Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

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turok
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

If you think about it,
from now on, their value can only increase :-)

If it happens that they were going to sell the left over stock at low prices, I'll be sure to get myself a second one!

"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment

Wotnopetrol
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

This all very dismaying.

Of course I just want what we all want, to keep riding this wonderful machine. I'm not clever enough to repair it myself and it seems that it is so complex that only enthusiasts with skill like Mik will be riding on one soon.

To think that when the fuse blows next time I'm out of the game, left with an expensive doorstop saddens me. If I knew the new software release solves the problem of the flimsy main fuse or that I could change the thing without electrocuting myself or needing an "Inrush Flux Capacitor" or whatever it is, then that would be something. I mean, I know that when the batteries die then that would probably be it, but at least with care they should last a few years longer.

This fuse thing is like the Sword of Damaclese hanging over the bike. No warning, no solution, at least for me, and so frustrating it will be to know that it's just a pissy little broken thin piece of metal that will be stopping it from running perfectly. Something that should have been an automatic overload breaker, not a fuse, a system like you find in common HiFi amplifiers. Grrr.

I suppose I'm a little more disheartened because this is the second time it's has happened to me. Once with the wonderful little BMW C1 which is now obsolete and sits on my driveway, dearly loved but not used much. Now soon I'll have a dead Vectrix alongside it as soon as there's no support for it. I now use the V as a treat and not an everyday vehicle, just like I do with the C1.

I'm so tempted to just go and buy a big reliable Jap scooter with guaranteed support and be done with being a guinea pig/pioneer of new technology/embracer of new ideas and concepts.

So I will now just meter out my V riding pleasure.

As my fuse went after just 2000 miles and I have now done 3000 miles, I expect its ability to move itself under its own power will be pretty much limited. Bah!!! Such a shame.

Simon

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I suppose I'm a little more disheartened because this is the second time it's has happened to me. Once with the wonderful little BMW C1 which is now obsolete and sits on my driveway, dearly loved but not used much. Now soon I'll have a dead Vectrix alongside it as soon as there's no support for it. I now use the V as a treat and not an everyday vehicle, just like I do with the C1.

All is not lost, especially if we can keep guys like Mik and Volts76 around to show us the way. :-)

As for the V being a "treat", mine is definately a TREAT, and I will use it every day that I can, because it is not paying for itself sitting still.

When I bought my V, gas was four bucks a gallon, and my calculations led to the conclusion that if I got ten years of use riding at least ten days a month, the bike would literally pay for itself in gas savings, and during the process, I could actually ENJOY my daily commute needs, and proudly proclaim that I wasn't polluting the planet.

Gas is half that now (but creeping back up), and I realize that a ten year ride may not be in the cards for this bike, but even still, every day that I use is is a treat, and a savings. It is still the only vehicle I've ever owned that truly costs me nothing to use and pays me back in gas money that would have otherwise been burnt.

I would have spent six grand on a gas scooter (was looking at a Suzy Burgman), but I elected to spend nine grand on a Vectrix, that I do consider more fun to ride. In the long run, the Burgman might have been a "safer" bet, but after having owned a V for 10 months now, I can honestly say that I don't look forward to ever replacing it with a gas burner of any kind.

marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

It will be a big month for Vectrix. While Vectrix UK,Europe and the factory in Poland are desperately seeking a restructuring plan that would allow for the survival of the vectrix brand as well as providing for parts and servicing to continue, the US parent is mired in squables concernming the payouts to US corporate executives and stakeholders. All this as the brand reputation and and dealer network (created at such expense) is rapidly collapsing.

These events are very unfortunate, because, as Mik has pointed out, despite some lapses in quality and component choices, Vectrix was the first and probably only, freeway legal, mass produced, high quality, affordable EV, able to compete with ICE vehicles.

The Vectrix has its drawbacks, outside of the UK, its range and relatively low speed, was a definate turn-off for the general market. In addition, its size and wight precluded most female buyers, and of course everywhere outside of the US it price made it very uncompetitive with all but the the enthusiast, and well... it seems there were just not enough of them to support a serious production run.

Still the product showed great potential. It is a real shame that Vectrix was not produced by a major manufacturer, with the resources and experience to develop and market the product. just think what Honda or BMW could have produced. It may be that one of these majors will pick up the brand and revive it, but I doubt it.

Of course Vectrix made costly mistakes, it replaced the engineers and experienced sales/marketing exceutives with those who could hype up captial and reaise equity investment on the stockmarket. that itself is no bad thing if the money raised is spent on product development and customer infrastructure. in Vectrix case however The capital was squandered on corporate engrandizement and executive waste. Small manufactures with a new product must for stategic alliances with very large organizations with a mutual vested interest, preferably those with deep pockets and real technical,political,and market clout. Vectrix was offered several such opportunities but was unable to avail itself of such alliances because the egotistal attitude of the CEO and his supporters. Again this is not necessarily a bad thing, if the corporate head is a Rupert Murdoch, but in Vectrix case it would appear to me more of a Delorean..without the charm.

The question is can a suitor be found in time? And how would anyone turn the company round considering the current economic environment, and lack of capital confidence. Where would the money come from to dramatically improve the Vectrix range, lighten the weight, and reduce the price with a high volume production run? Is there real mass buyer support for the product in a world of relatively low petrol prices and the environmental issues taking a back seat in curret government policies?

It is my belief that the above factors wil kill off the Vectrix brand. In fact, it would seem likely that the only EV's that will appear from small makers will be in the commercial or agricultural areas, until a major Japanese maker will produce a high quality EV car for certain markets supported by government subsidies.

marcopolo

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I already have a nice 400cc Honda ICE all lined up for retrofitting on my Vectrix.

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I already have a nice 400cc Honda ICE all lined up for retrofitting on my Vectrix.

Wow, that would be a big job. Fuel tank fitting, new instruments, new throttle assembly, big alterations to the rear swing arm, new loom, custom mountings for the engine, radiator installation and all the associated hoses etc. Kudos to you if you do it. It would no doubt still have the great handling of the V.

In the UK C1 Club we have been playing with the idea of converting the BMW C1 to a Bergman 400 engine which of course is an ICE with radiator already in place, starter battery, conventional throttle and so on, but no one's had the balls to do it yet.

Simon

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Hmmm...latest information would seem to suggest that Vectrix Corp will run out of funds in mid-july 2009, unless a financial backer or merger can be found. This would appear difficult, but maybe not impossble as the Vectrix corp still has some assets to sell. In my own opinion, given the very limited sales to date and the now tarnished reputation, I can't see an economic case for a profitable return on any 'white knight" investment.

It maybe a good time to stock up on spare parts!!

marcopolo

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

In my own opinion, given the very limited sales to date and the now tarnished reputation, I can't see an economic case for a profitable return on any 'white knight" investment.

Sad to say, but when a company gets into trouble, the market loses confidence in support for the product, so the product itself won't sell. Unless a rock solid company buys them out, revamps the dealer network, and can wait out the lean economy, they are likely doomed by circumstances, some of which were beyond their control or predictions.

I love my V, and I'm glad I was able to buy one. For a while, I may own a piece of history, or collector's item, but I bought it to use, and will do so until it can't be fixed, and hopefully, by then, something else like it will be available, because I have to admit that I'm hopelessly addicted to this new fangled mode of transportation!!!!:-)

Wotnopetrol
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I have to admit that I'm hopelessly addicted to this new fangled mode of transportation!!!!:-)

Oh yes!

Simon

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I love my V, and I'm glad I was able to buy one. For a while, I may own a piece of history, or collector's item, but I bought it to use, and will do so until it can't be fixed, and hopefully, by then, something else like it will be available, because I have to admit that I'm hopelessly addicted to this new fangled mode of transportation!!!!:-)

I was thinking the same. I really like and enjoy my Vec and i will be riding it as much as i can. And then hopefully there will be a new range of similar or better products available. Its going to be hard to change to something else which is not at this level. I`m also addicted to electrons!

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I think I was fortunate to have the Januarry 2009 patch applied, and so far the bike is giving sterling service and has performed much as I would like it to. The prospect of Vectrix failing has always been a very real one, but even with the number of reported vehicles being sold, those that we know with actual difficulties appears to be very small, so if ever there was a 'good' sign for a potential investor, that must be one of them.

As to the vagaries and/or (in)abilities of senior UK management - the fault for that must surely be for those senior sould that were responsile for the placing of someone in that post. Fortunately, my time of caring about corporate ineptitude is long gone - I've come to the decision that nobody is particularly good at anything, even those WITH degrees... and we get where we do through sheer blind luck.

I think Vectrix just looks lucky.....

- Raymond

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Actually, the servicing history for Vectrix is not that good. Vectrix UK would appear to have the best service record, but even so losses created by impractical warranty terms coupled with a much higher than planned for failure rate,was always going to become a receipe for finacial disaster. The proof of the above statement is reflected in the many comments from Vectrix owners on this forum and other similar forums. Remember for every "Mr Mik" there are 10 who suffer in silence. The blame for poor decisions was almost certainly not the the fault of the senior UK management, but the policies of the US parent. This always occurs when a under-resourced corporation undertakes grandiose expansion plans, concentrating on "corporate image and deal-making" rather than product reputation and development. It is common in such corporate failures for the CEO to be a grandiose, domineering, ego-maniac who becomes surrounded by a coiterie of yes men, whose only commitment to the enterprise is self benefit.

Sadly, for the shareholders,creditors,dealers,customers and fans of Vectrix, Vectix never found a talented and shrewd leader,(like Lee Iacoca) whose accumen and dicipline could have inspired success for the first real, mass produced EV, of any practical usage.

It's very unlikely an investor will pick up on Vectrix.(even "Better Place' aint that foolish!) The only hope is that some large Asian/Euro corporation can add the Vectrix technology to an existing product range, and a new EV will be born that can finaly prove both a concept and finacial success.

The real danger such a corporate failure possesses is to deter Investors/supporters/ customers from all EV products. Thereby hindering progress to the acceptance and development of EV transport.

marcopolo

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

The real danger such a corporate failure possesses is to deter Investors/supporters/ customers from all EV products. Thereby hindering progress to the acceptance and development of EV transport.

I agree with this 100% - the way Vectrix approached the marketing as "we're the only one with the only way" means that when they fail the folks that believed that message end up thinking "oh no, they failed - there are no more chances".

It's very unlikely an investor will pick up on Vectrix.(even "Better Place' aint that foolish!)

Actually, if someone can buy Vectrix for pennies on the dollar then they can leapfrog their way into the EV market. I think it makes a reasonably good investment for an established manufacturer.

The only hope is that some large Asian/Euro corporation can add the Vectrix technology to an existing product range, and a new EV will be born that can finaly prove both a concept and finacial success.

The only hope? Really? Sheesh, thanks! ;-) It seems like you (and many other Vectrix owners) believe Vectrix is the only EV motorcycle out there. That just ain't so and the competition ain't standing still. Look at Zero, Electric Motor Sport, Brammo, RMartin, X-Treme and Current Motor Company. That's just the ones off the top of my head in the US marketplace - and the US scooter marketplace is far smaller than Asia and Europe. Yes, Vectrix did some things better than those folks but in turn those folks are doing other things better than Vectrix. Most importantly all of those companies can show progress in their plans - iterative improvements are probably the most important aspect at the moment.

Your statement ignores that potential and it goes back to show that Vectrix marketing was at least somewhat successful with their message of "we're the only one with the only way"

Often with new technology it pays to be "the first to be second"...

Give all us manufacturers working hard to be first to be second a chance and we'll surprise you yet!

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Hmmm.. it would appear that I have offended other manufacture/importers of EV's!

Perhaps, I should clarify two points, firstly my comments concerned a finacial rescue of Vectrix Corp and its subsideries. Vectrix is more than $200 million in debt and has a excessively complex corporate stucture. Vectrix could not be 'purchased for pennies',and will become a field day for lawyers as Vectrix is already entagled in several cases, in several jurisdictions, of expensive, complicated(and ultimately fruitless)litigation. This is just the start of the liquidation process, no easy remedy will be found. However, I did say that the Vectrix technoloy would be an attractive purchase for any corporation either already in or wishing to enter the EV industry.

Secondly, I was refering to Mass-produced VOLUME freeway-legal consumer manufactures! You say " look at Zero, Electric Motor Sport, Brammo, RMartin, X-Treme and Current Motor Company" With all due respect, none of these companies fits the above discription. At the best, these organizations are either rebranded, low quality and performance, Chinese imports,ambitious prototypes, or impractical hopeful design start-ups.

Don't get me wrong I admire and applaud your passion! But there is a vast difference between a small hobbyist-maker/importer and a mass-manufacturer, with a world wide distribution network and quality standards like Honda, Toyota etc..

I really wish you and your company well, I shall follow your progress with immense interest.

marcopolo

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Spanish(?) Police received new Vectrix bikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQBq2qfQP74

Can anyone, who speaks Spanish, make a short translation of the Info on the right?
Isn't it risky for the Police to get these bike if the company is about to fail? Maybe the situation is not that serious yet?

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Hmmm.. it would appear that I have offended other manufacture/importers of EV's!

Nope you didn't offend me - not sure about the others - not sure they follow this forum with the same "passion" as I do.

Perhaps, I should clarify two points, firstly my comments concerned a finacial rescue of Vectrix Corp and its subsideries. Vectrix is more than $200 million in debt and has a excessively complex corporate stucture. Vectrix could not be 'purchased for pennies',and will become a field day for lawyers as Vectrix is already entagled in several cases, in several jurisdictions, of expensive, complicated(and ultimately fruitless)litigation. This is just the start of the liquidation process, no easy remedy will be found. However, I did say that the Vectrix technoloy would be an attractive purchase for any corporation either already in or wishing to enter the EV industry.

Secondly, I was refering to Mass-produced VOLUME freeway-legal consumer manufactures! You say " look at Zero, Electric Motor Sport, Brammo, RMartin, X-Treme and Current Motor Company" With all due respect, none of these companies fits the above discription. At the best, these organizations are either rebranded, low quality and performance, Chinese imports,ambitious prototypes, or impractical hopeful design start-ups.

Well, that might be what you meant but that's not what you typed. You distinctly said "the only hope" - not "the only hope for Vectrix" nor "the only hope for a major manufacturer". But that's OK - most folks might have understood your position from the get go - and those that didn't will do so now.

Don't get me wrong I admire and applaud your passion! But there is a vast difference between a small hobbyist-maker/importer and a mass-manufacturer, with a world wide distribution network and quality standards like Honda, Toyota etc..

ROTFL! Believe me neither my bank account nor my partners think this is a hobby! Nor are we just importing a bunch of bikes and slapping our name on them. I'm not quite sure which category you see me or I see me from your list: "these organizations are either rebranded, low quality and performance, Chinese imports,ambitious prototypes, or impractical hopeful design start-ups." If I have to chose the can I go with "ambitious prototypes" but add "that will be on the market in around 1 month"? Sure you can come back and throw rotten tomatoes at me in July if we don't deliver.

One of the reasons we'll succeed is because we aren't overly ambitious with the technology. For the first model we're systems integrators - taking the most appropriate technology in each subsystem and making it work well together. By doing that we've also identified a key central component that other integrators don't have (but the mighty V does) - no, not the BMS (but yes we do have one and it's better than the mighty V's), but something else.

"Not being overly ambitious" doesn't mean that the bike isn't ambitious nor extremely capable - it is. It's just that, as our Chief Engineer puts it: "we're not going to reinvent any wheels until we're darn sure which wheels need reinventing".

Go and look at the history of many major corporations - take Honda and Ford as examples - and you'll find a small concern that got big. No, I don't imagine we'll reach those heights - but EV's are a game changer and the big manufacturers aren't well suited for dealing with new technology for a myriad of reasons. Also, Vectrix went along way to demonstrating that trying to mimic the big manufacturers might not be the way to go. Think of it like this: the home computer revolution was started not by the established player (IBM) but by the startups (Apple and Microsoft). Look where they ended up.

When a disruptive technology comes along don't rule out the little guy.

Above all we're an engineering driven company (at the moment too much so - we need better sales and marketing!). I don't think Vectrix started out that way - I think they started with a vision (wasn't it started by an ex-CEO of one of the Italian companies?) and then they added some great engineers. However, their grandiose plans took TEN YEARS to bring to market - I bet it also ran severely over-budget. They hobbled themselves with massive debt and mass-production overhead. They placed a bet that they could sell tens of thousands of these bikes. They sold about 2000. They lost the bet. Oops.

Now, why would I (or any one else wanting to start an EV motorcycle company) want to follow that example?

I really wish you and your company well, I shall follow your progress with immense interest.

Thanks - I do appreciate it. And I'm not at all offended by your observations - I really just posted to tweak you Vectrix owners who think that the Vectrix business model is the only way to succeed... Usually it's Mik who responds but now I have someone else for some friendly sparring :-)

As Puck might say to the Merchants of Venice:
If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended that you have but slumbered here while these visions did appear...

:-)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

rewski
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Here is the google translation of the police force with the new Vectrix. Not a perfect translation but you can get the gist of most of it.

Arona June 2, 2009
Police Beach joins the environment with respect to the purchase of five electric bikes.
The council is in the process to acquire a record 14 new cars for the local police.

Local police will be the first body Arona Public Safety Municipal de Canarias using electric bikes, adding in this way for initiatives to promote sustainable mobility carried out by various municipalities throughout Spain awareness for the environment. We want a safer city and fulfill the proper ratios to ensure a quality destination, said the mayor of Arona, Jose Alberto Gonzalez Reveron, during the presentation of the motorcycles at the entrance to the cultural center of Los Cristianos.

The purpose of the acquisition of five units of Vectrix electric motorcycles, for the section of the Beach Police, is to improve the performance of local police aronera in the resorts of Los Cristianos and Playa de Las Americas, while representing improved environmental conditions along the working group that developed the current government. In this sense, the first mayor announced that the council is currently in process to acquire a record 14 new cars for the local police.

Also Reverón Gonzalez wanted to highlight the work of the municipal body aroneras costs. In an important area for the municipality would like to highlight the functions of the Beach Police, which is an edge unit that is doing a good job, he said.

Company Going Green, Electric Mobility Specialist, is responsible for the distribution of the five units of Vectrix electric motorcycles. The managing director, Joaquin Gutierrez, explained that these bikes are made with one hundred percent recyclable material.

These bikes, totally silent, is presented as a real alternative to the burning vehicle, with performance comparable to bikes with petrol and energy savings of 90% with respect to these.

The Vectrix maxi-scooters reach a maximum speed of 110 km / h, run on batteries that are plugged into the conventional power grid and allow for up to 100 kilometers. This implies a cost of less than 0.40 euros in energy per charge. This type of electric vehicles involved, thus not only a significant energy savings, but also a significant financial savings.

These environmental and economic benefits must be added for ease of driving these vehicles, operated in reverse and brake engine throttle grip, comfort, with ample space to store helmets and other objects and reduced spending on its maintenance.

The presentations of this model makes the Vectrix electric motorcycle an ideal vehicle for fleets and government enterprises, as evidenced by the results of independent studies of user satisfaction. For months, local police patrols in this type of patrol vehicles, opting for electric mobility as an alternative for clean and sustainable transport. Similarly, other public or private services in the country use these bikes to carry out their daily activities.

Adam - Denver, CO
2007 Vectrix VX-1 charged with the power of the sun = zero carbon footprint

eyeinthesky
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Re: Suspension of Trading - The end of Vectrix ?

What wrong with this site, has two years of information if you look back,
dont confuse us with another newbe site.
Peter

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

"we're not going to reinvent any wheels until we're darn sure which wheels need reinventing".

JDH. I wish you well in your venture, and will be following your progress with fingers crossed for you.

If I may make one comment which bugs me about most ALL of the current and potential future EV bikes that we see glimpses of....

As the market demands faster speed and longer range, the bike itself should be designed to provide the rider with more high speed/long range comfort. This means more leg room and a windshield/fairing design that provides protection for more than a guy's belly button!! If your bike is capable of a 50 mile range and any range at all at 60mph, will it be comfortable for a person to RIDE to it's potential?

I find that even the Vectrix falls somewhat short in this area. It has a body design that is nicely suited for 5 mile trips at 40 mph, but if I'm going to ride with highway traffic for 10 miles, I need to feel more like I'm on a bike than on a Vespa, and I don't want my helmet parachuting off the back of my head at 60mph.

While the EVC Volta LOOKS proportionately nicely designed, I seriously doubt that 6' rider would have any wind protection behind it's low slung windshield which appears to be barely above it's handlebars.(that is assuming that a Volta might actually be built some day, and I have serious doubts about that as well).

Your bike looks very nice, and looks like it may even have more trunk space than the Vectrix, and from the photos, it looks like a decent shield height as well. Would love to see a rolling video with a 6' rider onboard.

I think you are very correct in that it's going to be the little guy with low overhead that gets the best foothold in the EV Bike market. Build a bullet proof machine that doesn't require a huge repair center network, or a rocket scientist to fix, and make the best of a small but passionate marketplace. Corbin found out the hard way with the Sparrow that the world will not yet support mass production of off-the-norm vehicles. A company must gear itself around sales, not the other way around.

Will be keeping an eye on your progress, my friend.

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Would love to see a rolling video with a 6' rider onboard.

Watch this space!

You make some great points - and ones that we are taking into consideration. Have you ever ridden a gas-powered maxi-scooter such as a Suzuki Burgman or Honda Silverwing? How would you rate those for the ergonomics? Those two bikes are what we would ultimately be shooting for. I want to know if they're the right target. If you haven't ridden one but want to do me a massive favor take a trip to your local dealer and sit on one.

I'm 5'7" (if I stand up straight!) and 150lbs - so it's great for me! But as this isn't a hobby ;-)we do have some taller folks and I'll get a 6 footer to ride it and I'll take some video (been meaning to do video for a while now - but it always falls off the to-do list). The bike is more substantial than most of the imports of the XM-3500 ilk but the seat is lower (and more comfy). You certainly feel like you're sitting "on top of" the XM - I feel our bike is much more comparable in riding feel to the VX-1 but it sounds like you don't think the VX-1 is where it needs to be...

(Sorry for "polluting" this Vectrix thread - I know it annoys some folks but unfortunately it's kind of the way conversations go sometimes...)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

I have a friend with a Burgman 650 which is a super nice bike. She has added a bigger Givi shield to it and a Givi tour box. It sits very nice, but I have not ridden it, and have not had the opportunity to sit on a Burgy 400. (was actually looking into buying a Burgy 400 for commuting before I found the Vectrix).

The possibility of using a Burgman or Silverwing as a glider base would open up lots of parts and accessories support from an already established and reputable source, but I'm sure the price of those gliders would drive the final EV cost well out of the market's tolerance level. Still, doesn't hurt to dream! :-)

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

JDH, you are quite correct when you say there is space for small, niche distributor/modifiers of EV's from China or anywhere else for that matter. Equally you are correct when you use the example of Apple v/s IBM, Microsoft don't manufacture PC hardware, but I take your point. The most successful and profitable car manufacturer in todays difficult climate is the specialist UK car maker Morgan! But, I was trying to keep the subject relevant to the Vectrix situation.

The mistake Vectrix made (well one among many) was failing to forge an alliance with an existing mass manufacturer. This would have saved an enormouse amount of money an piggy-backed of an established reputation. Imagine if Vectrix had been released with BMW support? I have read hundreds of articles, news programs,enthusiastic speakers etc..world-wide the publicity was very positive for Vectrix, but the result?, virtually no sales!

Why, I recently addressed a conference of 300 Acedemics and Engineers. Each member of the audience proud of thier 'green' credentials. The overwhelming majority were righteously indignant at the lack of "government support' for EV's. I actually took my Vectrix into the lecture hall and having pointed out that here was an actual commercially available, high quality, freeway legal, EV, exactly what they all have bben saying for years should be available, So hands up those who own one? I found myself a majority of one!!!

This is really the problem for a mass manufacturer, Ev's have such very little purchasing acceptance even among supporters, that after the failure of Vectrix it would take the credibility of a Honda or Toyota to achieve sufficient sales to justify the enormous investment required for mass manufacture. The growth of PC's did not come about from small start-up companies, but rather IBM clones from Sony,Toshiba,Hewlett-Packard etc...But hey JDH you may be just the Micheal Dell the EV Industry needs! I sincerely hope so, because apart from China, and possibly Japan, only Smith Electric of the UK is actually building practical EV's that have a hope of wide spread market acceptance.

Even more disturbing has been the lack of acceptance for EV's in market segments where logic would suggest EV's hold a tremendous advantage, ride-on-mowers for instance, but in fact, such models are very rare and generally ignored by buyers, even when sold by respected major corporations like GE.

So, believe me when I say I admire your courage and desire to produce and sell a worthwile EV. Its just sad that the Vectrix did not practice the discipline and sense of perspective that you seem to display.

marcopolo

jdh2550_1
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Marcopolo,

I think you miss out a very important part of Vectrix poor sales - the price. It was simply too expensive. I wonder how on earth Brammo expects to sell the Enertia at a $13K price point. Although it looks pretty, the Enertia is not a very capable bike. Price is key to a lot of folks - it's not just about what an individual can afford - it's about the value proposition. For example I'm a reasonably affluent individual (well at least I was until I started this venture!) but I couldn't in good conscience justify spending $10,500 on a VX-1 (nor the $12+K which was the introductory price). I have a family so it's not a vehicle I can use every day and it would essentially be a selfish purchase (one which I benefit from more than my family). Yes there are lot of folks who don't think like me, but there are many that do - and if you're going to look for mass production then you have to figure out more about your marketplace.

Motorcycles are usually sold as recreational vehicles in the US and those that aren't are often sold as cost effective transport. A $10K electric vehicle with only a 62mph top speed and a limited range is a tough sell to either of these traditional m/c markets. And, as far as I can tell that's the market Vectrix attempted to sell to. They either needed to reduce their price or develop alternative markets.

They couldn't do the former because of their high-overhead approach.

They didn't seem interested in the latter - they sell through traditional dealers and, as far as I know, don't do much advertising in non-motorcycle marketplaces. Developing an alternative marketplace also takes time and thus also requires a low-overhead approach - or very deep pockets and a long term commitment.

These attributes don't change dependent on the owner of the company. Even a large corporation isn't going to write a blank check waiting patiently for a new technology to mature. You are probably right - Vectrix as a company won't be able to be bought at fire-sale prices. However, it could, then (and only then) I do think that it makes a good investment for a BMW or similar.

Low-overhead is key! At Current we're the lowest possible overhead you can imagine - but that doesn't meant we haven't spent a LOT of money. As well as low-overhead we also have plans for developing alternative market spaces.

One thing that I want to make crystal clear: We are NOT "distributor/modifiers of EV's from China or anywhere else" we manufacture our own bike. Furthermore we plan on being in this for the long run. Hence we're setting a pace for a marathon not a sprint.

This is an interesting and enjoyable discussion thanks for taking the time to continue it.

p.s. I really like the possible Michael Dell comparison - thanks! ;-)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

MikeB
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

As the market demands faster speed and longer range, the bike itself should be designed to provide the rider with more high speed/long range comfort. This means more leg room and a windshield/fairing design that provides protection for more than a guy's belly button!! If your bike is capable of a 50 mile range and any range at all at 60mph, will it be comfortable for a person to RIDE to it's potential?

I find that even the Vectrix falls somewhat short in this area. It has a body design that is nicely suited for 5 mile trips at 40 mph, but if I'm going to ride with highway traffic for 10 miles, I need to feel more like I'm on a bike than on a Vespa, and I don't want my helmet parachuting off the back of my head at 60mph.

You make an excellent point.

I've owned both a Honda Reflex (250cc, 70mph top speed) and a Honda SilverWing (600cc, 115mph top speed). In both cases, the stock windshield put the wind turbulence right about at my forehead, and I'm a medium sized rider (5'8"). In both cases, I purchased a slightly taller aftermarket windshield, and moved the wind turbulence up a few inches, where it was essentially over my head. The Reflex actually had a tiny bit more legroom, but both bikes allow me to sit with my feet forward. And both bikes are suitable for multi-hour rides at highway speeds, and I've used each in that role.

If I was to pick a bike for an electric conversion, I'd probably pick the slightly smaller Reflex, but install a taller windshield. The SilverWing is great as a long-distance touring bike, but the limited nonstop range of an electric rules that out, so it's better to target a medium-range commuter. Long-distance touring on an electric bike won't happen until you can get 400+ miles on an overnight charge, or use a range-extender burning liquid fuel. So you don't really need true interstate capability yet, but a comfortable fast cruise will be appreciated.

I've got a picture of my EVD next to the SilverWing, so you can make a nice size comparison, and I've probably gone one of my old Reflex next the the SilverWing from the week that ownership overlapped. I'll see if I can post both to give you a feel for their sizes.

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

marcopolo
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Sorry JDH, I was not referring to you in particular when I referred to Chinese modified bikes.

I agree that any developer of new technology must maintain a very focused, low overhead structure with many years dedicated to perfecting the product. But having said that, it is possible for very large and heavily resourced corporation to develop a long term, loss making product for future benefits. the best example of this would be Toyota's LEXUS/PRIUS division.

You are absolutely right when you say that Vectrix failed to appeal to either of the two principal markets for this type of vehicle. It was simply to large and expensive to be cheap commuter transport, but two slow and range limited to attract the recreational vehicle market. The scooter design didn't help either. The bulky design, weighing 200 kg ruled out most female riders, and although Vectrix running costs are great in comparison to a large car, the true comparison is with other small scooters. On that basis the economics certainly do not favour Vectrix, so with only aesthetic environmental appeal, the product became an odd-ball, admired by many, but bought by few!

Why Vectrix resisted any development of a propane/butane/LPG range extender is beyond me. With Lexus/ Prius demonstrating a market acceptance of Hybrid's, you would imagine that this would have become a development priority to offer such an option option to at least expand the range to accommodate a greater market.

Unfortunately, instead of product development Vectrix focused on an incredibly complex and wasteful corporate structure. When Vectrix distributors/dealers complained of being overwhelmed by vastly greater servicing and product manufacturing defects than was represented and the time of release,in addition to greater market resistance, and a total lack of support from a disorganised and ineffective management structure. The attitude of the new CEO, Mike Boyle, was simply abusive and litigious. Vast amounts of shareholder funds were expended on proving that the fantasy that all was well with Vectrix top management! Meanwhile sales declined, dealer morale evaporated and potential buyer grew wary. Generally, while the the product floundered the CEO pursued a policy of fund raising to maintain the very policies that had created the disaster. The corporation's full time lawyers' contract allowed for that person to maintain two residences, one in US and the other in Italy, and to commute on a weekly basis. A small indulgence perhaps, but an indication of the the CEO's value priorities.

Fascinated by Mik's long running service battles with Vectrix in Australia, I was astonished to discover that no member of Vectrix management or service engineering has ever visited Australia to support its struggling distributor, the US parent is only represented by a retained firm of lawyers! Yet, (although it is difficult to obtain the real accounts from Vectrix), Australia would appear to account for 5 to 10% of Vectrix Total World Sales. You would think someone would get on a plane from UK or US and visit downunder? Well yes you would think so but not only did Mike Boyle not do so on his extensive and very expensive Asian trips, but actually forbade the UK management sending a a technician with spare parts. This would have cost a fraction of the cost of flying a lawyer, first class to a conference about the same issue! The same pattern of customer relations is repeated in South Africa, France, even the UK. I am not really aware of the problems across the pond in the USA, but from the news and the increasing numbers of US dealers abandoning Cicatrix it is obvious how the malaise set in. If it sounds like I disapprove of Mike Boyle, well I believe that criticism is justified. If the ship's in trouble the Captain must be held accountable. If that Captain behaves like Captain Ahab with a touch of Queeg on steroids, then its time to remove the both the Captain and his supporters.

The role Cicatrix will play in the development of EV's will be significant, if only as a lesson for what not to do!

I look forward to the release of your next model and shall read your website more carefully. Who knows? One day I may be able to say that I was priviliged to know of the famous Current brand when it started!

marcopolo

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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Nice write-up, Marco! :-)

Mik
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Usually it's Mik who responds but now I have someone else for some friendly sparring :-)
:-)

Sometimes it's just much better to listen! Marcopolo has obviously a much much deeper understanding of the background than I ever will.

And regarding our usual point of contention, he told you basically exactly the same as I had to say a few times, just much nicer!

Good luck with your project!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jdh2550_1
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

BTW - reikiman started another post on this topic over here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/6635-expensive-business-plans-vectrix-tesla-etc

it is possible for very large and heavily resourced corporation to develop a long term, loss making product for future benefits. the best example of this would be Toyota's LEXUS/PRIUS division

I agree and I think you also highlight an important point. It seems to me that the Japanese capital system seems more suited to long term investment than the US system which seems primarily driven by short term profits and share dividends.

Why Vectrix resisted any development of a propane/butane/LPG range extender is beyond me.

I disagree. Such a system would likely have meant a smaller battery only range (the space for the system would have to take up some battery space). It would also have created a VERY complex bike with EVEN MORE teething problems. I'm kind of "resigned" to the fact that plug-in hybrids appear to be a necessary stepping stone towards widespread adoption of EVs. However, as an engineer, I'm no fan of hybrids. They're diametrically opposed to one of the advantages of EVs - simplicity. As far as range goes I think the main role of an EV scooter is as a cost effective commuter and as a cost-saving investment for those that own gas-guzzlers. Consider someone who owns an F-150 or similar sized pickup truck (a very popular category over here in the US). That truck gets 14 mpg (combined figure for city and freeway). With a 20 mile commute (each way) and gas at $3 a gallon you can pay for the scooter in only 2 to 3 years. Adoption of EVs will be mainly tied to financial considerations. There are certainly a lot of enlightened folks (many who read this board) that will pay extra because they want to "do the right thing" - but I think we're the minority.

This would have cost a fraction of the cost of flying a lawyer

I very much agree with all you write about needing to have a much more hands-on approach to dealing with the customers and dealers. One can earn so much goodwill through open and honest communication - even if the communication is about bad news. Start-ups need a lot of goodwill and loyal customers becoming their best advocates. This is where MikeB and stawhistle chime in ;-) - OK, hopefully by next month they will ;-)

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

MikeB
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

Start-ups need a lot of goodwill and loyal customers becoming their best advocates. This is where MikeB and stawhistle chime in ;-) - OK, hopefully by next month they will ;-)

Yep, I'll be a loyal and outspoken customer... as soon as you personally deliver serial number #000002 to my door... having driven it yourself all the way from Michigan.... in 55 mile hops. :)

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

jmap
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Re: Suspension of Trading - What does it mean?

It is just me or these last messages are completely out off topic?!

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