thailand? Or, if you contact Todd you can see if he wants to make a case for made in the USA.

Short answer - final assembly of a working vehicle occurs in the USA. This is the definition that is used when applying for a WMI (World Manufacturer Indicator - the digits that identify us in the VIN). Hence, our VIN is issued by the SAE in the USA and identifies us as an American manufacturer. You can search for our WMI and appropriate filings in the NHTSA database: http://204.68.195.250/cars/rules/manufacture/ and enter "Electric Vehicle Manufacturing" as the manufacturer name - note that is the name of the manufacture, REVolution Electric Vehicles is the name of the brand).

Longer answer - Yes, we do get our frames from a major vendor in China. We source parts based first and foremost on their suitability for our requirements. For example, we carefully chose the frame based on acquiring one that is large enough for us - and is well designed in terms of handling the various loads and stresses for a motorcycle. Of course, we also want a bike that looks good and will be great for a customer to own.

In the US we have designed our own swing arm and our own battery box. We also modify the frame - strengthening it for EV purposes and adding new rear swing arm connection points to improve the geometry. We then install the new swing arm and battery box and add the high power and low power wiring. All this work is done in the USA - both R&D and production.

Most importantly (from the consumer's point of view):
(a) we do the final QC here in the USA
(b) should there prove to be any problems and updates required we do all the engineering as well as all the production in the USA
(c) EVMFG (our company) carries the product liability insurance for the REV-1
(d) the customer has far more access to us the engineers and producers of the bike
(e) EVMFG has full access to all required spares for the bikes - you can build a bike from the ground up with spare parts from a warehouse in the USA. That's for everything except the frame - but generally speaking by the time you need to replace a frame you're looking at needing a whole new bike.

So, although we source components globally we're proud of the fact that the REV-1 is manufactured in the USA.

Does that answer your question? If you want more info just let me know.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

The FTC has guidelines on the 'Made in the USA' and the other claims.

FTC Guidelines for Made in USA

David

David, thanks for that link. We aren't looking to mislead people but we do want them to know that there are significant differences in our process than say, X-Treme's or R Martin's. We believe in those differences and that they make a positive significant difference to the consumer.

For example, if Todd's EMS GPRS has final assembly here in the USA then he may be able to offer his customers the same sort of advantages as we can. After selling X-Treme bikes for 18 months or so I can confidently tell you that you won't get that same sort of support with their business model. (I'm not "bashing" X-Treme - it's just a different approach).

Rest assured we'll be looking into how to best publicize that fact without running afoul of consumer laws.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

BretA
Offline
Last seen: 14 years 5 months ago
Joined: Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 21:31
Points: 9
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

As a confirmation. GPR-S main components are coming in from Tiger Motorsports in Thailand. It is a joint venture between Tiger and Electric Motorsports.
I don't think you can call it any less USA made than any other out there. It's kind of a poor jab since nearly anyhing with any complexity is not sole sourced 100% USA these days.
I look forward to seeing what the REV-1 finally comes out to in the real world use.
I would expect based on your previous posts that a 60ah battery is going to give a longer range than a 50ah battery. That being said, I think your price point looks interesting.
I look forward to the day when we could get side by side comparisons and judge by how these bikes handle, unfortunately mine is not a stock GPR-S.

BretA

reikiman
reikiman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
Joined: Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 17:52
Points: 8447
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

Could you please correct my original post and replace Taiwan with Thailand?

Sure.. I also made sure to keep the old revision alive, if you see a 'Revisions' tab at the top of the page you can browse any edits that are done. If you need any further updates to the table let me know.

There's an interesting contrast here with the Zuumer (made by Zuumcraft). I talked at length with the Zuumcraft folk last summer as well. To remind you it's a really interesting looking three wheel standup scooter, and I expect to be receiving mine sometime in March. Anyway their original plan was to source parts from wherever and to assemble them in the U.S. Their intent was to have final QC control based in the U.S. They explained to me that until they felt confident with the China manufacturer they wanted direct QC control, and that eventually if / when they felt comfortable with their China manufacturer they would give them QC control and be shipping completed scooters direct from China.

What they told me a couple weeks ago is things have progressed considerably and they're now doing full manufacturing and QC in China.

Hm, there are obvious tradeoff's .. such as all sorts of stories where offshore manufacturers cannot be trusted, requiring local QC control. Or the ability to put a "Made in U.S.A." sticker on the widget is important in some strategic sense. And for a product that's supposed to help us all be green(er) does it make sense to build the thing in China, ship it across the world, spewing out megatons of carbon footprint along the way? That versus the obviously lower price point you can have with offshored production. And for that matter how much of our economic crisis is due to offshored production? ..etc..

MikeB
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Monday, April 14, 2008 - 09:49
Points: 517
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

Those numbers are looking pretty good John.

A question on range: I was expecting your REV 1 to get about the same range as my EVD, the increase in battery count (21 -> 24) would be balanced out by the increased maximum motor demand (3kW -> 5kW). But you're showing roughly a 25% increase at the low end (40 -> 50). Are you counting on regeneration to help this? Higher efficiency somewhere? Or just a 'fuel' gauge that actually lets you drive until you're empty, as opposed to guessing?

I've got a co-worker with a 30-mile daily commute, but he is worried that a bike with a 40 mile range is probably not sufficient, given things like unexpected traffic, cold weather, and battery aging. However, I might be able to sell him on the idea of a bike with a 50 mile range, since it'll have a little more safety margin.

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

BretA
Offline
Last seen: 14 years 5 months ago
Joined: Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 21:31
Points: 9
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

And for a product that's supposed to help us all be green(er) does it make sense to build the thing in China, ship it across the world, spewing out megatons of carbon footprint along the way? That versus the obviously lower price point you can have with offshored production. And for that matter how much of our economic crisis is due to offshored production? ..etc..

It's not just an EV statement, If you have the right controls in place in those foreign manufacturing companies, then QC can be good, however, once the competition starts and the margin's thin, I have always observed that despite the best intentions, $$ and quantity always buck QC controls despite best intentions. The pressure to make a dollar on the 31st is greater than the pressure to do it right on the 1st.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

Mike -

a) We don't expect regen to help much with range - it's more to do with braking feel.
b) Efficiencies will be different - difficult to say because I don't have an EVD to play with. However, the bikes will weigh about the same and have similar aerodynamics. Thus, they will take approximately the same power to accelerate and to push along at equivalent speeds. Thus, given the same drive test the REV-1 should be at least 3/21 better (about 14% or 45 miles)
c) With a per-cell BMS we will be able to get more useful work out of the batteries by charging them fuller and draining them to either 80% or 90% DOD without risk of a single cell being damaged (because it has fallen further). This should account for slightly more range as well.

A side by side ride would be a great way to test this. We should be like the Energizer Bunny and just keep going...

Your co-worker has the right attitude. I never recommend someone with a need for a 30-mile range use a bike with a 30-mile range. A 50 mile range for a 30 mile commute should be very feasible.

As always if you (or anyone else) wants to come to Ann Arbor and check us out your most welcome.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jdh2550_1
jdh2550_1's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 8 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 09:35
Points: 2335
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

BretA,

If GPR-S is a joint venture between Tiger (a big foreign manufacturer) and Electric Motorsports (a small US operation) - then it is quite different from our setup. We're not a joint venture with anyone (but yes, we are small). I'm not sure, but were you saying that by bringing up the "Manufactured In" column it was an attempt at a jab at the GPR-S? It wasn't really meant to be a jab - it was more about differentiating ourselves from the competition - because some folks like the idea of a domestic manufacturer. As I said in my response to David - if Todd's company is doing the final assembly here and it's Todd's company who carries the product liability then I think it's reasonable to consider them a domestic manufacturer (and so does the DOT). In fact I just searched on the NHTSA site and see that Electric Motorsport has a low volume US WMI just like we do. Thus, DOT thinks we're both valid US operations (which we both are!)

Does parts content make us clearly "Made in the USA" worthy? No it does not and thus we likely won't be able to satisfy the FTC. But I still maintain that the list of benefits I gave in answer to dshupps post are real and worthwhile to the consumer. If it makes people feel happier - consider that last column to read "final assembly" and update the GPR-S line to be USA (if in fact that's the case).

Again, we're not out to try and mislead anyone. We are out to differentiate our product with worthwhile benefits to the customer. At the end of the day if our product isn't good folks won't buy it and we will fail. We don't plan on failing.

David H,

We have no plans to shift the final assembly and QC to China. Will we ever do that? I don't know. If we need to build several thousands of these a year then maybe. But, at the moment we're forecasting an order of magnitude smaller than that and we can respond more nimbly with a small, local workforce. How best to build several thousand bikes a year will sure be a nice problem to have to wrestle with! But it's not one I feel the need to grapple with right now...

Enjoy your EV rides! (David on his Zuumer and BretA on his GPR-S)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

dshupp
Offline
Last seen: 13 years 7 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 - 13:27
Points: 29
Re: A quick comparison of available electric motorcycles

John,

I'm glad to see you are manufacturing the bike in the USA, and I think you do have better customer service if the factory is here. I was not suggesting you are being misleading -- I just thought the link was informative. You are adding the electronics and swing arm, so it may qualify for 'Made in the USA of domestic and foreign parts.' I'm looking forward to seeing the bike and the web site.

Thanks,

David S.

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • eric01
  • Norberto
  • sarim
  • Edd
  • OlaOst

Support V is for Voltage