XM-5000Li vs. Vectrix ... seems like a no-brainer... what am I missing?

Reliability? Warranty? Local dealer support?

I've never owned either but comparing postings between Vectrix and Xtreme owners you've nailed it on the head. Support and quality seems to be better with Vectrix than Xtreme. On the other hand for myself as I have experience with maintaining my own vehicle I might appreciate the opportunity Xtreme offers to do maintenance on my vehicle. ;-) er.. that didn't come out right. Another way of putting it is it's easier to consider modifying or customizing an Xtreme bike because of the lesser warranty considerations.

Have you already ruled out RMartin or Electric Motorsport?

I do not have experience with the Vectrix, but I have a XM-5000Li.

Reliability?
Too early to tell, since I have only ridden about 15 miles.
In fact, I have yet to charge the "scooter" for the first time,
or even switch it out of the "Economy" (low speed) mode.

But, so far, it appears good, but no BMS or LVC for each individual cell.
It required putting the Throttle assembly onto the right handlebar,
and mounting the "windscreen". After that, mine worked out "of the box".
No loose nuts or screws, and nothing broken (that I have detected).

Warranty?
X-Treme says 2 years for the batteries, 1 year for the motor,
and 6 months for the rest of the bike. Same as for the 3500Li.

Local dealer support?
I am not sure what the "dealers" do, it probably varies a lot with
each dealer.

It appears that people deal directly with X-Treme (via their on-line
service "Ticket") to get service advice, and warranty or repair parts.
You do the labor, and pay for the shipping of warrenty-returned parts,
when a return (like a battery) is requested by X-Treme.

What is New?
It seems that the 5000Li is made at a different factory, and
so far it seems to be a significant step up from the 3500Li.

Mine is in the Orange County area of California, if you would
like to come by to see it.

Another is in the San Antonio area of Texas.

Maybe X-Treme can tell us where there are other XM-5000Li owners
who are willing to show their "motorcycle" (with a scooter body).

PM if you want me to call you to chat.
Cheers, Gary

So what am I missing here? What does the Vectrix provide that is worth the extra $4000?

Maybe I missed it, but are there any actual real world reports about the XM-5000Li yet?

A lot of what is published in the EV world seems to be hype and big fat stinking lies.

Unless a bunch of people who bought a particular EV report that it works well I would not believe a thing about it. Not even that it exists!

It seems that there is always someone promising the imminent arrival of a reliable, cheaper vehicle than what you can buy right now. Then there are inevitably long, long delays (years) and when it finally hits the market, then it does not have a BMS or some other essential part that was promised.

There might be some exceptions to this general rule, like the Twike.

Mik,

Yes, you missed it. At least two of us (myself and AndyH) have the
XM-5000Li "scooter" (really, a "motorcycle" with a scooter body type).

See:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5668-my-xm5000li-experience

and a few things in by blog:
http://visforvoltage.org/blog/garygid

Cheers, Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the offer. Unfortunately I'm in Cleveland, OH, so I won't be able to swing by. I'm glad to hear it worked out of the box, though. I wish there was one place I could go to see all these bikes side by side for a good comparison, but user reviews and photos will have to suffice. I think the only one I would be able to see in my area is the Vectrix, which I'm sure I will do.

--Greg

Hi Greg,

I have a 5000Li and will have it on the road again as soon as I put it back together. There's nothing wrong with it - I just can't stand to not know what's going on inside. :) (And my PakTrakr should be here any time now...)

Your closest bet to see a bike in the flesh would be to head west to X-Treme's showroom in Newton, IA. PM me for the address and contact number if you want to take a drive. I know it's a long haul, but should be a bit closer than San Antonio. ;) (Though you're welcome to come down and thaw out!)

I went with the 5000 because of the 'bang for the buck'. I enjoy maintaining my own equipment so I don't have a problem with X-Treme's 'you wrench it' warranty process. I had a damaged luggage rack on delivery. I submitted a ticket, and learned today that my new rack is on the way. All it cost me was about 5 minutes and a digital photo.

The Vectrix is a more mature product and appears to have a strong support network, but owners do pay for their piece of the pie.

Best of luck in your search!
Andy

@Andy - lol! Off topic but Im laughing as I share your inquisitiveness 'to know whats going on inside' !
However that has got the better of me a number of times - like that hub motor I could never put back together! (Warning - Brushless Hub motors can be hard to take apart - and harder to put together again)

On the Vectrix v Others debate - personally I wouldnt buy another bike that uses NiMh batts so that rules the Vectrix out for me - I thought they were moving to LiFePO4 but I havent seen any yet??

I own a Vectrix and have put about 1000 miles on it and it is as good as all the reports state. I do not have any experience with the XM-5000. However, what is stunning about the Vectrix is acceleration. The vehicle produces 20,000 Watt or 28hp with close to 50 nm tork and you can feel it. It does feel like a motorcycle with about 500cc, like the Yamaha I previously owned. That said, range is an issue and if you need to go more than 30 miles between charges, the Vectrix with its Nimh batteries is not for you. While the vehcle is expensive, it is also very refined. They did not cut any corners. And, I recommend calling them a few times. They are the friendliest most responsive people ever. That makes me pretty comfortable with the purchase. I certainly recommend a test drive to anyone who is waivering.

Very nicely said HarryS.

I'm only aware of two 5000Lis in 'the wild' so far - mine and GaryG's. I'm finishing the PakTrakr and BMS wiring now and hope to be able to start collecting data next week. I look forward to documenting charge/discharge performance, cell balance, and range (PakTrakr) along with speed and performance (GPS). That should give us some better numbers to use when comparing these two bikes.

I don't have any experience with the Vectrix. I've got some recent time on a 3500 and have about 10 miles on my 5000Li so far. I can say that the 5000 will accelerate from an intersection quickly and allow me to catch and stay with 45mph traffic in a gentle uphill. The top speed I've seen is 60 indicated in a slight downhill - and the bike felt very stable and solid at that speed. I still haven't completely charged the battery, and don't have enough speed runs to verify the speedo with GPS. I can say that the speedo and GPS agree at 25mph.

Andy

@Andy - lol! Off topic but Im laughing as I share your inquisitiveness 'to know whats going on inside' !
However that has got the better of me a number of times - like that hub motor I could never put back together! (Warning - Brushless Hub motors can be hard to take apart - and harder to put together again)...

LOL - that brings back memories of the first time I removed the recoil starter from the top of an outboard boat engine...about five feet of spring going 'sproing-oing-oing-oing' across the garage. I'm 46 now, but still remember how happy my folks were when I was able to put things back together..and how much happier they were when the things actually worked afterward. :)

However, what is stunning about the Vectrix is acceleration. The vehicle produces 20,000 Watt or 28hp with close to 50 nm tork and you can feel it. It does feel like a motorcycle with about 500cc, like the Yamaha I previously owned.

The acceleration is only good once the Vectrix is faster than 45km/h.

From a standing start it feels more like a 50cc moped!

I certainly recommend a test drive to anyone who is waivering.

I would also insist on a very short test drive on the actual bike to be bought.

I could hear the difference in gear box noise when I observed another Vectrix just riding a few meters inside the garage. It had a good gearbox, but the one in my Vectux is one of the bad ones. Very annoying noise levels! And the noisy gearboxes are not rare, there have been several reports on V and other forums about the significant noise level differences.

Thanks Mik - that's another difference. The 5000Li has a 5000W brushless hub motor - no gearbox.

Let's keep sharing our experiences since we are clearly all in this together. The more butts move onto an electric bike - which ever it may be - the better for our planet. That's what's so great about this site. I have learned so much reading all the posts and look forward each day to reading more. One day, hopefully in my lifetime, batteries will power a bike for several hundred miles before a charge. Clearly electric motors without clucthes and gearing are way superior to combustion engines coupled to a transmission.

hi yeh i think the same take a look my blogs . they are comming soon at least 100 miles at the moment ??????????? kev

Let's keep sharing our experiences since we are clearly all in this together. The more butts move onto an electric bike - which ever it may be - the better for our planet. That's what's so great about this site. I have learned so much reading all the posts and look forward each day to reading more. One day, hopefully in my lifetime, batteries will power a bike for several hundred miles before a charge. Clearly electric motors without clucthes and gearing are way superior to combustion engines coupled to a transmission.

Harry, yeah, that's exactly why we are running this site and is the purpose I had in mind in setting up this site. I'm glad you agree.

BTW I thought your last sentence was very, uh, gave me some interesting food for thought: http://www.7gen.com/blog/20090207/25432-electric-vehicles

People still prefer gasoline because they can go 300 to 500 miles
without stopping, and "filling up" takes just a few minutes.

hi all . well good discution and was thinking that the hub motor in the rear wheel is very efficient in deed think coold be aprox 90% but not too shour how you would work this out.?
as probbley as its so direct and han no slaves running off it like lepton/ sepratre motor with other mounting brackets and chains /sprockets =less waight as well as other things .but this is what made me do this blog just thinking . back years ago i used to race model remote control cars ofcorse electric powerd but .THATS WHERE THE PROBBLEM IS.???????
nobody has ever thought of this i don't think so well with fomular one the tecnology for these have exploded on to cars from pulse injection systems abs reaction control ebd .
carbon fiber tecnology the list goes on and on .this is becouse the teams are so driven to win and the whole wold are watching and also manifactures are wanting it on there cars as a selling tool. and with electric model electric cars i used to race the tecnologey was so fast pace that it was like computers .whenit was as old as 6 months it was old hat.
and the battrey ballincing systems have all come from model cars and thats a fact as .as well as cell capasitys its now masive but you no what i found that aprox just over 8 /10 years
ago .the more the capacity of the cells the more advanced cell management system needed to be and had to be discharged so slowley that the cell could only could be used aprox every three days but the power was so fenominal but the cells was very frigile needed to be managed so much and there for had to buy twice as many as couldn't use these expensive cells .over and over as had done before . i once had few probblems with some cells and that left me with just two cell packs used in one full day sanyo cells these babys just got hammed all day charge up to full capasity and raced these cells lasted till end of race race was 4 min aprox and they was totally flat then leave it to stand for aprox 8/12 this pack was hot then get it back on charge fully charge it and same again this is what you call total abuse .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but all i could do some times to get racing . and what these cars did was end of race if they was totaly flat that was good as you had used every bit of the cars technology to just get it over the line this was efficent and .what the thing that we dont think about is gearing as in electric scooters as in model cars the gearing was one of the most inportant deciding factores to racing and dont think that i relised that so much as i do now thinking back as the lower / smaller pinion /gear wheel on the motor the lower gear quicker setting off the line and the less drain on the battery .but the flip side is that car= too slow ........
so. too high geared the car setting off the line was slow on set off thus acting like the car was hevey than it was / move power drained to get the car moving .so in allessance to high /to low gearing so needed to be matched to the cells correctley . so car aside thought that i have thought that the the tecnology for scooters petrol/ electric is at the moment pan'ts i think ok
bit left behind in the wold .i would challange this with anyone .as me and my son wont have another electric scooter for a wile and has just got a petrol scooter . shame on him !!!!!
as we was talking and i said that on the leaflat that he showed me it aws a Peugeot scooter 50cc and said in the brochure that this scooter would do 70/ 90 to the gallon this is rubish i said
he said why dad. well son i had aprox three difrent mopeds aprox 20 odd years ago and that they would do then 100/ 120 to the gallon and acheve 30 mph .
in my opinion scooter tecnology has stood still ??????????
and the electric scooter at the moment tecnology is moving at a snail pace ..
i think that i may have it !!!! over 100+ mile range 1. all alloy scooter these scooters need to be start off super light. 2.all plastic super thin and thu use of colerd stocking material like womens tites stick with me its not a wind up. as behind the stocking material there would be lots of super light upright wind genaraters. lots doted all over the scooter.
as to use the wast'ed energy that we so frelley let wiz pased our heads but we has made it in the first place so why not recapture it .oooooooooooooo god think its gonna be great.
3. use were ever possable solar panels as i know this defo works as see my ( youtube otleyshev68 ) dubble manafactures range hahaha yeh and with two on the scooter evt 4000e.
4 super light latest lithion ion packes but some how make these into the frame and then can carry more cells . 5 have more kind of efficient system regen that is totally ajustable 6 and some how have a changeable gear system as when traveling on the flat the system would be like a 6 th cruse gear and from the lights a supper low gear . 7 total led system.
8 in the tyres resistance squashing tecnologey that when rider on scooter and the momentom moving forward this genarates power .
so i recon with the people that are on the site i/e electro phisiosistes macanics and engeneeres and manifactures all types and desiners we could do it i would bet any omount of money that if
we all put out heads to gether a powerfull scooter capable of 100/180 miles is achevable .. would be intrested what other people think to this .. kev lets get it built ..yehh

Hi Greg,

I'm in Ann Arbor, MI - closer than Iowa or San Antonio :)

I've ridden an XM-3500 an "XM-4500" and a Vectrix - but not an XM-5000. (The XM-4500 is likely close in performance specs to the XM-5000 it's just an XM-3500 we upgraded with different motor, controller and more batteries).

Out of those first three the Vectrix is certainly the best overall bike. It's acceleration is better and it's top speed is rock solid - you can feel that it's certainly speed limited (not power limited like the XM's) - in other words you're accelerating and then hit a spot where the bike says "no more". Unlike the XM's where you wring every last drop of acceleration out of the available power. It's also a very solid and well put together bike and in general much better thought out than the XM's (it's also a good 200lbs heavier than an XM!)

But it is $4000 more.

The XM's aren't all bad. But, I think you have to be a bit more self-sufficient and have appropriate expectations when you buy an XM. You'll likely want to fit a BMS and you may have to shake out a few "bugs". There are far less tales of woe with Vectrix issues than XM issues - but most issues can be sorted out. The worst "horror story" for the Vectrix probably belongs to Mik. "horror stories" for the XM are easier to find - but in general the owners of the bikes I've sold (around 20 in total) ended up satisfied.

If you were buying a new car would you buy a Ford or a BMW? Both will get you from A to B - but there's a large difference in cost. There's room for both in the market. It's the same with the XM and the Vectrix.

If you want to take a trip to Ann Arbor you can ride my XM's and there's a scooter dealer in Ypsilanti (15 miles down the road) that sells Vectrii.

Now, to be fair to the XM-5000 - our "XM-4500" is not directly comparable. Like garygid mentions the XM-5000 comes from a different factory than the XM-3500 - however the basic chassis is the exact same.

Oh, and if you do come to Ann Arbor we might show you our bike that we're hoping to have available in the summer...

For performance figures and comparison see here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5624-performance-comparisons-vespa-250-vectrix-xm3500-amp-xm4500

For details on our upcoming bike see here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5456-coming-2009-new-maxi-scooter-revolution-electric-vehicles

Drop me a line at john [at] evmfg.com if you're interested in stopping by.

BTW - we will be launching an updated website with much more info sometime this month. If other folks are interested in the "factory tour" let me know and I'll see what we can work out.

All the best. And happy riding whatever you choose!

I might add one more difference to consider namely the charger. On my daily commute to work with the Vectrix things are easy. Just retrive the cord from under the seat and plug into the 110V outlet in my parking garage, same at home or when I visit friends. No need to carry the power supply and messs with connectors or extension cords. It may just be convenience but if I get stranded I will find someone with a 110V outlet for sure. Also, the whole charging process is very well worked out and controlled now. The Vectrix turns on and measures battery temperature. If too high the fans go on and the unit waits the preprogrammed time. The is bulk charges and after that once again it cools. Then comes the top of charge and it cools again afterwards. Since all cooling is done from the batteries the final step is to inject just the last bit of current taken from the battery, a step that takes just a few minutes. Finally, every 12h the unit equalizes all batteries. I must say that i like the carefree nature of this beast. I just plug her in and enjoy riding.

AndyH has looked at both the 5000Li and the 3500Li and determined that the frames are NOT the same. The rear shocks and their attachments are different, and there are visible differences in the center stands, battery boxes, and frames.

AndyH has looked at both the 5000Li and the 3500Li and determined that the frames are NOT the same. The rear shocks and their attachments are different, and there are visible differences in the center stands, battery boxes, and frames.

The swing arm and battery box are likely very different. However, I'd be surprised if the frame is different. The difference of the swing arm is significant (including how the swing arm is mounted to the frame). So, I'd love to see details of the XM-5000Li swing arm and I'd be happy to post detailed pictures of the XM-3500Li swing arm (including suspension mounting and frame mounting details).

However, the center stand and battery box aren't very significant with regard to how the bike will ride and handle.

Look for differences in how the frame is constructed and how the front end geometry is different between an XM-3500Li and an XM-5000Li and then I'll "believe you" that the frames are different in a way that is meaningful.

BTW, please be careful with nomenclature as well - AFAIK, in usual motorcycle engineering terms the rear swing arm is not considered part of the frame. In this context (and the context I was using) the frame is the main metal structure of the bike with nothing else attached. FYI, as far as I know the Vectrix (like Vespas) use a "uni-body" design whereas the XM's / EVDs / rEV1 use a tubular frame. Generally speaking that makes Vectrii and Vespas heavier but stiffer.

Now the differences have to be 'meaningful' :)

Fork angle appears to be very similar.

The battery boxes are very different. The center-frame cross tube on the 3500 is a 'horseshoe' shape. The 5000 cross tube is straight across and forms the break and the step between the fore and aft battery boxes. The 3500 battery box is one level front to back.

Plastic parts appear the same from 20', but are different up close. I can't confirm they're made in a different factory, but I can confirm they come from different molds/tooling. The process to 'date stamp' the parts is different as well, that strongly suggests different factories.

2009 XM-3500Li cross tube and center stand mount

2009 5000Li underseat tubing VS. 2009 3500Li underseat tubing (Maybe one was made on the right side of the factory?!)

3500:

5000:

There are differences in weld quality and the way parts are assembled. The under seat storage pans are attached differently - there are threaded weldments on the 5000 that are on the 3500.

I could see a situation where each of these frames is assembled on a similar tool that locates the critical locations, but it's apparent that the 3500 and 5000 factories chose different ways to 'solve' the frame puzzle.

Andy

Now the differences have to be 'meaningful' :)

I know, I'm a real pain aren't I?

Hmmm, OK it does sound like they do come from different "frame factories" - fair enough (I do apologize for my skepticism - all these bikes look so darn similar!)

When you say weld quality appears different - is this weld quality on the swing arm and battery box (which is done by the "EV Factory") or welding on the frame not related to the conversion process (which is done by the "Frame Factory"). All this might seem a little pedantic (sorry folks!) - however, we're interested in both the quality of the "frame" and the "conversion process". We know for sure that the 3500 and 5000 have different conversion processes, and now, from what you and Gary have posted we know the frames ARE different.

The quality of each (frame and conversion) are important. Andy - do you have any feel for which frame is "better"?

BTW - the only reason I bought up the XM3500 in this XM5000 vs Vectrix thread is because I have a 3500, a 4500 and there's a Vectrix dealer 10 miles down the road. So, if someone wanted to compare bikes Ann Arbor is the place to be! ;)

Yeah, I wondered if anyone noticed weld quality. I noticed on my xm3500li that at the attach point of the battery box(in back) one of the tabs that attch it is welded only part way. It makes me wonder what I can't see. It's solid just not great quality.

Bill

I'm coming in at the tail end of this discussion, but I have a Vectrix I purchased in late July 2008. After some initial problems with the Motor Controller, which eventually got sorted out after several months in the shop, I have to say I am very happy with the bike (maxi-scooter). I commute 11 miles on the freeway to and from work every day (22 miles total). I can make it there and back on a single charge. That ride includes up and over a small mountain both ways. I can also charge at work, which I usually do so I can do errands at lunchtime. I have almost 3000 miles on the bike and it performs flawlessly every day. Max speed (indicated) is about 64 MPH, which is fine for my freeway commute. Plus it maintains that speed up the mountain...plenty of torque. I would disagree with a previous poster that said the Vectrix only has pickup over 45 mph. I get lots of torque right off the line all the way up to 64 mph whether on level ground or up an incline. My only beef is that I would like to have at least a 70 mph top end...although I know that would sacrifice range with this setup. I like the handling and weight of the bike as it is very stable and comfortable at freeway speeds.

I have also been to visit Todd at Electric Motorsports recently. The GPR-S is a nice light sports bike. By the way he has six of those units available for sale right now. He is putting BMS in all the GPR-S he ships now. He has done a lot of custom bikes for people and can build pretty much anything you want at a very reasonable price, because he is a major distributor of electric motors and equipment for electric vehicles. The parts business is his main business and he has been in it for several years. So he gets the parts for his bikes cheap and can customize all you want. I'm looking for a second electric motorcycle to keep up in the Bay Area (I live in Southern California) and I'll probably have Todd at EMS build it.

2009 5000Li underseat tubing VS. 2009 3500Li underseat tubing (Maybe one was made on the right side of the factory?!)

Andy

I was wondering about that too. My 3500 is the same way. I wondered if they were all like that or if I just got a lemon. I thought maybe the frame was messed up and they just improvised to make it work.

As an electric scooter supplier from China for 4 years, we still don't think the electric motorcycle more than 3000 watt quality are perfect or mature...especially on the controller technology. I know there are 80A work current inside the controller, that big current make the controller and motor hot, it can work for a while to get that high speed with that big current, but can not work all the time until the battery exhaust... once the battery work, its voltage will get lower and lower.

so don't mislead by those so called high power motorcycle.we know our China technology level for those more than 3000 watt or even high power motorcycle..mature products still need improvement .