Xtreme Scooters XM-4000li -- anybody seen one?

Should be same as the 3500Li, just a different motor.
I have one of these motors and will mount it on my 3500 during next week.
I´ll give you the speed results...

I understand that the 4000 is most similar to the 5000li, not the original (2008) 3500li.

Like the 5000li, but with one less battery cell (20), and a different controller and motor.
Also the cells might be 40 Ah instead of 60 Ah.

Thus, the 4000 is likely to be a big step forward in quality, compared to the "old" 3500.

JJ,
If you got your 4000-watt motor from the "old" 3500 factory, you might not have the "same" motor.

3500, 4000, 5000 and the new "Thunder" are all made in the same factory.
As I understand it the 3500 will be "phased out" and be replaced by the 4000.
I visited the factory a few weeks ago.

Gary - I think the "old 3500" was made at factory A (Mountain Chen's). I think the new bikes (as well as a new 3500) are made at factory B (Amoyee Chen / EFun). As Johnny mentions I think the 3500 is being phased out. I believe the new 4000 is built by EFun and thus more like a 5000 than the "old" / "original" 3500.

Johnny - which Chen did you visit? Mountain or Amoyee?

As clear as mud, right?

I visited Mountain Chen.
At the end of last summer he moved their production from Shanghai to Xiamen, the early 3500´s were made in Shanghai.
The 3500, 4000, 5000 and Thunder are all made in the new factory.
The new plastics (nice fit) and other parts makes the 3500-5000 almost the same bikes except for motors, controllers and batteries.
The 5000 Watt motors will also be replaced by a different design, similar to the 3500-4000 motors, the larger circumference might eliminate the temperature problems some presently have on their 5000´s...

A new, improved 5000 watt motor?

I will open a ticket to try and get my 5000li's motor (and wheel assembly) replaced with the new motor, since my present motor appears to be almost unusable for medium speed runs of even 15 miles, probably less on a hot day.

Gary -

Your XM-5000Li was likely built by the EFun factory (Amoyee Chen) not Mountain Chen's factory (ERider.cn). It used to be that EFun used a 6 phase motor and controller and that ERider uses the more common 3 phase (we also use 3 phase).

If that's still the case then any motor from Mountain Chen's factory (to which Johnny refers) is unlikely to be a drop in replacement for your bike. You'd need to at least replace the controller as well.

I believe that Greg (owner of X-Treme the importer of these bikes) was moving all his orders to EFun from ERider. It's very possible that situation has changed - I haven't spoken with Greg for four or five months now.

I know this all somewhat confusing and from what I can see the folks involved don't seem to be very inclined to clarify things.

I can give you more info if you want - send me an email or PM if you're interested.

There appear to be 20 of each of the three colors (black, blue, or "red") of the 4000Li in stock at X-Treme. The price is listed as $4300 now, apparently to rise by $500 sometime within 30 days.

There is an on-line "pdf" manual for the 4000li, but the current link does not work. It refers to an "Image" folder and the "xm-4000li" folder has an "image" folder (initial "i" is not cap) in it, probably by mistake. You can use the link to the on-line 5000li manual, and changing the "5" characters in that URL to "4", and the "I" to "i". The working link is:
http://www.x-tremescooters.com/electric_mopeds/xm-4000li/images/adobe/xm4000Limanual.pdf

Yes, there is still a lot of "imperfect" information at the X-Treme site, but a few things are better. I continue to encourage them to make more improvements.

There appear to be 39 of the 5000li model in stock, 17 in black, and 9 ? blue, and 12 ? red.

I visited Mountain Chen.
At the end of last summer he moved their production from Shanghai to Xiamen, the early 3500´s were made in Shanghai.
The 3500, 4000, 5000 and Thunder are all made in the new factory.
The new plastics (nice fit) and other parts makes the 3500-5000 almost the same bikes except for motors, controllers and batteries.
The 5000 Watt motors will also be replaced by a different design, similar to the 3500-4000 motors, the larger circumference might eliminate the temperature problems some presently have on their 5000´s...

Johnny, with respect, I'm having trouble with some of this info because I'm about 95% certain that the 4000Li and 5000Li are EFun-based bikes and don't come from any of Mt. Chen's factories.

Well, I might have misunderstood the whole thing since the whole meeting with Mountain was in chinese and I speak it pretty good but not fluently. We also didn`t talk much about this issue...
I have also recently noticed that the motors on both the 4000 and the 5000 is of the smaller diameter and Mountain uses the larger ones, so you are propably right...
Guess I thought that X-treme wouldn´t buy from both brothers..

The 5000li motor has an "engine" (motor) number stamped into the metal near the edge of the left-side cover plate. This makes the 5000li a LOT easier to Register in California.

Hopefully the 4000li will have a stamped number also.

Do any of the M.C. motors have an "engine" number?

I wonder if they fixed the brake pad overlap problem on these new models. I would also like some specs on the controller and motor. If these smaller diameter motors are getting hot I would like to know more about that. I just bought another 3500li for $2999. They are the 2008 models. Google 3500li special and you'll find it. They have the larger diameter motors. Then you can take the money you saved and buy a TSL72-15 and a 4pack of extra batteries and you have a 48MPH machine (like they advertise)I have run mine full speed on 24cells for 20mi nonstop without any overheating. The TSL72-15 will charge 24cells in 2.67hrs. I'm testing 28cells now (in a 3500li) so far so good. 54MPH

I wonder if they fixed the brake pad overlap problem on these new models. I would also like some specs on the controller and motor. If these smaller diameter motors are getting hot I would like to know more about that. I just bought another 3500li for $2999. They are the 2008 models. Google 3500li special and you'll find it. They have the larger diameter motors. Then you can take the money you saved and buy a TSL72-15 and a 4pack of extra batteries and you have a 48MPH machine (like they advertise)I have run mine full speed on 24cells for 20mi nonstop without any overheating. The TSL72-15 will charge 24cells in 2.67hrs. I'm testing 28cells now (in a 3500li) so far so good. 54MPH

I just talked to Mountain Chen today and it seems like X-treme have to many scooters in stock, that`s the reason for the sale.
I also got confirmed that the 4000 and 5000 comes from the E-fun factory and that they are pushing quite a few amps into that smaller diameter motor causing the high temperatures.
Tried out the new MC motor today and got a top speed of 46MPH compared to 40MPH with the original 3500-motor, still using the same 80A controller and 20 batteries.
The new motor is made of one piece of solid aluminium compared to the old 2-piece one made of steel?

Where's information on this "new Thunder" model you mentioned?

There is a "New Thunder Scooter" at www.alibaba.com ...
is that it?
I would guess not, but ...
they have LOTS of import products listed.

Tried out the new MC motor today and got a top speed of 46MPH compared to 40MPH with the original 3500-motor, still using the same 80A controller and 20 batteries.
The new motor is made of one piece of solid aluminium compared to the old 2-piece one made of steel?

That's a nice improvement. Does it run cooler as well? Where can you get one? Does anyone have experience with the 6kw motor Kelly is selling? I was going to get one of those but thought that the stock stuff in my 3500li would probably hold up so I decided to take a chance. The MC must be considerably lighter, thats great! Can we test it with 24&28 cells. Please!Please!Please! can we! can we!:)

Here´s a pic of the Thunder, looks even nicer in black...
5kW motor, 72V, 64MPH

That Photo is not a Thunder..It is the New Voltio Idea, finally named AMPERIO by BERECO

Take a Glance

BERECO Amperio

Best for Visforvoltage People ;-)

BERECO GENERAL LEAFLET

The Thunder also appears to be showing up as the X-Rider over at: http://www.xtremegreenproducts.com/products/

I think XTremeGreen may win the prize for the most outrageous claims though...

1) they claim a 95 mile range, that claim used to be made when they said they had a 40Ah pack
2) now they have a 24 x 60Ah cell pack and they claim it's 6kWh. They get to this number by using the peak LiFe voltage 4.25V which is invalid on at least a couple of levels
3) they also claim it's eligible for either $2500 or $3334 in federal tax credits - depending on where you look.

Yeah, I know it's probably bad form for a rival manufacturer to dis a rival's marketing - but for crying out loud these are outrageous claims. I've watched the site for a while and just couldn't hold back any longer (self-restraint has never been a strong suit!)

For folks that are wondering why I'm calling those above claims outrageous:

1) there's no mention of what speed one has to go to get 95 miles range. Even with a 60Ah x 24 cell pack (rather than the first advertised 40Ah version) 95 miles is extremely optimistic at any reasonable speed. Maybe they did some fuzzy math based on their incorrectly calculated pack capacity (they claim 6kWh pack capacity by using the peak voltage of the cell). Probably did that and assumed 100% depth of discharge (can't do that).

2) you can't use the peak voltage value of the cell for anything meaningful. Even if you try and use it to quote a peak voltage you better have a charger that ensures you get 4.25V and if you look at the discharge curve for the cells you'll see that the voltage drops early on and then remains flat. You certainly can't use it to calculate pack capacity (even to try and get Uncle Sam to give you a bigger credit - see next). For pack capacity you need to use 3.2V (nominal voltage), so it's 60 x 24 x 4.25 = 4.608 kWh. Furthermore for range you need to figure out the usable capacity as 80% of that value. Unless you want to kill your cells early (even with a BMS you still shorten a packs life dramatically if you go beyond 80% depth of discharge). Oh, and BTW, the claim you make in your blog about being the only commercially available bike with 24 60Ah cells? Oops, not so - we've been advertising that for a month or more now - but I'll let that one slide.

3) I presume they are calculating the tax credit of $3334 based on $2500 base credit plus extra credit for every Wh over 4kWh. Trouble is that's for four or more wheels only. There is a tax credit for NEVs and motorcycles (thanks to lobbying by Vectrix and NMG - thanks guys!) - but it's 10% of purchase price. I believe you can also write off your sales tax on any new vehicle purchase (a different incentive).

Grumble, grumble...

Look, dear readers, I know I'm a competitor but if you're going to buy this bike please do your homework - and feel free to ask an independent observer who knows this stuff their opinion.

And, if you're selling an EV of any type - you need to do your homework too. There's no excuse for some of these claims (although I hope I'm wrong on the tax credit thing!)

Where did you get the TSL72-15?

So basically you're just adding more batteries to go faster. Nice! Where are you buying the additional batteries from?

I got the TSL at Elite power systems. Now Kelly controllers sells a 96v charger, so it makes it much easier to run 28 cells. I had to use two separate chargers. There are many other sources now, I would look around. Sorry the reply took so long, I hadn't checked in for awhile.

Bill

I have an xm4000 li :)

Just wanted to correct myself, 84v charger would be for 28 cells, 96v for 32 cells.