Hi,
Well I've been dropping a few hints on the forum lately about the bike that I and my business partners are currently working on. Things are progressing well - we are doing the design and engineering here in the USA. We will also be assembling here in the US. All of the key players in the company so far are motorcyclists so we know 2 wheel transportation very well. We also have good experience in the electronics and EV field. One of our current team members was building VW Rabbits in the 80's (about 200 were sold) - they were the only crash tested EV's on the road at the time. Another team member has run a successful electronics business for around 10 years.
Although there is still a LONG WAY to go before we finish we wanted to let you know a little bit about what we're working on. There are more choices for "maxi-scooter" sized electric bikes coming onto the market - which is a good thing. In essence our bike should be "better" than the current Chinese imports but cost about the same. It will be less expensive than a Vectrix but should compare well for features and performance.
Here are some "specs" - but remember this is all subject to change:
| NAME: | rEV 1 or rEV Maxi |
| MOTOR: | a hub motor in the 4.5kW to 6kW range |
| CONTROLLER: | a programmable controller (subject to warranty restrictions) |
| BATTERIES: | 24X60Ah LFP batteries (possibly other combinations as well) |
| SPEED: | At least 50+mph two up on the flat, possibly 55+ |
| ACCELERATION | acceleration will be "brisk" (i.e. we won't sacrifice acceleration for an attention grabbing higher top speed) |
| RANGE: | TBD |
| REGEN BRAKES: | possibly, if so likely to be proportionally controlled via rear brake lever |
| REVERSE: | possibly a single speed reverse (press a button and inch backwards to help with maneuvering or backing uphill) |
| BMS: | a custom designed BMS which will balance individual cells and operate on both the charge and discharge cycles |
| CHARGER: | possibly a smart on board charger that interfaces with the BMS - otherwise stanard off-board charger |
| INSTRUMENTS: | accurate speedo (!) plus a smart fuel gauge (instead of a simple (and not very useful) volt meter) |
| STYLE/FRAME: | a scooter that has a lower seat height and better ergonomics but larger, sturdier frame with more storage than the XM and EVD models |
| QUALITY: | made in the USA - final assembly and final quality assurance in the USA (will come with a North American VIN number - we have our WMI issued to us by the SAE) |
| SAFETY: | FMVSS certification will be performed in the USA by a DOT/NHTSA approved facility |
| PRICE: | TBD - but will be competitive with current competition and the battery pack is greater than 4kWh so the bike should qualify for a $2000 tax rebate |
| AVAILABILITY: | TBD - no promises yet - but as early in the 2009 riding season as we can possibly manage! We will be building these bikes in batches of 30. |
I encourage you to feel free to comment on the specs above and tell us what you like and don't like. Also, let us know if you have any "must have" ideas - I don't know if we can incorporate them or not - but there may be some stuff we can do (we won't know if you don't tell us!)
Current status: this is definitely NOT just a paper exercise. We have many hours and many of our own dollars invested at this point. All our feasability and supply choices have been addressed. Next big hurdle is FMVSS certification. When we get that (won't be until at least February or March of 2009) - then it's all systems go!
If you do nothing else please wish us luck!
Happy riding!
John H.
p.s. in case you're rolling your eyes and thinking "great, another promise of the perfect bike coming 'real soon now'" - I apologize, I know how you feel and part of me wanted to avoid such an early announcement. However, the part that's really excited about what we're doing won me over ;)
:) John , I am glad to here that you are in the middle of your new maxi scooter !! I will be looking forward to hearing from you about our talks about the vk2008 I still have and am holding for you so I can trade up !! will this new byke have a lighter outlet for acceseries mp3s radios and such?? LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
I know it may sound backward to you but it would be nice to see a lead battery version of your scooter. It would help with a lower initial cost model and for some people range is not that important but they still want performance. My electric car has lead Silicone Batteries and it works greet even going down the freeway at 70 mph. I have two things in my electric car that I would miss on a scooter, maybe you could incorporate them in your scooter. I have a temperature compensated charger which really helps keep the battery from being damaged from overcharge during high temperature charging, like during full sunlight on a hot day. No scooters has this feature but almost all electric cars do. Also regen braking are helpful in extending the range and saves the brakes. A big problem with regen brakes I find is they don't work when the batteries are full as there is no way to put power in a full battery.
Eric Fisher
www.SiliconeBatteriesUSA.com
a temperature compensated charger is only needed for lead acid, or other chemistries that have secondary reactions in the course of normal operation.
Lithium batteries dont suffer from this.
how much cheaper would a lead acid option make the scooter?
would the market for a shorter range version be big enough?
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Hi guys - thanks for the comments so far.
Strawhistle - yep we've got you covered! :)
Accessory plug - An accessory plug will be included if our DC/DC solution has enough spare overhead to make it worthwhile.
About batteries - I very much doubt we will do a lead acid version. However, we might do a 24x40Ah LFP version for a lower cost model. I suppose another possibility would be a "no battery at all" solution and let folks fit their own batteries - this would require a different sort of warranty but it might be doable.
Would folks be interested in:
1) a 40Ah version rather than a 60Ah version?
2) a no battery version so you could add your own voltage source? (if you have a Mr Fusion sitting around that would be neat!)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Ohh, sweet. John, you are just trying to make me regret my recent EVD purchase, or sell it quickly, aren't you? ;)
I'd think you would do well with 2 battery choices, one for people who need extra range, and one for people who don't. Personally, I could get by with shorter range as long as the speed was still good. The 'no battery' choice also isn't bad, but that'll keep people from claiming the fed tax credit, so it might not make economic sense on either side.
45mph roads requires 50+mph, 55-60 would probably be ideal. I'd think that a bigger motor would be better, most of your buyers are gonna realize the trade off between speed and range.
As you might have guessed from the 'Better Lighting' thread, I think lighting is an important consideration on a bike. I'd like to request a pair of 55w headlights, not 35w ones (or crappy 18W ones). Ideally, a single HID Projector would give you more than enough light using only 35w of power, but that brings the cost up fast. I'd also like to see a little bit of expansion room on the DC/DC converter, so we could add driving lights on the forks, or something similar.
I don't know if you've got a body picked out yet, but it'd be nice to have one that supports a large windshield.
One of the better maxi-scooters out there right now is the 250cc Honda Reflex. I moved to a bigger scooter so I could ride interstates, but the Reflex body would be a good model for an electric commuter.
I know it'll be difficult given the large number of batteries, but try to keep the dry weight below about 350lbs, that's the point where the bike will start feeling heavier, more like a motorcycle than a scooter.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Hi Mikie - yeah, I'm just doing this to make you and Lenny sad (Lenny will be really mad - he bought his bike from me...). Seriously though, I'm still telling folks to buy a real, existing bike if they want to ride now - there's no telling what curve balls will be thrown at us and what the final release will be.
We do have a body chosen (with a good windscreen) and we're planning on using its lighting - we may choose to upgrade the bulbs to a higher wattage, but we're not going to want to change to a different unit or lens because that will add a whole lot of time and complexity. We'd rather get the bike out there with expansion room on the DC/DC converter and let folks upgrade lights as they see fit. In a future model we might do more with LEDs etc. But that's not likely this time around.
We're hoping that the weight will come in around 300 to 350 lbs with the 24x60Ah pack - smaller batteries will of course shave some weight off. If one were to fit SLAs the weight would go way up.
EDIT: Oops I confused Mikie (an XM-3500 owner) and MikeB (an EVD owner) - sorry about that!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Excellent. If you use standard automotive bulbs & fixtures, then it's easy enough for someone like me to upgrade the bulbs themselves. You can spend a few extra $$ and get H7 or H4 bulbs that produce 80% more light than a stock headlight (staying at stock wattage even), which is well worth the effort. (Philips X-treme Power bulbs)
Oh, one more thought: both my Honda scooters have a parking brake, to keep them from rolling when parked on a slope. Motorcycles don't usually need them, since they just get put into gear, but a CVT doesn't allow that. Does your body have a parking brake?
Dang, now I'm excited. My EVD is nice, but there's a number of little things that could be much better, and you appear to have most of them already identified. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help on this. If you want some test riding done before the snow melts up there, I'd be happy to assist. :)
Edit: Just to add to your oops risk, we also have a Mik who is a Vectrix guy....
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
I'm hoppin' mad, John!!!
Ok, not really. You actually mentioned this possibility way back when, but I really wanted to get onto something (and I'm enjoying the heck out of it despite some of the drawbacks I've had!) Still, depending on what you come up with I may have to see about selling my 3500 to someone else and getting yours instead. ;)
As for things I'd like to see, most of them are in my thread, and some may well not be worth dealing with on a pre-assembled body, like better shocks. (Roads are bad here and even though they have loosened up a little with use, the shocks still give a pretty jarring ride at times.) But grips that have something to actually grip on would be nice (I finally got some and will report on that later), body panels that fit better and are easier to dissasemble, or at least don't make it too hard to get to things like the headlights and such. It would be really nice is they were not made of plastic, but that could be an issue for prices (and again on the pre-assembled bike). Other folks have mentioned lighting and you've already looked at guages and BMS. I'd really push for the internal charger if you can work that out as well. I'd also agree on the Accessory port if you can fit it in.
I can't think of much else right now, but I'll post later if I do. Sounds like good stuff so far!
Of course if you want to throw all of that stuff together as a "kit" to fit into whatever frame we might be working with, that might be a cool option as well. Maybe upgrading my XM-3500Li with all your good stuff would be the way to go, anyway. ;)
Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA
Alas! I have just received a definitive answer that for tax purposes "a qualifying electric motor vehicle must have at least 4 wheels". So, none of the electric scooters will qualify for a tax rebate. Start writing to your Congress and Senate representatives...
(BTW, this might have been discussed and answered elsewhere on these forums - if so sorry for the duplication - I just received my answer from an accountant with access to the applicable tax codes)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I wish you the best of luck.
I see you are dealers already. Chalk up points for that.
Your new addition sounds great. Not freeway capable but closer than anything seen thus far. (Tho I can't deny our local guys Electric Motorsport have a nice offering that is good, it is about $8K) I'm not keen on the body style but could get used to it. Below are must have features in my opinion.
1.)Good brakes and solid tires and shocks etc. looks like you have this (bigger diam and cast wheels a plus)
2.)Responsive It should pull strong but have no spikes as one rolls on the throttle
3.)Regen braking Sounds like you want to offer this but are unsure.
4.)Instrumentation I'm a nut for battery data but all could use this (Drain Brain user)
5.)Rebate? That EV rebate sounds too good to be true could be a big help, work on that
6.)LFP Battery I think you have this planned with smart charge and BMS
I have a K75 BMW which I would never be able to replace because I can get on it and ride from my house in Richmond Ca to Reno 200 mi and 7000' mountain in 3+ hours for < $10 fuel, but I almost never ride to work (15 mi RT) or around town because I ride my bike. My bike has a BIONX assist package (PL350) and has over 6000 miles in 2.5 years.
So I'm a potential customer. Your new bike sounds like it hits most all of the needs of my hit list so I will keep an eye on it.
Got Amps?
Thanks - I appreciate that.
Yeah, we'd certainly love to get to a freeway capable speed - but at the moment that's just beyond our reach at the price point and range we want.
Yep for 1, 2 & 3 (we're all motorcycle riders so that helps with the real world riding testing). We will have regen - but I'll ask you "why do you want it?"
Is the Drain Brain the same thing as the Cycle Analyst? Our first production model will have a proper state of charge meter - rather than the simple volt meter that a lot of bikes try and get away with using. It will be implemented as an Ah counter corrected for Peukert's effect for the cells we're using. It will use the existing analog gauge to show SOC info. For future bikes (and as an upgrade for existing models) we will likely add various forms of a "digital dashboard" - the simplest would be a multi-line character based display and the fanciest would be a large color graphical display. When we introduce that upgrade we will be able to display speed, distance, pack temperature, Ah usage (over life of vehicle), kWh usage, average Wpm, individual cell voltages (it will interface to our BMS). We also plan to use it to implement a "meta controller" (the Cycle Analyst is a meta controller (i.e. a controller that controls the controller)).
In summary we will have a smart fuel gauge on the first bikes and an "all the data a battery nut could wish for" display available later (as an optional upgrade).
Alas, it is too good to be true. It's for four wheel vehicles only - write your congressman and senator.
Yep.
Two nice rides - that's a lot of miles on a bike (assist or not!) - I hope you have a comfy saddle! Alas, it will be a while before we can offer you a 200 mile @ 70mph uphill! But, I hope that one day we will :)
Thanks for taking the time to post. If anything else comes to mind please post it.
Now, tell me a again... Why do you want regen? ;)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
OK I have a little suggestion.
I use the PakTrakr for batt information. But they have a crappy logger. I have installed a sparkfun logomatic with it so that data gets recorded on an SD card while i bike that I can upload later. but those of us who are really interested in more than SOC are probably interested in using that data elsewhere.
OK, yeah, I know it doesnt go in the basic one, but for the future one, showing battery data is not as good as recording that data.
Further, by BMS may I assume you are talking about a battery equalizer or charge equalizer so that a battery doesnt crap out prematurely? I hope so. To me, I dont think electric scooters can be taken seriously as a real product unless these are installed. Its insane that xtreme doesn't put these on their XM bikes.
Edited by moderator to correct broken link.
im afraid your link didnt work TechSkeptic.
im interested in it, as i have a paktrakr on my emax keeping an eye on my lithiums.
btw, if you are going to permanently mount a paktrakr permanently to a lithium pack, battery balancing is absolutely necessary as the paktrakr pulls the pack out of balance by 0.25AH/day.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Thanks for the suggestion about logging. Yes, one of the "fancier" versions should include logging - whether we do that by integrating the SD card logic ourselves or suggesting folks buy a $60 logomatic from sparkfun and just provide a serial stream remains to be seen. We're likely to want a serial stream of data for folks who want to integrate it to whatever they might choose. If we did the SD card ourselves then we might just provide TTL level rather than a full RS232 solution.
I'd like to put the SD card option in place - as that also has the advantage of making offline updating of configuration easier (i.e. rather than either having to hook a PC to configure the meter or trying to implement a nice UI to allow in place configuration changes one could provide a PC based configuration manager that would copy the config file to the SD card - the meter would then read it's config from there.)
AFAIK SD cards use a pretty simple serial based protocol for reading and writing so adding our own SD card management shouldn't be too painful. Good idea - thanks!
Yes - by BMS I do mean individual LFP cell balancing.
No - we won't be attaching a PakTrakr or a Cycle Analyst. Any PakTrakr like functionality will come via integrating our BMS and our "digital dash" (which I will now lobby to include an SD card reader/writer).
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
strange. I had no problem with the link. But good point on the need for balancing, adding the logger doesnt help!
"If we did the SD card ourselves then we might just provide TTL level rather than a full RS232 solution"
this is why the paktrakr/logomatic is a good combo. The paktrakr puts out a 0-3V serial bit stream, and the logomatic works off of that. No level inversion or gain required. Of course you have to keep the two very close to each other.
Any PakTrakr like functionality will come via integrating our BMS and our "digital dash"
excellent! Do you need a designer?
-20 year of embedded control and digital design experience
-8 years in fuel cell and battery industry
:)
i think someone fixed the link before you checked it again.
it initially pointed to http:///
thanks
btw, how did you connect the logger to the paktrakr?
did you modify the original serial cable somehow?
or did you use one of those usb-serial adapters?
thanks,
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
I'm most interested in good acceleration, 55MPH top speed, and a higher windshield than the XM-3500. An on-board charger would be convenient too in case my destination is at the end of my range. Good luck John.
David
We're probably as strong in the embedded and digital design area - however "8 years in fuel cell and battery industry" is very interesting! :) We should talk - send me email at john [at] evmfg.com if you want to explore becoming involved in some way (I have a project in mind that you might be able to help us with and that might interest you)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
A little advise from a guy who´s been importing electric scooters/mopeds since 1992.
When you try out the different hubmotors, try to simulate every possible scenario, heavy rain, heavy load etc.
Stall the motors and measure temperatures, currents and so on.
I would even try to dip the whole motor in water and afterwords take it apart and check for water leakage.
Quality might differ alot between different manufacturers and this is more important than performance in my view..
Good luck!
Johnny
Sweden
Thanks Johnny - we certainly plan on quite a few "torture test" as well as dismantling motors. I'm sure we'll let the magic smoke out of a few before we're done.
Again, thanks for the post - it's appreciated!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John, since we're still adding to the wish list, I've got another thought.
You've probably already thought of this, but here's an annoying behavior from my EVD: I get a low voltage warning from the dash when riding in cold weather. The electronics were clearly calibrated for warm weather, but I'm willing to do my short commute when it's in the upper 20s (and dry). I'd like to see your new bike be able to show accurate information when the batteries are near freezing, and battery capacity and voltage are reduced.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
hi antiscab!
I did have to make a special funny cable, actually a board. But I did not buy their serial cable. I knew that if they have a cable, it is just a level converter so you can use it with a PC. So the actual, uninverted Tx line is available in the LCD module. I had some vector board around (from digikey) and i bought the same connectors they use on the paktrakr. I then 'stole' the serial line from the connector and routed the power, the ground and the Tx to the logomatic directly, no level conversion. In order fo that to work, the logomatic should be mounted near the paktrakr.
Does this make sense? If you need more than that, I can send you some pics if you email me at techskeptic [at] gmail.com
so how are things going?
Any website or pictures yet?
"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment
hi john h
i hope you read some of the blogs on this site ?? well some times .i do hope you read the ev biker build off its called england v america
but obviously outher countries are possivatley welcome and Australia you no who you are hehe ...
let me no john what you think
you new scooter could be superceded you will have to get up early in the morning to catch england out as we will work in shifts throw the night to beat the world with this fantastic all new scooter that we will build .
kev
hi john what the difference 20ah and 40ah i know 40ah throws out more amps per hour but and weight and little heaver but the overliying question
what range do we require ..well 150 miles its that simple we have the tecnology but we dont utilise all the wasted energy around the scooter
its all wasted lets get it channeled 1 solar. 2 wind. wasted heat wel some how on a cold morning that needs to be diverted to the rider.
4 and of corse regen. 5 batteries that can accept all of the regen and none wasted so super quick chargable batteries.
thats it for now kev
Hi turok,
I'm working on the website right now - I hope to have it launched by the end of this week (or else I will have to fire myself for being late, again...) When the website launches there will be pictures, specs and the chance to place a reservation (although, you just bought a Vectrix, right?).
All is going well with the development - we're still looking good for a June launch... (Yes, June this year!)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Hi Kev,
Being as I'm from the UK originally can I enter on both sides of the pond? ;-)
To be honest, the idea of your competition doesn't interest me all that much at the moment. Too busy trying to get the bike out as it is. Also, I'm not sure how well your competition would fare against the other competitions out there. Good luck - and if you develop the idea further then keep us all posted - at some later point in time we might be interested in playing along...
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Yes.. but I'm just curious and wish you all the best!
One of the main reasons (believe it or not) I bought (ordered :-( ) an EV is just because I believe in this technology, and I want to support it in my own way.
I am SURE that in 10 years every major brand will have an EV in their gamma, and we will be able to say we were before everyone (I don't no anyone else around me who even considers buying one)
I will also try to "convert" everyone I know. The final goal is no more pollution.
So every buyer is one less problem, and every producer is one more solution.
so GO John GO! Good luck!
"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment
I'd like to comment this one..
I believe efficiency is the future, and regenerative braking is part of that.
It's crazy how much energy is lost to friction while braking the old way(exactly as much energy as we need to get a vehicle to the speed you want to stop it at!)
Regen braking will also become more efficient over time, so we must give it a chance to evolve.
"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment
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