Why did Vectrix fail?

Got my V one year ago now, get it for 6900 euros after accepting getting rid of my old motorbike. 4200 km in one year and it's my main transportation mean. Makes financial sense for me: no electricity cost (part of it through my home solar panels installation with a free complement at work), less insurance cost, no initial taxes and for the time being no maintenance at all (I skip the maintenance, just have a regular look to see if everything is in the right place :-). No loss of range for now (I have a very good test for that: coming back from work fully charged requires approximatively one bar or less: still the same today). Reasonable range: 60-65 km. All in all compared to my bike if the V is still on for 2 more years finance should be ok. Cause of Vectrix failure:
1-definitely too expensive: At 4000 euros many people around me will have bought the V because it offers the right commuting range for the region (<40km)
2-very poor marketing here in France: no answers to emails, no accessories available. Same for the dealers treatment: no answer to phone calls from the Paris distributors..I went there once and try to discuss with the people there but although I was one of their few customers they seem not interested in any suggestion...
3-sure having concentrated on the V, improving it, will have been a better strategy. Allowing for alternate batteries as technology evolves will have been good. The cycle part is ok (at leat mine is for the moment) and should be able to last so offering battery upgrades will have been right
4-offering service to customize the bike will have been a great idea: I for sure will have been interested in a "slow" charging mode to allow more charging from my solar batteries

Now I do hope that Vectrix will start again, focusing on V and servicing the running one.

Jmap, i hope your contact can help Mik out and reffering to the batteries, it is good to know if there is a possibility of getting them replaced, it wouldnt mind going to portugal to get them:)
By the way did you get your grips changed?

Onlytime and Marcopolo, if i had to choose, i would like to believe in your knowledge of the Company and its future and might even buy another Vectrix (For Company use and for incase mine failed, also now cheaper with a 1.200€ official rebate from Spanish Gov. PLAN MOVELE). But also, i wouldnt invest in the Company and would take notice of Marcopolo´s experience and Knowledge of the situation. He seems to be a true Owner and Investor and has shared Knowledge with us that can be comfirmed.
So ill leave it at this, if your fantastic news and events happen to become real and Marcopolo´s (realistic) point of you, you manage to change then it would be a good sign for the rest of us not so "close" to the company to have some faith.
You two seem to have better knowledge than the rest of us and interestingly are very opposed. Its very interesting to have an optimistic view and a realistic view.
please convince eachother and give us the answer.
Thankyou very much both for sharing.

To all Vectrix Owners, Its been fantastic and priceless to have the First "Highway" Electric Scooter.
The sensations of being able to experience the possibility of Electricity as an alternative is priceless, the green experience is a feelgood factor, the unvibrating, Smellless and no noise experience is a luxury, The technology is fascinating and most of all the potential of the whole EV matter is unquestionalbly unmatched in Bright Future. Lets just hope Vectrix is in that Future as the Pioneer.

Just to point out i have had my Vectrix since the 2nd of Feb and have clocked 4.200 kms on it, using it everyday doing a round trip of 55km(and still 5 bars left) and without having a problem with its usability.The only problem was an uneven and high gearbox noise and when i exposed the problem, my gearbox was changed in no time(waited 10 days and fixed in 2)the new gearbox sounds fine for the moment. So that is a very good service, from my personal experience,with Vectrix and the Spanish importer Goingreen.com . Also pending for replacement of the throttle due to a small glitch(that doesnt affect the ride or the usability)and waiting to get the sports windshield accesory.So far everything is rolling.
Rag

You two seem to have better knowledge than the rest of us and interestingly are very opposed.

Don't confuse confidence with competence!

If it is true that onlytime is better informed than the rest of us, than s/he has not divulged any of this information to us.

So far s/he has made only claims without giving any factual backup for them.

I do have some information but can not share as the law firm I work at is working for one of our clients and we can not divulge specific information. But I can tell you this when this deal is completed in the next few days the compay will be as strong as the strongest companies out there. Plus the brand will live on and the problems that existed before will be fixed. I was doing research when I found this site for the client and I just do not want them to have to change everyones minds about it being dead or not. They have done extensive planning over the weekend in order to gt things moving. That is all I can say if I am lying may I die.

1 - lack of advertising. No one that I've met, in the year that I've had my Vectrix, had ever heard of the company.
2 - the pricing wasn't stated in a way to compare to how other companies are doing it. Specifically - everytime you hear someone mention the Vectrix it's always followed up with, "too bad it's so expensive". And the reply? Silence. They should have mentioned the price after rebate. I tell people I paid a little of $7K for mine (I got the '07 for $8,750 and received the CA rebate $1,500). They also should have spelled out how it saves money by not requiring oil, or tune-ups. With the cost of electricity, compared to gasoline, the Vectrix literally pays for itself. Why didn't they flood the TV/radio ads with this info? I'm certain more people would have bought the Vectrix....

People accuse Vectrix of 'not enough marketing'. They have certainly done more marketing than any other EV scooter company I am aware of and what I saw of it was very slick. They succeeded in creating a 'brand', as evidenced by opinions and attitudes here. Yes, loads of people have never heard of them, but that's not surprising - there are a lot of people - getting to all of them is a really long job.

I bought a cheap chinese scooter becase it was 1/6th the price (and I didn't need to take a test to ride it). I did this thinking that I might well upgrade to something like a Vectrix if I found electric commuting satisfactory (and I do). Others at work who were interested found even my $1200 Erato too expensive and went for a petrol moped at $800.
So price is an issue and even an awful lot of slick marketing struggles to bridge that gap. The point is that the Chinese suppliers don't need a lot of marketing - their stuff is priced to sell itself.

Somone else suggested that an EV doesn't need/shouldn't have software. That's just wrong. Anything beyond the most basic brushed-motor machine has some software in its controller. Vectrix have taken this to a fancier/more integrated level, but that's just the way things are headed. Bikes will generally develop in this direction. Many owners of a dumb bike buy a cycleanalyst after while (more software). Fitting them to start with makes a lot of sense an anything that isn't super-basic.

I'm not sure exactly where Vectrix went wrong. Too much expansion looks like one of them. And ultimately poor sales. Maybe they peaked just a bit too early. EVs are the future of commuting - I don;t think there is much doubt about that, but a great deal of the populace hasn't noticed yet, or isn't willing to pay the up-front price. I think things like CMC's approach are more likely to be a big success, but they have a huge marketing and then expansion hill to climb...

In relation to the comments posted by those hopeful that Vectrix can be resurrected. It is true that at least seven companies are performing due diligence studies. The closest and most promisingly credentialed is Harley-Davidson. What is not clear is what Harley-Davidson, will do with Vectrix if they acquire all or part. The main attraction Vectrix has for Harley Davidson is the Vectrix IP would allow Harley to cheaply qualify for R&D alternate energy money from Uncle Sam. The deal may never eventuate, because the full extent and complexities of the Vectrix financial situation may not yet be fully understood by Harley-Davidson's shareholders. There will be those enthusiasts who will rejoice at these talks, and believe H-D is a white Knight. Now, I would love to see Vectrix survive as a product of the legendary H-D!! But realiatically, I am concerned that H-D may simply take the US Grant money and never produce another Vectrix,(certainly not service obligations), or worse Vectrix financial woes destroy an already struggling H-D.

Either way we live in exciting times !!

marcopolo it is not Harley buying Vectrix I promise you that. As for the financial issues the company currently has will not transfer and be a burden to the next company as it can be a brand and assett only purchase. The corporation does not need to live on for Vectrix to survive only the brand with the IP for the inovations need to survive. In other words it is not as dire as most people think it is. The corporation after sale of assetts can file bankruptcy and go away with the brand name and the scooters living on.

Actually, in Vectrix case it's not that easy. The action you are talking about is called asset stripping and divestiture. I am not sure what Law Firm you work at, or from which Law School you graduated, but the circumstances you are describing require a long process. Firstly the ownership of the Vectrix IP, is not very clear cut. It may be owned by VCorp US but this could be challenged by the creditors of the UK public company, or even the Polish factory. Now it may be that after following due process, the receiver/ liquidator/administrator/Judge, or even a creditors meeting may permit an orderly sale of assets. I think this is the scenario you are trying to describe.

The trouble is, that it is not just accumulated debt that killed the Vectrix Business. Vectrix was certainly very badly managed, but in the end new owner would find himself in exactly the same position as Vectrix, with a product that is just too expensive and performance limited to gain widespread market acceptance! Unless Vectrix is bought by a large well capitalized manufacturer, it is very doubtful that anyone smaller could manufacture sufficient numbers to be profitable. You see although I am a real big fan of the Vectrix bike, and EV's in general, I am realistic enough to realize that without really high volume sales a product like Vectrix can never survive.

It's not just making the bike, you have to cover all the other costs of running a corporation. Unless you have real experience, you would be astonished at just how much this overhead costs. The inexperienced (and even experienced) seek China as a panacea. Well, yes somethings can be made cheaper in china, but all the rest of the costs are in the marketplace, and that's usually in the the expensive west!

This is not being pessimistic, just practical! I would love Harley or Honda, or any really competent manufacturer to pick up Vectrix, but I just can't see it happening. Eventually, just like EV cars, a major maker will produce a Vectrix like product, and it in time it will be come popular and successful. Then you will be able to show people your pioneering Vectrix.

In the meantime I'm afraid Vectrix, like the Studebaker Avanti, Jowett Javelin, Rover gas turbine, is destined for the enthusiasts swap meet.

What you are speaking of is a 363 sale, that would be the case if the US company had been traded which you will have to agree it was not. They kept their entities seperate which was a smart move. The creditors are in the loop of the sale as to the company purchasing them they are better situated with capital than any other green company I can think of and that includes Tesla with their goverment loan. Understand this is not our first rodeo or theirs we have done many similair things in the past that have been held up in legal proceedings and I am sure if tested it to will hold up. Right now it is in the publics interest that the company not be allowed to completely fold without a back stop as if you consider the parts needed for bikes on the road currently and other benefits there is no president to hold up a sale and once again that is if they are receiving a fair liquidated price. Now GM had to go through what they did as they were a US public company and there were bond holders which is different than a stock holder and other convertibles on the market and held not just by banks and lending institutions but by individuals and goverment entities. I know you will argue to the end on this but at the end of the day when this all shakes out I am telling you I will be spot on. We have spent much of the day doing different things in order to make this work from our side and it will be up to others in the end to decide. As for them ever being profitable the company believes they can be but that is not my area I am no economist nor have I ever ran a factory I can do what most do and arm chair quarterback but I will leave it to them to run they have a lot more money than me so they must get some things right at running factories.

reikiman I agree with you a 100% on what you just said about niche market. After all is that not what all green companies are doing right now catering to the niche market and waiting for an expansion. Think about when cars came out 100 years ago actually a little more it was a niche market how many people said to expensive they will not catch on no one can afford that. This is the infancy folks this is just the build up to what is a requirement for the world as a whole in the future. Microwaves Litton made those in the 70s anyone remember that they cost over 1000 for a microwave they would never catch on I think everyone can see where I am going.

In a Spanish website they speak about BMW wanting to build Maxiscooters to add up to their line. But Electric Maxiscooters so they dont compete with their other products. Maybe they want Vectrix?

That was my first guess also. They even have a concept:

That was my first guess also. They even have a concept:

With a muffler!

BMW would seem to be a more natural partner than H-D. They are already targeting a more upscale market, people who can afford to throw $10k at a commuter or a toy if they want to. And it matches the 'high-tech' and 'well-engineered' image that BMW has. I'll also note that the closest dealer (to me) for Vectrix bikes is the BMW Motorcycles of Atlanta shop.

That was my first guess also. They even have a concept:

With a muffler!

That's not a muffler - it's a Mr. Fusion.

BTW: That's a great looking concept. Much more motorcycle-ish than most maxi-scooters (probably due to the more exposed back wheel?) - I like it! (Buy me one and I'll electrify it for you...)

Dear all,

I just joined the forum after having read your intesting posts and to take part to this interesting discussion.
I am a scooter maniac, I commute every day using my 125cc riding about 30 Km/day. In the last few years I had different brands, from Piaggio to Peugeot to Suzuki. Last year I decided to buy a new scooter (a GT usual!) and I did consider the Vectrix option.
Here my business case

Vectrix
Sale price about 11.000€
Electricity to run the scooter (approx) 1€/100km
6 months check (repetitive as per manufacturer recommendation) 15€
Batteries under warranty 5 Yrs (2000€ new pack)

Suzuki Burgman K8 125
Sale price about 3500€
Consumption (based on my experience) 2.9lt/100Km = 3.5€/100Km
Oil + Filter change = 20€ every 4000 Km (done by myself)
Engine duration (estimation) 25.000 Km

The rest of maintenance can be considered similar (e.g. brake pads)

That makes a price delta of about 7500€ and a yearly runnin costs delat of about 150€ (6000 KM base + ). No difference in maintenance (2*15€ for Vectrix and 1.5*20 for Burgman).
I would have needed 50 Years to make even (battery change & engine change not considered)

This is why I run a Burgman and maybe why Vectrix is gone...

Dear Aldo.
There's some mistakes in your calculations.

1-The price of a Vectrix in europe was 8890€ (vat included), plus special aid from the Spanish goverment of 1200 euros (movele plan). Other govermetns offer similar aids.
2- The price of one recharge is 30 cents (in catalunya) about 0,5 euros every 100 km, instead of the 1 euro you are suggesting.
3- Vectrix uses regenerative braking, , brake pads maintenance is pretty different.
3- You don't take into account the "peak oil" trend: within the next 10 years the cheap abundant oil whe are used to will be gone away. Oil price can easely reach 2-3 euros/liter within the next 5 years.
4- You cannot compare the experience of driving a motorcyle like the vectrix with a burgamann 125cc. It's like comparing this burgaman 125cc with the big brother 400cc.
You weren't looking for a vectrix, you were looking for a goelix taiga or a teycars cantabrico. TRry to make your calculations with these kind of electric scooters.

Ahi, ahi dando caña, defendiendo a Vectrox con dientes y uñas!
TRASALATION : There, there goes a hammering, defending Vectrix with teeth and nails!

vectrix has failed cos .
they should of asked for our help !!!!
we would have done it as we have a passion
well i eat breath and love e vehicles. and all that goes with them ....kev

I did not mean to open a flame, but make a rough estimation. Now if we want to be a little more precise I can tell you that:

I keep your 9000E price. There was an aid from the government of 400E, but the shipping cost from Paris (unique dealer in FR) was costing more... let's make it even. And I do not consider the 300E discount on the Burgman
I keep your 0.5E/100Km actual cost, but we have to compare with actual oil price (even KW may rise in the future...)
I add a 50E (just done) brake pads every 10.000 Km
This will change the brake even from 50 to about 20 years...

Finally the Vectrix cannot be compared to a Burghy 400.. with my old one I could touch 150Km/h and run 300Km...

Aldo, You cant really buy a Vectrix because of numbers or how green someone is, you really buy it because its innovation and a total new experience(Noise,Vibrations and many others, also the electric engine is limited to the Battery and if there is an Upgrade in the future Your same VX-1 can change from a "250cc" to a "500cc" and 0 to 100 in an EV is much faster than ICE, but you dont buy because it is cost effective, at least not untill someone has proved that it will dure 10 years. About the price of Oil, it will keep on going up and down(maybe nore for the up but..). But if we take on the petrol prices for thr future, there can be different points of view, maybe it goes up to cost 2€ or 3€ a litre and then people will buy EVs in mass because the world will want to turn to cheap electricity and then because of that there will lower demand for oil and guess what? The electricity price will rise dramatically and petrol will go down.
So maybe in 10 years time we will be paying 10€ for 100km in our Vectrix. Its all quite complicated and specially in these times were its difficult to predict the directions that things will follow.
I guess buying a Suzuki is a safer bet.But i wasnt trying to make a buissness buying my Vectrix, i wanted novelty,something that would suprise me ,something that i would think of not only as a transport, and many other romantic reasons i suppose. Not only i have got all that i have also experienced (for the moment) that it works, its cheap to maintain, its alot of fun,its green, and finally (according to latest news) i am driving a 100.000$ protoype!!!!

I did not mean to open a flame, but make a rough estimation. Now if we want to be a little more precise I can tell you that:

I keep your 9000E price. There was an aid from the government of 400E, but the shipping cost from Paris (unique dealer in FR) was costing more... let's make it even. And I do not consider the 300E discount on the Burgman
I keep your 0.5E/100Km actual cost, but we have to compare with actual oil price (even KW may rise in the future...)
I add a 50E (just done) brake pads every 10.000 Km
This will change the brake even from 50 to about 20 years...

Finally the Vectrix cannot be compared to a Burghy 400.. with my old one I could touch 150Km/h and run 300Km...

I think you are lost in this place. You can't understand the motivations and principles of these people...

Just a short example to you in your language. A friend of mine is paying a loan that is smaller amount than what he used to pay in gas for his Hayabusa (monthly). Clear enough?

It failed for the same reasons the EV-1 failed because the Vectrix is adequately powered and potentially maintenance free. If the Vectrix had been perfected it would become the standard for short range 2 wheel transportation, who would want anything else and that's why it wasn't perfected. If it was mass produced using less moving parts and being maintenance free it would cost less to buy and last longer, I guess that's why GM scraped there EV-1.

Ah yes, well I guess, we all should be prepared for a deluge of conspiracy theories following the collapse of Vectrix! Only to be quickly be followed by even more outlandish theories as to why mysterious "forces" conspired to prevent a successful resurrection.

You are, of course, quite correct, Vectrix didn't mean to go broke. Imprudence and Egotistical bad management didn't help, but both the business plan and the product itself was flawed. It took a combination of factors to destroy Vectrix. Many of the most ardent supporters of Vectrix have confused my comments. The main thrust of my criticism has been against the way the corporation was mismanaged. But I do recognise that to profitably implement a high volume business plan like Vectrix aimed for, vith a product like Vectrix, you need the deep pockets and logistical assistance of an organisation the size and determination of Toyota.

I will confess that I am regrettably lacking in Buddhist theology, but he sounds very valid in relation to engineering maintenance!

Despite my re-interpretation that Vectrix did not really fail, because they achieved more than anyone before, here is a re-write of an earlier explanation I wrote in the Collaborative Handbook (I replicate it here because it is highly relevant to this topic):

I am becoming more and more convinced that the Vectrix VX1 NiMH battery is fatally flawed. Not because of NiMH, but because of poor design. Their business model might have been bad , but it's the failure of the heavy, expensive and dangerous (due to high voltage) batteries that really caused the most trouble and service costs.

I meant this: It seems to me that the battery problems will not be able to be solved (by whoever might take over Vectrix) without a major redesign of the battery.

This is not an inherent problem of the NiMH chemistry of the battery, but a problem related to poor thermal management of the battery and practically absent individual cell management.
Any chemistry other than NiMH would get destroyed in short order with this treatment. That is why other battery types usually have a BMS! NiMH can take the abuse a lot longer, but it is not good for them, and they fail after several thousand km where other battery types would have failed after a few full charge cycles under the same, mismanaged conditions!

The approach to equalize NiMH cells by C/10, C/15 or C/20 overcharging used to be the accepted way to do this, but it is the wrong way and is not being done in the successful NiMH batteries in the Prius and the RAV4EV, AFAIK.
This type of over charging to equalize NiMH cells needs to be kept to a minimum to ensure long battery life. Deep discharging also needs to be minimized, or better, completely avoided.

In an NiMH battery the cells need to be either actively monitored and balanced on an individual or near-individual basis, like Li chemistry cells, or the development of imbalance must be prevented as much as possible.

The Vectrix battery fails on both these requirements!

A) There is no active monitoring, let alone transfer of charge between individual cells. All cells get charged with the same current, all the time. No balancing other than over-charging is possible. Only three sub-sets of cells are being voltage monitored: 27 cells, 48 cells, 27 cells.

B) The thermal management is flawed in several ways, causing the predictable development of severe cell imbalance within the battery. This imbalance is usually completely "invisible " to the stock-BMS because of the particular arrangement of cells in three layers within the battery. Each voltage-monitored sub-string (27-48-27) is made up of equal amounts of cells from the top, middle and bottom layer of the battery. The cell imbalance develops due to this "stratification" of the battery in three layers, and usually each monitored sub-string contains about equal numbers of low, medium and high State-of-Charge (SOC) cells; therefore they all "look" the same to the stock-BMS and the battery appears to be balanced even when it is severely imbalanced.
The main cause of the imbalance which develops are temperature differences between cells.
Batteries use chemical reactions to produce electricity. Chemical reactions happen faster at higher temperatures. The self discharge of batteries is a chemical reaction and happens faster at higher temperatures. (NiMH cells are particularly affected by this phenomenon, but I think it affects all types of batteries to some degree.)
If some NiMH cells are a lot warmer than others, they will spontaneously loose their charge much faster. If those cells are much warmer often or even most of the time, then they will soon be severely undercharged in comparison to the usually cooler cells, even if the pack gets charged and discharged regularly. The higher temperature of the affected cells also ages those cells faster.
What happens next depends on the exact circumstances:
If the Vectrix is driven further than the low-SOC cells can go, and if no recent equalization charge has occurred, then the usually warmer, low-SOC cells will start to get charged in reverse when they are empty before the rest of the pack. The voltage of the pack then drops very suddenly and causes the "disappearing bars syndrome". This heats and damages the empty cells further.
If the pack gets recharged before the Low-SOC cells are empty, then the High-SOC cells (the ones in the usually cooler positions in the battery) will get over-charged. The stock-BMS can only see the average voltage of the pack, so it continues to pump current into the battery because the sum of the Low-SOC and High-SOC voltages is still below the desirable end voltage at the time during charging when the High-SOC cells are full. In extreme cases this might lead to bulging of the High-SOC cells and possibly even to venting of hydrogen and oxygen gases with resulting severe capacity loss. It always causes heating up of the High-SOC cell and ages them quicker.
In most cases there will probably be some damage to the usually-warmer-Low-SOC-cells from reverse charging, and some damage to the usually-cooler-High-SOC-cells from over charging.
The whole pack ages relatively quickly that way, but a few cells will be the weakest link and develop runaway damage due to their eventually permanently reduced capacity.

Frequent equalization charges, as introduced in the later firmware versions, can prevent this from happening in mild conditions, and will age the whole pack gently but steadily, as mentioned before.
In extremely hot weather, especially when parking daily in full sun, these equalization charges will in my opinion most likely be insufficient to prevent severe imbalance.
In addition, it will be difficult to "offload" the heat created during the equalization charges, because it is usually hot all the time during such weather events. There is simply no cool air available when it is needed most!

Before this post gets bigger than "Ben-Hur", I better get to answer Johns question!

What I wanted to ask for was clarification on your feeling that high voltage was a mistake and feeds into your conclusion of a bad design.

I did not mean it that way, but I can see how it can easily be misunderstood.

What I meant is this: Because the battery is very heavy and has a dangerous voltage, it is expensive to transport replacement batteries and suitably trained personnel to work on the batteries. You cannot tell owners or untrained people to service the batteries or exchange them, because sooner or later someone would get killed because they do not have the training and/or skill to do it.
As a corporation, you could not even expect to get away without multiple workers compensation claims and lawsuits for back injuries, if you asked your technicians to fly to the scooters which need service, and lift the batteries out of the scooter without a hoist. The rear battery is heavier than the front battery and needs to be lifted out of the frame to replace the main fuse! About 47kg, no center stand in most cases, lifting the battery out with the scooter leaning on the side stand, it's no fun at all! One wrong move could damage your back, or the motor controller!

I believe that mature future EV's will have lower "hardware-voltages" and higher supply voltages to the actual motor. What I mean with this is a battery that produces no more than maybe 50V max, whatever the best compromise between actual safety and safety rules and regulations might be. The highest voltage that allows many people with a bit of training, preferably the owners, to perform simple repairs and maintenance without risk of electrocution, and legally! And small battery modules which can be lifted by hand, one by one, weighing no more than 20kg each.

In case of a multi-g deceleration event this would also make it much safer for rescue workers to peel the rider/driver out of the mangled remains of the EV.
Imagine using hydraulic cutting equipment to free bleeding passengers out of an EV when you know that there are 320V cables running somewhere through the twisted mess!

It might be much better to have a battery which only produces a lower "hardware-voltage" and then use some type of highly efficient transformer to turn it into a variable high voltage. This high voltage should instantaneously disappear whenever the EV is not operating normally.

The battery current would still be able to weld any metallic rescue equipment to the vehicle if the cables were cut, but the rescue workers would survive and could continue their efforts.

I can tell you I am not lost in space... I am simply being realistic. If you want to run a business you can start with people highly motivated and with good princples... but then you have to enlarge your target population and you have to deal with other people for which using 1 year of their savings for an ideal (for goot it might be) is simply not realistic...