E-Fun or Mountain Chen

I don't think that I owes any people spare parts or funding,my company is always here and open to the world,Here are full production and spare parts in warehouse,any clients can come here picking up their parts within warranty period. Or pay the freight for us to send free parts. We even bear expensive express courier on parts for container buyers. During passed year,we spent more than 50,000 dollars only on freight of TNT.

We never close like Old E-max or Vectrix..... who even has no ability to do after sale service now.

I think the hostility to me is only because that we are chinese company,but they are western company !

Suppose we are bankrupt or disappear because of these maliciour attacks, what advantage to pete sandford or Ruairi O'Brien and thousands of enduser of my scooters ?

Pls close the website www.mountainchen.info !!!

Mr Cheat - sorry, I mean Mr Mountain Chen...

Thank you for reviving this thread, I was getting a little concerned that it would be forgotten and not found by your potential customers.

So, now you are making out to be the one who has been wronged!

You are conveniently forgetting that it is you who took your customers' money and then shipped them products that were not of merchantable quality and in some cases (like mine) not to the agreed specification.
On top of that, you then refused to supply spare parts to replace failed or missing items. In my case, after shipping a sample scooter with inferior batteries that failed within a very short period of time, you had the cheek to offer to sell me a set of the correct batteries that I had already paid for once, so long as I ordered a whole container of scooters. What sane person, having been deceived once already would pay out more money to the same person in the hope that they will receive the correct goods the next time.
Actually, your tactic is not unlike that of the Nigerian 419 scammers is it? They are locked up when they are caught yet you are still free (strange that, who'd have thought Nigeria would have had a better legal system than China).
You also lied to me and others in writing on several occasions. How many times did you tell me you had posted a replacement throttle to me? I certainly lost count.

Certainly from my part, my animosity towards you has nothing at all to do with your being a Chinese business.
I have been importing containers full of Chinese goods since 1999 and have (until my dealings with you) always found your countrymen to be honourable in business and to stand behind their products with pride.

Thank you for the backlink to www.mountainchen.info - the more the merrier as far as search engine rankings are concerned.

I'm very pleased to see that anyone searching for you on Google will find the top 5 positions on page 1 will bring them here or to that website.
On Yahoo www.mountainchen.info is now in position #1.

You had your chance to put this right and I warned you what I would do if you continued to ignore my requests for a solution to the problems with your shoddy product. Now that I have carried out my promises you are whingeing about it. What if you go bankrupt you say? Hooray for the customers you will not be able to cheat in the future is what I say!!

Such a shame. We, like Redking and others were prepared to invest substantial funds to build a large sales network for your scooters. This could have been huge but you chose short-term profit instead of building a long-term business by looking after your customers and selling them marketable products that you support.

Take down www.mountainchen.info you say? Perhaps you'd like to purchase the domain from me? I'm sure we could agree a price to make up for my financial losses through your actions.

Purchase the domain from you ?

It is a shame people like you could post on this forum,I think I should quit from this forum and focus on my production !

No need to play game here with dirty people like you !

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, .....

This is exactly what I mean by unproductive name calling! Electron and Redking, do you really imagine that you are actually going to magically persuade ole Mountain Chen to agreed with you by venting your spleen with wildly excessive abuse? Do you think if you can just shout really, really loudly, he will change his mind?

Of course not! You got exactly the response you knew you would yet? You fell for an old trap, you want to prove how you are right and Mountain Chen is wrong! You don't want a remedy, you want revenge and vindication! very human! But, very unproductive and very unprofessional, for businessmen!

I don't know Mountain Chen, but he is nothing like the notorious Nigerian scamsters! He has not run away, nor is he a criminal (at least, not in any legal sense of the word that I can see) All he really has, is a business dispute with you. Studying your complaints about Mountain Chen, He would appear to be no worse in performance, and probably less arrogant, than Mike Boyle at Vectrix? (certainly less litigious)

Now, you're not really private consumers. By your own admission, you wanted to transact business with Mountain Chen, as agent/distributors. Not every business deal works, and not every importer/distributor/manufacturer relationship works out! From your own statements, it's evident that you must share some of the blame for the failure of the relationship. Setting up defamatory web sites, writing indignant posts, screaming and yelling, will not really assist you, just give him the opportunity to vent his indignation.

Remember the only man who argues with a fool, is a fool!

Mountain Chen , it is evident that you must have experienced some difficulties in establishing yourself as a EV maker! It is also evident that you have, and are still, passionately dedicated to trying to expand and improve your skills as a EV manufacturer. Well done! It's a very difficult but very worthwhile industry you have chosen.

This forum, has contributions from a great many excellent people from diverse backgrounds. It also provides an opportunity for people in the EV industry to converse with enthusiasts.

We appreciate that you are one of the very few manufacturers who posts here. Good or bad, we are interested in your right of reply to the allegations made against you by your detractors. If you find it easier to write in Chinese, I can provide an accurate translation.

Hopefully, this may promote a more positive dialogue.

Marcopolo, I long ago gave up any hope of reaching an agreement with Mr Chen over my losses.

It is Mr Chen who revived this thread after weeks of inactivity.

I don't know anything about any defamatory websites - in every definition I can find, speaking the truth and quoting directly from written communications has nothing at all to do with defamation.

As for your offer to help translate for Mr Chen - he certainly needs no help in the translation of profanities - he swears in English like an old fishwife :)

Now, perhaps we can all get on with our business.

Marcopolo, I long ago gave up any hope of reaching an agreement with Mr Chen over my losses.

It is Mr Chen who revived this thread after weeks of inactivity.

I don't know anything about any defamatory websites - in every definition I can find, speaking the truth and quoting directly from written communications has nothing at all to do with defamation.

As for your offer to help translate for Mr Chen - he certainly needs no help in the translation of profanities - he swears in English like an old fishwife :)

Now, perhaps we can all get on with our business.

Yeah, I know, very exasperating! Interesting that swearing is usually the language of the inarticulate. Still, Mr Chen is trying to manufacture, (perhaps incompetently) EV products. I'm curious to see whether he's just another incompetent manufacturer, or just lousy at customer service and relations.

Mountain Chen, we would welcome your comments?!

Marcopolo,

as with Electron, there is nothing excessively abusive in my posts. As with Electron, I also liaised and communicated with Mr Chen as a professional buyer of his services; seeking spare parts (that were MISSING) on samples, and seeking redress for clearly wrong products sent. I also was greeted with dirty rotten offers of those parts being included in a container shipment.
I do not hold any blame in those transactions. I was being cheated by an unethical devious person who it subsequently turned out, was doing this to other pioneering business people.

Let me tell you a few home truths Mr Chen; while I also admonish MarcoPolo for reminding me that you are no worse than a Mr Boyle of vectrix. I DIDN'T TRANSACT BUSINESS WITH VECTRIX !! I wasn't scammed out of my money by Vectrix? But I was conned by Mountain Chen. So stay on topic.

I bought 1 (one) e-max 110s sample from e-max in 2007. There were small issues with that (early sample) BUT in order to resolve it, they sent new wheel, new motor, new controller, new throttle, new set of batteries, new ignition sets; all in an effort to pin down the problem and resolve it so that I COULD order a container-load and deepen business relations. They sent ALL of those parts FOC and at that their cost. YOU?? You did the opposite: - Promised the sun and the moon, took my money willingly, then got my orders wrong, colours wrong, quads wired by children (2 forwards and one reverse, NO NEUTRAL (how amateur and unsafe is that, particularly based on how drivers get on a quad??) ), no voltmeter, wrong battery sizes (Ah lower than promised, surprise surprise). That's called ROBBERY and CRIMINAL in any language.

I also advised you, eventually, that I wouldn't be ordering a container until these issues were resolved and that I would be relentless in my pursuit of my rights. You chose, STUPIDLY, to ignore my loyalty to a cause. Perhaps it is you MR Chen who are unaware of cultures and should do some homework before you choose to 'tangle'. As another poster pointed out, consumer testing is illegal in USA. Even more so in the EU.

Now that you have aired my name here and dared to label me a racist, perhaps you should now answer these issues and also answer why you tampered with legal paperwork and, yes, even FALSIFIED SIGNATURES in one Scandinavian country? Care to answer those allegations? Go on, don't be shy. But I know you won't, Mujin. In your twisted mind, you'll tell yourself that you were desperate to make sales, you'll use images you shouldn't falsify signatures, send incomplete prototypes with dodgy wiring and lower specs. And then you'll put the blame somehow on that poor sucker.

Anyone who buys from you is a sucker.

Whether in Chinese, English, French, Swahili or sign language, you have acted unethically and criminally towards me and my company. If you were in Ireland, I would have buried you (your company of course, old chap) by now........

Marcopolo, I have nothing but respect for all of the nations of the world. I have dealt with gentlemen in all countries of the world. The guys in www.topmotorx.com are professional. The guys in the new e-max are professional. The proof is clearly there for me.

The proof is clearly there also from you Mr Chen. I asked and asked, and even begged, for the parts I needed but you took the approach that unless the prospect orders a container, that they are dirt.
China and Chinese culture is great. I love it. As I do most things Asian. I suspect that I have read more of your nation's great texts, literary and philosophical, than you have; incidentally. You Sir, ARE dirt, however. That is not abusive nor excessive. That is factual. Based on your words and subsequent actions. Like Electron, I have a paper-trail to prove it. It is a fact that you are, as we say in Ireland, a bona-fide DIRTBIRD.

...there is nothing excessively abusive in my posts.

C'mon, don't be shy tell us how you really feel! Let it out!Don't holdback!

Not excessive or abusive? Wow, I'd hate to see you when you really get pissed off!!!

Ok Marcopolo,

I won't be shy.

I believe that becuase you are hawking for business from Mountain Chen, as some sort of middle-man, you are sticking your nose in where its not wanted.

If you think being robbed and cheated is fun and complaining about it publicly in order to forewarn other pioneering EV retailers is "excessive", then I would suggest your objectivity is in serious doubt and your business ethic is skewed.

I don't give a damn where the supplier originates. I am not an international trade virgin. I do not need you condescending to me as if you have more trade knowledge than me. Let me tell you something, any sane businessperson, Chinese, Irish, American or Martian, would not try to pull fast ones on potentially big clients. In no era of the world's history has that been a way to gain longterm clients.

If you believe my and electron's position, representing MANY retailers and importers that have been scammed, is excessive, then you are either commercially naive or non-objective.

This forum is about people committed to distributing EVs, using EVs and learning from one another. I, like Electron, communicated earnestly with Mountain Chen, believing myself to be a great prospect for him, but he tired of my questions; and tired of my RIGHTS. So I WILL vent my justified anger at someone who has CONTINUED to dupe small buyers and insult their purchasing power. He did not, however, insult it when the bank transfers were happening. he said YES to everything. He LIED.

Maybe you should import a container and put your money where YOUR big mouth is. That is if you have no business relations with Mr Chen.

Well?

...there is nothing excessively abusive in my posts.

C'mon, don't be shy tell us how you really feel! Let it out!Don't holdback!

Not excessive or abusive? Wow, I'd hate to see you when you really get pissed off!!!

Yes.

yes, you would ;-)

Ok Marcopolo,I believe that becuase you are hawking for business from Mountain Chen, as some sort of middle-man, you are sticking your nose in where its not wanted.

It's exactly comments like this that undermine your credibility! You have no basis, to make such an outrageous claim, except your own dented ego.

I don't give a damn where the supplier originates. I am not an international trade virgin. I do not need you condescending to me as if you have more trade knowledge than me. Let me tell you something, any sane businessperson, Chinese, Irish, American or Martian, would not try to pull fast ones on potentially big clients. In no era of the world's history has that been a way to gain longterm clients.

If you believe my and electron's position, representing MANY retailers and importers that have been scammed, is excessive, then you are either commercially naive or non-objective.

More self important, and self appointed ranting. Business is about trading together and making money, no pursuing petty vindictive spite campaigns. You claim that you are a big, experienced importer, yet you carry on like a small, and vindictive consumer.

This forum is about people committed to distributing EVs, using EVs and learning from one another. I, like Electron, communicated earnestly with Mountain Chen, believing myself to be a great prospect for him, but he tired of my questions; and tired of my RIGHTSstrong. So I WILL vent my justified anger at someone who has CONTINUED to dupe small buyers and insult their purchasing power. He did not, however, insult it when the bank transfers were happening. he said YES to everything. He LIED.

Maybe you should import a container and put your money where YOUR big mouth is. That is if you have no business relations with Mr Chen.

I have no idea about the merit of your claim, it gets lost in all the gratuitous abuse. if you persist in venting abuse on a public forum, you must be prepared to substantiate your allegations. When you chose to make public your business dealings, you invite comment. You can't expect to avoid critical examination.

The best cure for a damage to your reputation is your products and your after-sales service. I think you have the power to save yourself grasshopper. But have you the heart?

ps one of your aftersales service emails on 10th January 2007. I've kept them all. All the promises and all of the lies. You sent faulty goods then were blackmailing people into paying for the freight on parts you hadn't tested properly. And ZAP originally claimed they hired you for Quality Control purposes? That is laughable and a forward-looking statement, if there ever was one. It was the main reason I contacted you directly. More fool me, should have dealt with Gorilla Vehicles as originally planned.

And all of the emails from late 2007 to October 2010 where I repeatedly told you to remove me from your mailing lists. Repeatedly. Every time, I emailed you back and told you that until you unsubscribed me from your mailing lists full of lies and forward-looking statements, that I would continue to complain about you online. Every time, you said, Ok, they are deleted. Every time, new emails came again. You are a LIAR. You have no respect for business practices. I do not know how to get you out of my life.

STOP emailing me.

More racist abuse! On the one hand you complain that Mountain Chen runs away and refuses to speak to you,and on the other you complain that he keeps contacting you! If you really want to get Mountain Chen out of your life, it's simple, stop your campaign against him! Oh, and emails are fairly easily blocked or deleted.

I don't need to order any goods from Mountain Chen, but if I did, I would pursue any claim in a rational manner, not indulge in unproductive name calling. There is nothing wrong with using any forum to warn others of dishonest traders, but to be effective you must present your experience in a calm and rational manner, clearly stating the facts, and advancing solid evidence to substantiate your allegations. Otherwise it just becomes a torrent of abuse, largely incomprehensible to the reader.

marco...

as far as I know you have not dealt directly (or indirectly) with Mr Chen, nor do you own one of his products. You have not suffered financially or been lumbered with non-working merchandise as a result of his lies. Therefore I don't understand why you defend him so vehemently when the overwhelming majority of evidence shows he is clearly a scumbag.
I own one of HIS Eratos. I actually believe it's a great piece of kit. Shame though that he supplied it with ELECTIER batteries, instead of the advertised GREENSAVERS. On this very forum, he admits that ELECTIER are CRAP!! I was lucky to get a year out of them. Others were not so lucky, and it was then up to the poor sod that imported them to supply new batts, paid for out of his own pocket, or robbed from his remaining scooters!!
In fact, when he delivered mine he relayed a tale of woe, about faulty controllers and duff motors, and a guy in China who had tucked him up ROTTEN!!

Still...the more you persist in defending him, the more chance people will come accross this forum, and THIS link...

http://www.mountainchen.info/

and then more of his potential victims will realise what a low-life he really is.

Just to add a little bit of balance to the general Chen-bashing, I'd just like to point out that not _all_ of his (Erato's) vehicles are substandard. I've got a Jan 2007-imported Erato (bought in August 2008, branded 'Sakura S50') and apart from a wide range of minor build-detail issues it's been very good. Everything works as designed and the SLAs did 3,300km of commuting over 16 months, which is about what one would expect. I don't actually know what brand they are: no branding is visible. The controller is overspecced for a 48V machine, having 100V parts.

Clearly there have been major issues with lack of support for importers, but on the other hand at least some fraction of the vehicles are working as designed and providing good service. Just thought it was worth making that clear.

Just to add a little bit of balance to the general Chen-bashing, I'd just like to point out that not _all_ of his (Erato's) vehicles are substandard. I've got a Jan 2007-imported Erato (bought in August 2008, branded 'Sakura S50') and apart from a wide range of minor build-detail issues it's been very good. Everything works as designed and the SLAs did 3,300km of commuting over 16 months, which is about what one would expect. I don't actually know what brand they are: no branding is visible. The controller is overspecced for a 48V machine, having 100V parts.

Clearly there have been major issues with lack of support for importers, but on the other hand at least some fraction of the vehicles are working as designed and providing good service. Just thought it was worth making that clear.

SUKURA is not maded by me since it born,it is maded by EFUN owner and battery is equipped by buyer himself,you make ask this question to the fat UK BOSS.

marco...as far as I know you have not dealt directly (or indirectly) with Mr Chen, nor do you own one of his products. You have not suffered financially or been lumbered with non-working merchandise as a result of his lies. Therefore I don't understand why you defend him so vehemently when the overwhelming majority of evidence shows he is clearly a scumbag.

Firstly, I do not 'vehemently defend Mountain Chen! (fortunately, I don't own one of his products!) I just don't see how all the excessively gratuitous abuse and invective helps resolve anything. It certainly adds no credibility to undoubtedly legitimate complaints. (Incidentally accusations and complaints aren't evidence of proof, just evidence of complaints!. If you look, I's certainly not biased, I made exactly the same criticism of Mountain Chen for the invective in his responses.

What I do vehemently defend, is anyones, even Mountain Chen's, right of reply without racist abuse and excessive invective. Complaints are far more effective and creditable when rendered rationally.

I own one of HIS Eratos. I actually believe it's a great piece of kit. Shame though that he supplied it with ELECTIER batteries, instead of the advertised GREENSAVERS. On this very forum, he admits that ELECTIER are CRAP!! I was lucky to get a year out of them. Others were not so lucky, and it was then up to the poor sod that imported them to supply new batts, paid for out of his own pocket, or robbed from his remaining scooters!!In fact, when he delivered mine he relayed a tale of woe, about faulty controllers and duff motors, and a guy in China who had tucked him up ROTTEN!!

Still...the more you persist in defending him, the more chance people will come accross this forum, and THIS link...

http://www.mountainchen.info/

and then more of his potential victims will realise what a low-life he really is.

When you post material, you invite examination, analysis and criticism from impartial readers. You can hardly abuse abuse everyone who fails to be ignited by your rage.

It is evident that your complaint in relation to Mountain Chen is falls into a different category than the others. You would appear to be writing as a private consumer.

OK, having said that, If you had read my original post, you will see that I was not so much defending Mountain Chen as trying to see the problem from both perspectives. Foolishly, I thought this may assist other readers considering trading with smaller PRC firms. I felt this may be more productive than joining you guys to tar and feather one particular PRC trader.

Sadly, yours is quite a common experience when dealing with some of the PRC firms. Think back to the days of British Leyland eh? Well, the problem is very similar, most PRC firms in the Mountain Chen category, have a real problem with consistency and quality of component suppliers. Since most PRC companies compete on price as their main selling criteria, a very different business culture has developed. It is very typical to receive PRC products with different specifications than advertised. These are problems accepted in the Chinese domestic market where such complaints are just part of the haggling process. Mountain Chen is typical of a certain type of PRC trader who doesn't see how it's his fault or responsibility, if a component makers product is crap! To you this seems reprehensible, but not to Mountain Chen. In the PRC this sort of explanation is widely accepted by his customers fellow traders.

This is why I suggest dealing with either large brand name firms, or order through an agent who has sufficient local knowledge (and influence) to protect your interests.

Of course quality control and service, add to the price! Suddenly, quality, PRC products aren't such amazing bargains after all! When you deal with a small PRC manufacturer, you should ask yourself if you are capable of accepting the risks, if not, then perhaps its better to pay extra for European, South Korean, ROC (Taiwan)or brand name products.

Be fair, how on earth does Mountain Chen, a small EV maker in the PRC, selling a discount price product, deserve your invective more than the former Directors of Vectrix, (particularly, the former CEO Mike Boyle). Show me something more dishonest that Mountain Chen has done to his customers , that Vectrix hasn't done far worse and on a much grander scale? (read MIK's brilliantly documented posts)! But, and this the real difference, Vectrix charged a high price for a European made, US designed, Quality assured product! Vectrix was very well funded, employing the best engineers, and experienced marketing management, yet despite all these advantages the product quality and service was still woefully deficient.

Why do you reserve your invective for Mountain Chen, who at least is still responding,(albeit eccentrically) to your complaints? Don't get me wrong, I believe you are quite genuine in your disappointment and justified in being frustrated by the unsatisfactory response you have received from Mountain Chen!

But consider, is all that abuse really going to achieve anything? The more you abuse the more he defends, how productive is that? Especially when even his detractors, like yourself, have some degree of praise for his products?

OK, thank you for that clarification. The motor and Homologation certificate both say 'Erato' on them, so I assumed that meant that it ultimately came via you. Do I understand correctly that E-fun is the successor company to Erato, which formed when you left/split to form Xiamen Zap? Or possibly that Erato supplies motors to various other companies including EFUN?

None of this matters much anymore, but it's just nice to have the history and sources straight.

The UK Sakura company is no more, so I can't ask the 'fat UK BOSS' (did you fall out with him too?)

Mr Mountain Chen.

I really have no bone to pick with you. I am just a retail purchaser. I feel like I have recieved reasonble value.

However while you are here, could you tell us anything about new models and what will be coming out in the future?

OK, thank you for that clarification. The motor and Homologation certificate both say 'Erato' on them, so I assumed that meant that it ultimately came via you. Do I understand correctly that E-fun is the successor company to Erato, which formed when you left/split to form Xiamen Zap? Or possibly that Erato supplies motors to various other companies including EFUN?

None of this matters much anymore, but it's just nice to have the history and sources straight.

The UK Sakura company is no more, so I can't ask the 'fat UK BOSS' (did you fall out with him too?)

It is my pleasure to know that Sakura is out...... they join with Efun and split ERATO in 2006. It is very clear to find out whose motor if you come to EFUN's website,they still use the same dual cooper winding motor now.

Mr Mountain Chen.

I really have no bone to pick with you. I am just a retail purchaser. I feel like I have recieved reasonble value.

However while you are here, could you tell us anything about new models and what will be coming out in the future?

Thanks for your interesting,

The coming year,we will come out PCM BMS for lithium battery,

We will digital luxury dashboard with more accurate odometer and voltage and LED screen of BMS included.

We will improve shock absorber to make rider more comfortable in all terrain !

We will go on development of two wheel drive electric ATV

Detail come to www.erider.cn

Marcopolo,

I would suggest you grow up and also grow a set of spheres too. You are taking a very condescending stance with regards to my and others' financial losses.

I am not sure who would hire you as a middleman (as that as clearly why you are meddling here),as you are showing yourself to be available to the highest bidder in any ethical argument. According to you, all is fair in international trade and we should just take such devious and criminal behaviour on the chin.

Then perhaps Mountain Chen should take such angry and persistent behaviour on our part and 'take it on the chin' too.

Your continued presence in this conversation smells of lackey, to be honest. I am at a loss as to figure out why a neutral bystander would be so fervently posting on behalf of a PRC company, in order that we all meet in the middle.

If your memory serves you correctly (or at all), you will note that the reason I referred to my considerable knowledge of Chinese literary and philosophical culture and to its possibly being superior to that of Mr Chen, is of course primarily due to Mr Chen referring to our persistent postings as being anti-Chinese; racist. if you were an observant neutral, you might have noticed that beginning point in that remark. But of course you are not what you seem to be, are you?

I suppose you will advise me that you also know more about trade and business than either myself or Electron. Yes? On what grounds? Your ego, mouth and confidence? I think not.

I think you are meddling in the direct experience of others. What has your 3rd party intrusion got to do with anything here? And I think other posters and lurkers would be well aware at this stage that our complaints are quite valid, uncontested (in their essence) by Mountain Chen (he claimed we must pay to have new parts replaced on newly arrived machines??? Get out of town, you crooks), and essentially that this is the true history of Erato and hence a company that Mr Chen was VERY involved in and therefore guilty of unethical business practice. Period.

What do you condone? What should a PRC company be allowed get away with, that we should just suck it up and grow up? spell it out, you leviathan of business. Give your business credentials also, here and now, or cease posting. Mine are here on this forum. Who are you? A meddler, that's who. A bought man.

The more you associate your name with Mr Chen, the more you sully yourself; whoever you might be. So, what exactly is your agenda, Marcopolo?

This forum looks more like a flight place instead of technology forum.

Don't want to stay here any more,just want to remind the reader,if anyone trust www.mountainchen.info ,he will lose a good EV supplier and lose a good opportunity in field of EV.

Bye !

Marcopolo, I would suggest you grow up and also grow a set of spheres too. You are taking a very condescending stance with regards to my and others' financial losses.

I am not sure who would hire you as a middleman (as that as clearly why you are meddling here),as you are showing yourself to be available to the highest bidder in any ethical argument. According to you, all is fair in international trade and we should just take such devious and criminal behaviour on the chin.

Then perhaps Mountain Chen should take such angry and persistent behaviour on our part and 'take it on the chin' too.

Your continued presence in this conversation smells of lackey, to be honest. I am at a loss as to figure out why a neutral bystander would be so fervently posting on behalf of a PRC company, in order that we all meet in the middle.

Sooo... tell me, what's so wrong about that? Compromise is the beginning of understanding each other.

If your memory serves you correctly (or at all), you will note that the reason I referred to my considerable knowledge of Chinese literary and philosophical culture and to its possibly being superior to that of Mr Chen, is of course primarily due to Mr Chen referring to our persistent postings as being anti-Chinese; racist. if you were an observant neutral, you might have noticed that beginning point in that remark. But of course you are not what you seem to be, are you?

Gee, duh, I dunno, maybe referring to Chen as a criminal, scumbag thief, grasshopper, ect.. etc.. might qualify? What do you reckon?

I suppose you will advise me that you also know more about trade and business than either myself or Electron. Yes? On what grounds? Your ego, mouth and confidence? I think not.

Well, for a beginning I'm not wasting my time ranting and raving about my bruised ego, and making wild and unsubstantiated accusations!

I think you are meddling in the direct experience of others. What has your 3rd party intrusion got to do with anything here? And I think other posters and lurkers would be well aware at this stage that our complaints are quite valid, uncontested (in their essence) by Mountain Chen (he claimed we must pay to have new parts replaced on newly arrived machines??? Get out of town, you crooks), and essentially that this is the true history of Erato and hence a company that Mr Chen was VERY involved in and therefore guilty of unethical business practise. Period.

What do you condone? What should a PRC company be allowed get away with, that we should just suck it up and grow up? spell it out, you leviathan of business. Give your business credentials also, here and now, or cease posting. Mine are here on this forum. Who are you? A meddler, that's who. A bought man.

The more you associate your name with Mr Chen, the more you sully yourself; whoever you might be. So, what exactly is your agenda, Marcopolo?

Rant, rant, snort,rant.... Yes, and I also work nights for the CIA!! You mean someone will actually pay me? You have made a lot of totally unfounded accusations against me, with no evidence at all! Why would anyone give any credibility to your complaints against Mountain Chen, if this is your standard of proof?? He might not be the worlds best manufacturer, he might lack all sort of attributes, but hey.. at least he is still trying (competently or not) to improve his product!

You, on the other hand, seem only to manufacture bile and outrage over some petty dispute, that any reasonable person would have settled, or written off ages ago. Yours are the tactics of the bully! (If ya not fer us, yer agin' us!). Actually I started out sympathetic to your experience, but after witnessing your total lack of rationality, I have developed a certain sympathy for Mountain Chen! This is not so much based on any persuasion by Chen, but a growing antipathy to your methods, and pompous, self righteousness.

It's evident that you are one those unreasonable people, who delight in dishing it out, but can't take even the mildest of examination! I repeat,you brought this matter to a public forum, well no matter how much you rant you can't control public reaction.

This forum looks more like a flight place instead of technology forum.

Don't want to stay here any more,just want to remind the reader,if anyone trust www.mountainchen.info ,he will lose a good EV supplier and lose a good opportunity in field of EV.

Bye !

Mountain Chen, this forum has a great many readers, not all are so close minded. Some like JDH and Mik and many others, have a wealth of technical knowledge and experience that you may find useful in dealing with the West.

But you must develop a thicker skin! Just ignore your detractors! you have as much right to put you side, as anyone else. Just put compose it more politely!

Why don't you tell us about your experiences and problems involved in EV manufacture? What gave you the passion to be a pioneer in this field of manufacture? What new EV products do you see coming from the PRC? What do you see as mistakes and lessons in early EV manufacture? (especially battery problems?)

These are the subjects that would really interest the majority of readers.

Piers, don't be ridiculous. It is very clear indeed from the posting styles alone that Mountain Chen and Marcopolo are not the same person. Their long independent posting histories on this board also makes it very clear. Conspiracy theories have to be a least _slightly_ plausible!

Mr Chen - thanks for the pointer to the Efun motor info - I now have dynamometer info for it. (Terrible totally-flash-based website mind, even a simple dynamometer printout scan is only there as a flash 'whitepaper' application - craziness! Great way to turn 3K of data into several megabytes and make it less accessible.)

One word of advice for everyone (and one I try my hardest to live by - but don't always succeed):

Learn to separate style from substance

Marcopolo - I respect you but you seem overly concerned with the style of folks posts. More so than with the substance. Your style is condescending and tends to pour gas on to the fire rather than water. You tend to respond to the style more than address the core facts (did, or did not, Mountain Chen deliver on his promises to these folks - that's the crux of the matter. All else is simply noise.)

RedKing et al. - I respect you all but the more you press your cause with more strident language the more you obscure the issues. And the more you invite Marco's responses that you are being unreasonable - because the further you stray away from the crux of the matter.

Just my 2 cents worth - not to meant to offend anyone.

----

FWIW - I have experience with Mountain Chen and his products: as a consumer, as a reseller for amajor importer and when deciding whether or not to import his bikes myself. Here's my take:

Consumer Perspective
1) Mountain Chen's bikes are a reasonable entry level bike at an entry level cost for those consumers who are prepared to work on them and are resourceful enough not to need customer support.
2) If you're a consumer and you don't fall into the above category - then you'll more than likely end up with a headache
3) Having said that - I have personally experienced a progression of improvement of Mountain Chen's bikes (I've had an XM-2000, an XM-3000 and an XM-3500Li)
4) However, I have not seen enough evidence that there's enough improvement in either the product or the business model to successfully support folks other than those that fall into category 1 above (but a LOT of folks who read this board are in that first category and I wish them nothing but good luck and, when possible, help and advice if they choose to take this course).
5) Unfortunately the majority of "entry-level" electric scooters all seem to be based on the same two dang chassis (one big one and one little one). This can make differentiating between the products difficult - but there are significant differences. (As an aside it amazes me that the two competing factories identified in this post don't try and differentiate their products more!)

Bottom line to consumers: know what you're getting in to if you buy an entry-level electric scooter at a "bargain" price.

Potential drop-shippers
Hey, there's nothing wrong with this - it's where I started. But if you do - educate yourself on your product and PLEASE provide good customer support. Given that the importer doesn't give great customer support think long and hard about whether you can make enough money to compensate you for your effort in supporting these bikes. (Hint, I'm still supporting the guy who bought the first XM-2000 I ever sold).

Potential importers
A lot of people fall into this category (I'm not implying anything about the posters here). First off - don't present yourself as a potential importer so that you can get a good price for a personal purchase. It's tempting (I know!) but there are numerous reasons it won't work very well. There are a lot of potential pit falls. Before you become an importer do some research, then do some more, then do some more. We spent a few hundred dollars early on with a consultant - that went a long way to dissuading us to go with importing (and it had nothing to do with most of the problems experienced above). Did you know that several million dollars of import motorcycles were impounded last year? You don't want that to happen to you! (I'm not implying that I know whether these firms products are at risk or not).

Start-ups who are determined to build the better mousetrap
Welcome to the club. I won't presume to tell you how to do it. You're likely smarter than me. However, look long and hard at the products out there, at the market, at the supply chain logistics, at the legalities of customs and of NHTSA and DOT. That's just your first list of assignments. Then go and figure out the best way to solve the problem. Oh, and if you can secure funding at this point rather than later when all your personal savings are gone that would be good. When you manage to do all that - let me know, OK? ;-)

I've been through all of the above - and I came to the conclusion not to do business with either Mountain Chen or EFun. It's not what I wanted to do. We figured we can do better ourselves. We figure we can build, sell and support a bike that has the features of a Vectrix but the (MSRP) price of an XM-5000Li. If you go this route - make sure you have very deep pockets and a supportive spouse (my pockets are damn near empty but my spouse still supports me! I'm talking emotional support here!!) Yes, it's taken us longer than expected. We're about 6 to 9 months behind schedule and we've spent well over a quarter of a million dollars so far. But we're close to the finish line and we WILL succeed.

Entrepreneurs looking for a way into the EV world - good luck! But don't for a second think it will be easy or you can simply choose between 2 companies and import and sell their bikes and sit back while the profits pour in...

Good luck!!!!

Great post jdh2550_1.

Plus: The bike standard for my bike was APPAULING - very basic things like sitches, 4 of them, all broken. Fundemental design flaws etc. Would have been cheaper to buy a reliable more expensive bike due to endless minor faults, which when you consider how simple they are, is pretty amazing.

Marcopolo. Please if you know you have Asperger syndrome, please realize this forum, where empathy and diplomacy is essential for having any meaningful conversation, is not the place for you mate. If you do not know you have it check out Wikipedia and hard luck.

One word of advice for everyone (and one I try my hardest to live by - but don't always succeed):

Learn to separate style from substance

Marco polo - I respect you but you seem overly concerned with the style of folks posts. More so than with the substance. Your style is condescending and tends to pour gas on to the fire rather than water. You tend to respond to the style more than address the core facts (did, or did not, Mountain Chen deliver on his promises to these folks - that's the crux of the matter. All else is simply noise.)

John, without an independent authority it's not really possible to ascertain the veracity of whether or not Mountain Chen delivered on his promises, or even what those promises were! So the style and coherence of the complaints is all we have to go by. After all anyone can make any kind of wild allegation. If allegations go unchallenged, they get re-quoted over and over until they become accepted as fact. If these comments were just general opinions or about institutions capable of refuting allegations, it wouldn't matter, but for Mountain Chen, these complaints contain serious consequences.

If you read my original post, it was neither condescending, nor substantially different from your own contribution. As I say, it's impossible for the reader to determine the veracity of the facts, since no independent authority is available. In the absence of an independent source, it comes down to the credibility of the witnesses.

As I understand Mountain Chen, he states that he has basically fulfilled all he promised, within the terms of his understanding of the transaction. The fact that he says it badly, erratically, and even eccentrically, could be due to either guilt, or frustration at being attacked relentlessly, in the most abusive manner, in a language where he is far from fluent.

The style of his detractors response may be explained as outrage at MC's broken promises and his continued refusal to rectify reasonable complaints. On the other hand, his detractors may be exceedingly unreasonable people, motivated by malice, unable to accept responsibility for having cheated themselves over what they believed was a bargain. Having discovered the error, ego demands they must find someone else to blame. Mountain Chen with his poor command of English and lack of understanding, provides an easy target. How to tell?

How to judge if Mountain Chen is a deliberate criminal fraudsters, in the same category as the Nigerian Con Men?Is he a receiver and purveyor of stolen goods, currently being investigated by the Chinese Police?

Because that's what is alleged against him. Serious Stuff, you will agree.(not just being an incompetent manufacturer involved in a trade dispute)

Now, I don't know who's right or wrong. But in posting these allegations, his detractors are seeking belief of Chen's guilt in a 'court of public opinion'. The burden of proof lies with them.

The only method available to gain insight into the plausibility of the allegations, is to judge both parties response to reasonable examination into the claims.

Well, I think the responses certainly revealed the characters of both parties.

I found it significant that Mountain Chen's detractors took such an abusive attitude to any impartial examination of their claims. If wild and completely unsubstantiated allegations could be levelled at me, what credibility is there in the statements against Chen?

The allegations against Chen, are very serious matters to Chen! I'm puzzled how anyone could respond to such escalating abuse, diplomatically.

Mountain Chen's detractors should take a lesson from the style and content of your post. No reader could fail to be impressed by the carefully thought out and reasoned account of your experience in trading with such difficult PRC merchants as Mountain Chen. It should serve as a most useful guide to anyone thinking of trading in this area.

Essentially, you confirmed my own initial advice to Chen's detractors,(before the pissing contest)

However, your opinion is far more valuable, since you have actually traded with him.

Piers

Marcopolo. Please if you know you have Asperger syndrome, please realize this forum, where empathy and diplomacy is essential for having any meaningful conversation, is not the place for you mate. If you do not know you have it check out Wikipedia and hard luck.

A curious example of empathy and diplomacy!

I have proof the bike was stolen, photos, police report, refusal of registration letter, everything. I find your support for a criminal illogical. Respectfully I think it would be better for your peace of mind and the others on this forum if you were to ban yourself from this post and find somewhere else to vent your frustrations.

Excellent! Now you only have to post the details of the police report, along with the circumstances to support your claim.I'm sure as a fair minded individual you would be anxious to provide evidence, before asking people to believe such a serious allegation? I take it this police report contains the name of the original owner(s)?

When,and where, were charges laid against Chen?

I'm sure you would want to allow Mountain Chen the opportunity to answer such allegations?

Incidentally, a criminal is a person convicted of a crime, I know of no crime for which Mountain Chen has been convicted, do you?

You seem confused, I do not support Mountain Chen, just his right to be treated fairly! Surely, you are not one of those people who thinks anyone who supports the right to a fair hearing, is supporting a criminal.?

Details please..

then comes strawhistle! with fisical proof 1. "an I.D. on certificate of origin for a electric work truck"! (Wi. Dept. of Trans.) 2. emails saying with bms! 3. emails saying 20cell lifepo4 got 19 4. came with Verda labels !( that Co. jumped immedately) 5. tryed to have me SELL the byke to someone in the vergin islands 6 adds and utube showing 94KPM (no way)
If it wasn't for an active V is For Voltage members help, I would be stuck!! stop argueing and say somthing positive for a CHANGE LaTeR

without an independent authority it's not really possible to ascertain the veracity of whether or not Mountain Chen delivered on his promises

Or one could look at Mountain Chen's history. You seem to be taking this post in isolation. However, there's about two years of such discussions on this board...

You also seem unwilling or unable to see how your responses (not just the first one) have tended to escalate the rhetoric.

So, riddle me this, why does this seem to happen a lot to you? ;-)

Don't worry, almost every time I disagree with Mik he and I tend to bring out the worst in one another. I'm not holding myself up to a different standard (guilty as charged) - just suggesting a tad of introspection every now and then.

without an independent authority it's not really possible to ascertain the veracity of whether or not Mountain Chen delivered on his promises

Or one could look at Mountain Chen's history. You seem to be taking this post in isolation. However, there's about two years of such discussions on this board...

Very true, it is relevant to examine the history of complaints regarding Mountain Chen. Examination of those complaint provides for four possible explanations.
1) Mountain Chen is a deliberate con man, and being found to be without any mitigating circumstances, richly deserves public ostracism.(unlikely)
2) Mountain Chen is blameless, the complaints are all without merit. (most unlikely!)
3) Mountain Chen is a poorly educated PRC manufacturer, with a low standard of quality control, eccentric business ethics, selling bargain price products, without adequate agreements, and sourcing components wherever he can buy them cheaply. He provides no allowance for customer service, and is probably uncapitalised. mountain Chen is also probably not used to dealing with the sort of customers that have sourced his products in the West. (sounds like British Leyland). (very likely).
4) All the complaints against him are created by the same sort of circumstances and misconceptions. MC unwisely sells to inexperienced, egotistical bargain seekers, who ignore the old rule, 'if it looks to good to be real, it probably is!' These customers then try to hold him to an unrealistic after-sales service. Frustrated by his lack of response to demands MC considers unreasonable, but they do not, the complaintants are the only ones indignant enough to mount a concerted campaign against him. N/B this is not just my analysis, but the complaintants own declared intent. (very likely)

If we dismiss I and 2, then three and four emerge as the most likely approximation of the correct explanation. (this is not so very far removed from your own insights.)

You also seem unwilling or unable to see how your responses (not just the first one) have tended to escalate the rhetoric.

I agree with you that complaints limited to these scenarios would excite little comment or interest from anyone not directly dealing with Mountain Chen. However, those are not the charges against him. The allegations have grown far more serious. It is in everyone interest that such allegations should either be substantiated or withdrawn. For this purpose it would be unwise and unfair to rely soley on the complaint history, none of which is much better documented than MC's own bizzare evidence. I agree that my responses have certainly tended to escalate the rhetoric. Why not if it tests the creditability of MC and the complainants?

So, riddle me this, why does this seem to happen a lot to you? ;-)

Don't worry, almost every time I disagree with Mik he and I tend to bring out the worst in one another. I'm not holding myself up to a different standard (guilty as charged) - just suggesting a tad of introspection every now and then.

Do you advise I remain silent while people like Chen are so disproportionately attacked? You are fond of Churchillian quotes, well here's one, " You have enemies? Good! That means you have stood up for something at sometime in your life!". You are also correct that I do not shrink from controversy. "The desire for unquestioning harmony and consensus in public life, does not breed good citizens, but excellent sheep!" (Winston Churchill).

Yeah, I do seem to have a talent for stirring up the more extreme opinions! But that's not so bad if it encourages more thoughtful debate from people like you! It is unlikely that you would have contributed your rational, informative, well reasoned testimony of dealings with PRC merchants like Mountain Chen, without the goading of controversy.