Warning:Throttle on brake release

I had a good learning experience with my Motorino XPv. The throttle is the right handle grip on my scooter. Only had it for a few days when my intention was to mount and maneuver the scooter back into it's parking stall. I didn't notice that the key was in the on position and grabbed the right handle bar (the throttle) and there was nothing I could do but watch in horror as my brand new scooter went for a ride without a rider! ;) No damage to the electrical but it landed on it's right hand side and smashed the foot board, side panel and turn signal. Duck tape worked well until the new parts arrived! LOL I've learned to not get off the scooter without taking the keys out of the ignition! :)
Sandra Harris

Hey Guys-- I had my mishap when I had my hand on the throttle and I was off the bike and pushing it backwards. As I was pushing it the bending of my wrist turned on throttle on and the bike took off. I paniced and tried to compensate but the bike ended up on its side and broke the throttle--which I taped together until I could get the new one. I now turn off the ignition before I go backwards! I believe this is something to be very concerned about. So lets spread the word....Mikie

Icc...,
I had the turn in the driveway (short, but an upgrade), gave a little throttle to my 5000li, that was too much, I gave a touch of brakes to slow, but then got an unplanned, sudden spurt forward, and I made a panic stop, resulting in the 350-lb "scoot" tipped too far over for me to keep it up, and then me wedged beteen the bike and the car!

Fortunately, some ice on a swollen spot on my leg should make things OK, ... but I was lucky.

Another CAUTION:
Trying to get going on a hill after stopping ... it is not easy to do.
Suggestions, Please?

With the 3500's 3-phase (or the 5000's 6-phase) motor, the Hall-Effect sensors normally provide phase timing information to the controller, right?

When starting from stopped, how does the controller know what to do?

When trying to start on a hill, and the motor is actually turning (slowly) in reverse, do the Hall sensors give misleading information?
Or, is the controller smart enough to do the "right" thing to get the motor going forward?

What happens as the motor speed nears zero under heavy load?

The direction of the motor is determined by the order the poles are energised. If the load on the motor is stronger than the force to move the stator from the current energised pole to the next, the motor stalls and you get the 'vibration' effect. This is why this style of motor hass less torque the higher the speeds as there is less time to energise the pole, hence less time for the magnetic field to act on the stator to turn the motor. Torque drops of at high RPM.

The controller energising the poles makes the motor go in the right direction.

I'm not sure of which hall-effect (magnet sensors) you mention. The one for the re-gen brakes?

A more on-topic reply, is that i rode my BionX bike for the first time today, and fell of my bike for the first time in years, trying to bump up on a curb, you lift the front wheel and then when it comes down, the pressure of the peddle can cause a surge (peddling controls the speed) and hey presto i was on the floor and me and the freshly painted bike all scratched up!

This is why this style of motor has less torque the higher the speeds as there is less time to energise the pole, hence less time for the magnetic field to act on the stator to turn the motor. Torque drops of at high RPM.

The controller energising the poles makes the motor go in the right direction.

I'm not sure of which hall-effect (magnet sensors) you mention. The one for the re-gen brakes?

Not quite correct.
permanent magnet 3-phase sychronous motors are the 2nd highest torque dense motor there is (the first is the powered magnet 3-phase sychronous motor).

the reason you have torque drop off at higher speeds is because the back emf of the motor gets closer to the pack voltage:
motor voltage = motor current * internal resistance + constant * rpm

the max voltage you can apply to the motor is limited by pack voltage.
when the constant * rpm component is significant enough to force motor current to fall, torque drops off:
Torque = constant * motor current.

If you have a sufficiently high pack voltage, you wont ever experience torque drop off.

the above is a bit simplified (i treated the motor as a DC motor, rather than a 3-phase), but the concept is correct

the hall sensors report motor position at all times.
at all times, at least one of the sensors is high and at least one is low.
during transition, 2 of the 3 sensors are high, and the third low.

If a hall fails, then either the controller wont power the motor at all, or it will attempt to guess motor position.

Matt

It appears that the "Econ Mode" switch on the 5000li primarily tells the controller to cut the max current to 50 amps (down from 100 amps). There is no mention of it in the manual.

The 4000's manual shows a Speed Switch" but says nothing about it.

The 3100's manual contains a STRONG warning to not change the switch setting while the bike is moving.

Since that switch on the 5000 is "hidden" in a locked compartment, one might assume that the same caution applies to the 5000li. I will try to get some more info from the "factory".

However, is it possible that the Econ mode puts the controller into a special "low-speed, high-torque" mode of driving the 6-phase motor?
I doubt it, since that would be such a great "low-gear" feature that it would at least be mentioned, right?

So, do you have any real reason to suspect that using the "Econ" mode would help me get up a steep hill?
Thanks

Yes it is a big bummer, It cost me $2000 for all of that mod work and then the motor(add another $600 for motor) comes up toast. I would love to be able to put 28-30 batteries in (once we get the 6k motor figures out) but seems like the hold up is a cheap charger that will do that many cells, why has no one used a zivan charger? seems like it would allow us to have much more flexibility in what packs we would like to assemble and then upgrade to?

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_chargers_zivan.php

meanwhile I asked the tech, if possible to put the 3500 motor back on until we get the 6k figured out, that way at least I can ride! Mikie

regen could be a bit tricky.

the only way i could get regen to work safely on my emax with the kelly 400A controller was to use the first bit of throttle travel. so at 0 throttle, regen is at what i set it to (which is the most braking effect you want on your back wheel in the dry in an emergency stop).

more throttle reduces regen until power becomes positive again.
i couldnt get the regen on brake signal low enough (read dangerously strong even in the dry) and hooking up the second throttle for regen made no difference.

anyway, regen on my setup increased range by a mere 1%.
once in a blue moon i go to a friends house who lives on top of a very large steep hill.
coasting down i get up to 80kmh (50mph), so i need to brake to keep speeds vaguely safe.
this is the only time i get 2% more range.

each time i come down from 42mph (70kmh) i recover about 0.1AH (my pack voltage under regen is 63.x v)
peak current is around 25A, and falls away as i lose speed.

increasing regen power wont get me more recoverable energy on my commute (i did try though :) ) but does stop me faster (rear biased braking, back wheel skids under emergency brake).

Matt

actually, the emax setup is AC, as are all the extreme scooters, and just about any scooter made since 2005.
the problems ive encountered have mainly been with how the software is setup on the controller (the sort of thing an update could fix later on).

in theory, the kelly actually accepts dual throttle input.
one for forward torque
one for backwards torque
normally only the forward accelerator is active.
if you are moving forward and the brake switch is on, the backwards accelerator becomes active. however, even at 0, the minimum regen was much to powerful.
if you are stationary or moving backwards, and the reverse switch is on, the motor will operate in reverse.

even though the regen doesnt quite work, im very impressed with it.

i do on occasion do some stop-start riding in peak hour traffic.
on this occasion, the return for me is around 3.5%
still not worth changing controllers for, but it you have to anyway, you may aswell.

Matt