72 volt scooter here in china

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robert93
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

I'm just suprised more havent figured out the game...... Dive into the pool of forums , one yells "Marco!" another yells "Polo!" Seriously, of all the scoots over there in China, how many of those brands are sold in the USA? Are the ones on the road over there built better than the ones exported to the USA?

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

There is no hope to end the off-topic rant...so I think I will get involved.

Marcopolo writes:

"I have four passports and spend most of my life travelling to every continent on the planet, including Antarctica! In most places,( with a few exceptions), 50cc or Emax styled Motor Scooters are unsuitable/dangerous vehicles and totally incompatible with the demands of modern traffic! Yes it's true that such vehicles can be ridden in traffic, but only at great inconvenience to the vast majority of other motorists."

If you travel alot, do you ever notice that there are differences in the way cities are constructed and run?

Of course there are large cites that are totally dominated by freeways which are not the best for scooters, but there are many larger older cities with masses of connected grid-style layout and scooters work fine there. No need to bother with the freeway. There is a more pleasant, direct route. Scooters don't inconvience motorists on these routes, because the top speed is 50 km/hr or 30 miles per hour. These inside-city speed limits are actually posted on the outskirts of the city: "Speed limit 50 km/hr unless otherwise posted."

Because my scooter can out-accelerate many cars, the only people being inconvienced are those who are actually breaking the law.

Now lets go to the many small towns in Mid-Western America...the kind of places that have a population of less than 5000 and there is still a main street populated with a few stores and a stop sign just about every block. In places like these, you can easily get around driving 30 miless an hour and most people do. You would be a social pariah if you drove faster in town. Scooters work fine here too. Outside of town, a scooter going 30 miles an hour down a gravel road doesn't bother anybody. After all, we are used to accomodating slower moving farm vehicles.

There are more exceptions than you realize and they encompass a greater number of people than you realize.

marcopolo
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

There is no hope to end the off-topic rant...so I think I will get involved.

Marcopolo writes:

"I have four passports and spend most of my life travelling to every continent on the planet, including Antarctica! In most places,( with a few exceptions), 50cc or Emax styled Motor Scooters are unsuitable/dangerous vehicles and totally incompatible with the demands of modern traffic! Yes it's true that such vehicles can be ridden in traffic, but only at great inconvenience to the vast majority of other motorists."

If you travel alot, do you ever notice that there are differences in the way cities are constructed and run?

Of course there are large cites that are totally dominated by freeways which are not the best for scooters, but there are many larger older cities with masses of connected grid-style layout and scooters work fine there. No need to bother with the freeway. There is a more pleasant, direct route. Scooters don't inconvience motorists on these routes, because the top speed is 50 km/hr or 30 miles per hour. These inside-city speed limits are actually posted on the outskirts of the city: "Speed limit 50 km/hr unless otherwise posted."

Because my scooter can out-accelerate many cars, the only people being inconvienced are those who are actually breaking the law.

Now lets go to the many small towns in Mid-Western America...the kind of places that have a population of less than 5000 and there is still a main street populated with a few stores and a stop sign just about every block. In places like these, you can easily get around driving 30 miless an hour and most people do. You would be a social pariah if you drove faster in town. Scooters work fine here too. Outside of town, a scooter going 30 miles an hour down a gravel road doesn't bother anybody. After all, we are used to accomodating slower moving farm vehicles.

There are more exceptions than you realize and they encompass a greater number of people than you realize.

This is the trouble with being selective when you misquote,out of context,to support your opinions. I have always stated that their are many cities and communities, which are ideally suited to light two-wheeled transport. In fact I have interests in a business which primarily rents light vehicles(mostly EV's).

But exceptions do not prove the rule! You may be an expert rider and quite comfortable with the performance of an underpowered two-wheeled vehicle, but the driver/operator of larger vehicles is not! The irrefutable fact is that even in a low population country, like Australia, with uncrowded roads, two-wheeled vehicles make up less than 4% of the traffic, but more than 45% of serious road injuries. These statistics correspond with most industrialised nations>, (except in Asia where the proportion of injury from the sheer volume of two-wheeled traffic is staggering. (of course the ratio is also different)) It must be said that not all these statistics are derived from light two-wheelers, I suspect that large motorcycles would make up a significant proportion of serious road injuries.

But, how anyone can justify advocating the promotion of small petrol powered scooters and mopeds, as a safe environmentally friendly form of transport, simply beggars belief!

I agree that bicycles, EV assisted or not are excellent recreational vehicles, and desirable practical transport, for some people, in a very limited number of communities and cities. But not to the exclusion of other traffic.

My main issue with light two-wheeled vehicles EV's is one of traffic compatibility and Safety. If such vehicles are to be tolerated then the riders should be compelled for there own sake and the cost to the community to be adequately insured and wear the most advanced safety apparel. ( Airbag jackets etc). This is not unreasonable, since they share the road with drivers whose vehicles are required have seat belts and tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment. In addition,the Auto Industry invests billions of dollars of research into road safety annually.

Lastly, the expenditure of public resources by politicians on catering to feel good impractical solution such as bike lanes for the cyclists, only diverts from the real issue of converting the transport industry from fossil fuelled vehicles to EV's.

As far as the speed limits are concerned, well yes, its true that some streets do have low speed limits, but that doesn't make compatibility any easier. In fact most drivers complain that these conditions promote misbehaviour by two-wheeled traffic seeking to squeeze between cars or weave through traffic, blindsiding drivers etc.. The cyclists would argue that he is entitled to break the law, and since he has no registration can't be easily apprehended. Imagine a motorist arguing that it was OK to speed, because he felt it safe?

As to the off-topic nature of this thread? Well, Mik is, as usual, quite correct! Some of the best threads develop a life of their own, long after the original subject had died out for lack of interest!! Some threads are a bit like conversations, the by-ways, and spontaneity of the changes in direction to be explored are most of the fun!

marcopolo

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Some of your arguement is a little odd. The list of countries and cities with unban speed limts of 50 km/hr is massive, it's not the exception, its more like the norm. I can provide a list if you want.

You write: "As far as the speed limits are concerned, well yes, its true that some streets do have low speed limits, but that doesn't make compatibility any easier."

Actually it does, lower speed limits and frequent and proper enforcement make it alot eaiser for both gas and electric scooters. One of the biggest problems we face is a motorist who can go faster than us and won't go the speed limit...One who seems intent on speeding and pushing us off the road. I see this first hand, far more often than the problems from the two wheelers that you describe.

From my standpoint, I am not the unsafe vehicle...but many of the speeding cars are. I am physically limited to the legal speed. I've been passed by cars on the wrong side of the road in school zones!

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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Some of your arguement is a little odd. The list of countries and cities with unban speed limts of 50 km/hr is massive, it's not the exception, its more like the norm. I can provide a list if you want.

You write: "As far as the speed limits are concerned, well yes, its true that some streets do have low speed limits, but that doesn't make compatibility any easier."

Actually it does, lower speed limits and frequent and proper enforcement make it alot eaiser for both gas and electric scooters. One of the biggest problems we face is a motorist who can go faster than us and won't go the speed limit...One who seems intent on speeding and pushing us off the road. I see this first hand, far more often than the problems from the two wheelers that you describe.

From my standpoint, I am not the unsafe vehicle...but many of the speeding cars are. I am physically limited to the legal speed. I've been passed by cars on the wrong side of the road in school zones!

I regularly face the same problem on a Vectrix. It does not matter how much power you have in your vehicle, if you try to stick to the speed limit (voluntarily or at full throttle) then there are car drivers willing to pass you in the most hazardous circumstances.

By the way, 50km/h speed limits are too high for many neighborhoods! 30km/h is often more appropriate and is used in many parts of Germany.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

PJD
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

thanks, DP.

So, Pittsburgh isn't the only city where scooter (electric or otherwise) users have no trouble with a max speed of 45 mph.

Yes, I do occasionally have right-wing-suburban, global warming denying, so-called "libertarian", SUV-driving, asshole Amerikkkans like Marcopolo driving well over the speed blaming me on my scooter for slowing them down, even though at every traffic light or stop sign, there are slow or stopped cars, trucks or buses in front of me.

And it is most decidedly NOT true that the current state of the technological superstructure of US society - especially transportation infrastructure - is the result of some kind of democratic "free market" clamor. You argument that if people wanted something else, the "market" in its wisdom would provide it, besides being trivial tautolgical nonsense, is also either profoundly naive, or, I think more likely, profoundly cynical and manipulative.

Your condescending blather suggests that you are some kind of rich-big-business-man. So, surely you are familiar with the 20th century work of Edward Bernays and the related works of Walter Lippman - fathers of the modern PR industry and mass media. You know - the guys who invented concepts like "manufacture of consent" and "necessary illusions", "elite consensus" and "the necessity of thought control in a democratic society".

A person's "free choice" is limited to what they are offered. And anyone with an open mind can see that the capitalists don't offer them doodly squat. You can bet that the only choices being offered in your so-called "free market" are those that will maximize profit and concentrate national and global wealth in fewer and fewer hands.

But there are at least a few of us who have rolled up our sleeves, and often in the face of open mocking derision, hate and even thrown-objects from people like marcopolo, continue to, largely alone, pursue sane transportation alternatives. I thank the Chinese, who have not yet quite figured out how Capitalism works for making the incredibly elegant and simple brushless hub motor, inexpensive controllers and affordable Lithium Iron Phosphate cell available to us working-class proles.

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Are you talking to me?

I am quite familiar with Bernays. I know what GM did to our city railways. But I am not as pessimistic about capitialism or our current world. I actually see the potential for a happy, beautiful world and it includes me on an electric scooter every nice day.

I would like to be on this nice scooter and would like to hear more about it:

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Marcopolo:

Some the things that you write are just not true:

"...they share the road with drivers whose vehicles are required have seat belts and tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment."

Most of the expensive safety equipment is optional. The ability to require "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" in car that doesn't cost much more than that amount when new is economically imposible.

Is there "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" in a new Nissan Versa? NO!

The whole car goes for U.S. $9,990, or with its $695 destination charge, $10,685!

A vehicle with "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" is not even a typical car.

Lost Cowboy in China
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

This is the scooter I am leaning towards. If I do decide on getting this one, i will give and indepth report on my experiences.

Johnny J
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

This is the scooter I am leaning towards. If I do decide on getting this one, i will give and indepth report on my experiences.

As far as I know, this kind of fast electric scooters are not allowed to drive in China.
For example Mountain Chen and EVD do only sell for export.

Have lived in Shanghai for a couple of years and have never seen anything but the "slow" type...

Regards

Johnny

Lost Cowboy in China
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Wow, if thats true I am so screwed.

marcopolo
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Marcopolo:

Some the things that you write are just not true:

"...they share the road with drivers whose vehicles are required have seat belts and tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment."

Most of the expensive safety equipment is optional. The ability to require "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" in car that doesn't cost much more than that amount when new is economically imposible.

Is there "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" in a new Nissan Versa? NO!

The whole car goes for U.S. $9,990, or with its $695 destination charge, $10,685!

A vehicle with "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" is not even a typical car.

In the words of another oft misquoted man, "there you go again"!

Aw, C'mon you can't have it both ways. First you critize me for not taking a world perspective then to prove a pedantic point you quote a US example of the cost of a low price economy model in US dollars. Not every vehicle on the road is a low cost economy model! But just to indulge even such an unfair point, I researched the cost to Nissan of safety features for Nissan Versa. It might surprise you to learn that these amounted to 21.8% of the total price of manufacture. Even then the cost of these features is subsidized by the trickle down effect from luxury models. In fact, nearly all auto makers economy models, rely upon subsidised development costs from the luxury models. Just look up the safety features required by most licencing authorities, then add up component costs, and you'll change your mind really quickly. Even old technology like Limited Slip Diffs, ESC, Airbags, crumple zones etc.. all add up. The manufactured cost of safety items on Lexus GS 460 amount to nearly 24% .
ticket price

You are equally wrong with your assertion that car safety features are optional. In most western nations, the features are compulsory! Some, such as seat belts, are heavily enforced.

But most disturbingly, I notice that no one has responded to my call for better rider protection. If you are puttering along on your Vespa, or such like, at 30kph, and have the misfortune of being clipped by a Auto travelling at 50kph, equalling a combined impact speed of 80kph, you will leave the Vespa and begin to accelerate,(depending on your body weight and angle of departure), to over 100 kph!

Now whatever you hit, is going to be made of a substance much harder than you !! I'm afraid that an idealist philosophical argument, a great T shirt design, and cool jeans, will not be of much comfort during the long and very painful recovery process.(that is assuming you are not dead, or paralysised.

PDJ, Wrong again! Gee, if you are going to leap to conclusions, and attack me, at least think a little before you rant! I am not a US citizen! Not that I have anything against the US, but I'm just not 'born in the USA'.

Your rants about Capitalism are bit irrelevant, unless you are advocating the superiority of that wonderful socialist product, the Trabant? Hey, I wonder if ole Mike Moore drives a Trabant, ah, maybe a environmentally friendly ZIL? No, ah well, as I say, 'there y' go'! All Extinct, like the GDR and all the rest of the murderous gang that enslaved and deprived their unfortunate citizens for so long.

My complaint about underpowered two-wheeled vehicles, has nothing to do with wealth, or class struggle, simply road safety.!!!

Incidentally, EV manufacture is not a invention of the PRC, but motivared by the realisation that China possesses 48% of the world rare earth supply,along with a total disregard for patents, cheap labour, and an attitude to worker health and industrial pollution that would make a 19th century Glasgow Mill owner look benevolent!

I would be very wary of advocating either the products or the business practises of makers such as Mountain Chen. These sort of businesses do not represent Chinese manufacture at it's best!

marcopolo

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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china
This is the scooter I am leaning towards. If I do decide on getting this one, i will give and indepth report on my experiences.

As far as I know, this kind of fast electric scooters are not allowed to drive in China.
For example Mountain Chen and EVD do only sell for export.

Have lived in Shanghai for a couple of years and have never seen anything but the "slow" type...

Regards

Johnny

correct, the maximum petrol bike size is 125cc, and aren't allowed on any highways.
125cc is *very* slow.

bikes in china are reserved for the poor.
there is no premium segment.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

antiscab
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

"Incidentally, my main disagreement was with underpowered motorised two-wheeled traffic pests, no [one] seems to disagree with this observation..."

I disagree, as my previous post pointed out. Any 50CC scooter or my e-max, can travel at 45 mph/75 kph. This is plenty fast for city or suburban traffic - apart from freeways, which are easy to avoid.

Though true, an Emax can be modded to do 45mph,75kmh, there are very few places where this is legal.
until i had the chance to ride better bikes, i did not know why (brakes and suspension were not designed for more than 45kmh)

in Australia for instance, the limit for 50cc class mopeds is 50kmh (in WA under certain conditions the limit is 60kmh).
yet the speed limit for suburban interconnecting roads (read unavoidable) is 60, 70 or 80kmh.

of course as an emax owner i just ignored the law and did the speed limit :p

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Johnny J
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china
This is the scooter I am leaning towards. If I do decide on getting this one, i will give and indepth report on my experiences.

As far as I know, this kind of fast electric scooters are not allowed to drive in China.
For example Mountain Chen and EVD do only sell for export.

Have lived in Shanghai for a couple of years and have never seen anything but the "slow" type...

Regards

Johnny

correct, the maximum petrol bike size is 125cc, and aren't allowed on any highways.
125cc is *very* slow.

bikes in china are reserved for the poor.
there is no premium segment.

Matt

Also in Shanghai for example, you are only allowed to run the 125cc´s on LPG.
There is no other electric class 2-wheelers except for the "slow" ones.
I have discussed this with Mountain and of course this limits their and the other manufacturers market enormously.

Johnny

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Marcopolo,

You wrote:

"You are equally wrong with your assertion that car safety features are optional. In most western nations, the features are compulsory! Some, such as seat belts, are heavily enforced."

That's not what I wrote, read it again carefully: I wrote:

"Most of the expensive safety equipment is optional."

The compulsory items (like seat belts) are the cheap. The expensive items are those that are optional, like traction control, automatic 4 wheel drive, ABS brakes, etc.

You write:

"First you critize me for not taking a world perspective then to prove a pedantic point you quote a US example of the cost of a low price economy model in US dollars."

My point that there is not ""tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment" required, works for the the average car, worldwide.

wookey
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

This thread is in danger of getting vaguely back on topic.

In the meatime qI have concluded that arguing with marcopolo is a complete waste of time: he is too sure of his rightness on all points to admit error. Bearing that in mind I suggest that we drop the slow/fast big/small vehicles debate. Everyone's opinions are now clear: others can make up their minds by reading it all.

Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)

marcopolo
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china
I disagree, as my previous post pointed out. Any 50CC scooter or my e-max, can travel at 45 mph/75 kph. This is plenty fast for city or suburban traffic - apart from freeways, which are easy to avoid.

Though true, an Emax can be modded to do 45mph,75kmh, there are very few places where this is legal.
until i had the chance to ride better bikes, i did not know why (brakes and suspension were not designed for more than 45kmh). In Australia for instance, the limit for 50cc class mopeds is 50kmh (in WA under certain conditions the limit is 60kmh),yet the speed limit for suburban interconnecting roads (read unavoidable) is 60, 70 or 80kmh.
Of course as an emax owner I just ignored the law and did the speed limit :p Matt

Thank you Matt. A very very honest and candid contribution. That's really my point! It's human nature for riders to take risks, convinced they are riding in the best style for the type of vehicle they are operating. From their perspective, they are quite right! However, for the majority of road traffic, they are dangerous pests, irresponsibly operating unsafe and incompatible vehicles. Even more irritating is the attitude of some two-wheeled traffic who far from supporting the introduction of more compatible vehicles such as Vectrix, Brammo etc .. want the majority of road users to pay for impractical and expensive modifications simply to accommodate a small number of unsafe and impractical vehicles used by a small majority, free of charge!

correct, the maximum petrol bike size is 125cc, and aren't allowed on any highways.
125cc is *very* slow. bikes in china are reserved for the poor.
there is no premium segment.Matt

This true of most of Asia, and again it is in response to the horrific death and injury toll, not at the behest of the mighty Automobile lobby! Interestingly, AOSIS, (the Alliance of Small Island States) recently addressed the growing burden to health-care budgets created by the treatment of exhaust burns, from the growing use of small mopeds, etc in preference to traditional bicycles.

For all the indignation expressed, I have yet to hear from anyone concerning two-wheeled safety issues? Except for a desperate attempt to somehow prove that cars are dangerous also! Yes, of course many drivers misbehave, but that's also my point. Bike safety technology, must also improve. Just as automobile safety can't simply be trusted to driver competence, neither can two-wheeled safety.

marcopolo

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

"I have yet to hear from anyone concerning two-wheeled safety issues?"

It's probably because we aren't as concerned about this issue as you are. I am quite sure there will continue to be gradual safety improvements. As I have stated, most of my concerns are addressed by low urban speed limits and enforcement. In my city, these things are being more vigorously pursued every year.

Honestly, this is a little bit like arguing with Chicken Little. You believe the sky is falling. Many of us ride every day and don't share your beliefs or degree of alarm.

I am quite sure that you don't have any regulatory, judical or legislative power over the electric scooters in my country, so what you think really doesn't matter at all.

marcopolo
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

"I have yet to hear from anyone concerning two-wheeled safety issues?"

It's probably because we aren't as concerned about this issue as you are. I am quite sure there will continue to be gradual safety improvements. As I have stated, most of my concerns are addressed by low urban speed limits and enforcement. In my city, these things are being more vigorously pursued every year.

Honestly, this is a little bit like arguing with Chicken Little. You believe the sky is falling. Many of us ride every day and don't share your beliefs or degree of alarm.

I am quite sure that you don't have any regulatory, judical or legislative power over the electric scooters in my country, so what you think really doesn't matter at all.

Well now, I'm not sure which country you hail from, but it doesn't sound exactly like a democracy if you can so arrogantly and contemptuously dismiss the legitimate concerns of your fellow citizens! I am exceedingly impressed that you possess (in contrast to my 2nd class status), such regulatory, judicial or legislative powers yourself!!!

Your attitude is exactly the same as the opponents of introduction of Safety Helmets, Seat Belts, and,oh yeah, the breathalyser. I would suggest you visit, and spend some time in the road trauma ward of your local hospital, maybe then your attitude would be a little less dismissive.

marcopolo

dp
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Re: 72 volt scooter here in china

Marcopolo:

I am not dismissing the legitimate concerns of my fellow citizens. I am dismissing the ravings of some guy on the internet in a county on the other side of the world.

I don't need to go to the trauma ward of the local hospital. I have already looked at insurance and accident statistics.

My electric scooter is not nearly as dangerous as you want us to believe. The data you have presented is far from complete or accurate. It's like your inaccurate statment that vehicles are required to have "tens of thousands of dollars worth of safety enhancing equipment." It's like your notion that 50 km/h is a low speed when it's the really the legislated maximum for urban travel in much of the world

We could go over the statistics and I could try to educate you on the finer points of the data and some new concepts, but I think you would still cling to your beliefs. So there really isn't much of a point.

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