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I think I would disagree with calling the MCU33033 a "digital" device. It has no memory and does not operate under any kind of programming. It just a circuit that one could also make with discrete components. It would be as "digital" as a detector circuit for an AM radio, the simplest being just a diode.
A digital device, since it requires specific software, becomes impossible to repair if the programming isn't available. If the firm that developed or owns the programming goes out of business, the device becomes an expensive paperweight. An analog device can always be repaired by replacing standard components.
Mine B's latest post is case-in-point. Why should the scooter be relying on the BCU to operate at all?
The distinction between digital and analogue devices and circuits is not whether they require programming or not. There are plenty of circuits such as the entire 4000-series of TTL logic chips which are digital circuits but, like your motor controller, do not have any software aspect. Digital devices and circuits were around for a long time before programmable chips arrived on the scene. The line between software and circuits is further blurred by things like CPLDs and FPGAs, which, like those TTL chips just contain a load of logic gates, however those logic gates can be re-programmed to look like whatever logic you like, and the description of that is written in a rather 'softwarey' way. Nevertheless, a CPLD, once configured, operates as a simple logic device - i.e. a circuit with a lot of transistors in it, which is what you are classifying as an 'analogue' device. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
And the idea that chips involving programming are less reliable than chips which don't is not particularly true either. There are plenty of circuit-only devices which have bugs in them, just as there are software driven devices that work perfectly.
So if the distinction you want to make is whether something is programmable or not, then use that term. Personally I see no real difference between a motor controller implemented entirely in circuits and one implemented with a microcontroller for the user. Both could be adjusted by changing components or software if the details of the design are available. It is true that the software is rarely available for programmable designs, whereas chip datasheets usually are available making the microcontroller design much harder to reverse engineer.
I would ask CuMoCo if they are making the software for their BCU available, or at least putting it in escrow. I think that would reassure customers who are beginning to understand that software in their devices matters.
Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)
Don't get too distracted by that. This failure was in a purely analog fuse, not in any type of complex software. The BCU was merely the first item in the power control chain, the bike would have been equally dead if the key switch was broken. There's also some simple electrical relays in place, to keep power from flowing when you don't want it to. I consider these to be good features, but they have the potential to become another point of failure.
If the BCU turns out to be a problem, we'll learn about it when it happens. I know there were some issues with it before the bike was shipped to me, and Erik and crew worked hard to make it more reliable. It's too soon to call that effort a failure.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
In the most general terms a "digital" design deals with 1's and 0's whereas an analog design deals with continuously varying signals. As wookey mentions the presence of "software" and a some form of "CPU" (a micro controller is a simple form of CPU) is not the defining characteristic.
To confuse the matter further - searching for the data sheet for this device turns up two interesting snippets:
Motorola labels the document: "MOTOROLA ANALOG IC DEVICE DATA" - that's got to be "score one point for PJD's POV" ;-)
-- however --
If you read the content of the document it talks about "MC33033
MAXIMUM RATINGS
Rating Power Supply Voltage Digital Inputs (Pins 3, 4, 5, 6, 18, 19) "
So, it's a mixed mode device (i.e. one that works in both the digital and analog domains). So, we're both right. Let's all smile and move right along... ;-)
However, to address some of your other concerns:
This is an excellent idea. I can't promise anything without consulting with my partners - however, I would strongly suspect that we can put the software in escrow. I don't want to simply make the software available because that raises all sorts of warranty & version management concerns. However, I think it's a very worthwhile idea to explore putting the software in escrow whereby it becomes available for a 3rd party to "fix" should CuMoCo ever be unable to address legitimate concerns with its operation.
Great idea wookey - let me look into the practicalities of that.
Mike's right, it was purely a power issue. I think we can safely agree that neither the CuMoCo or your Emax would run if there were no power supplied to the controller. That doesn't mean we haven't learned from this (as Mike pointed out above we hadn't sized the fuse appropriate to the extra accessory loads on the DC-DC converter) - and that's why we've supplied Mike with his bike for "Customer Acceptance Testing".
----
PJD - you have raised a valid concern and I thank you for doing so. I hope that the discussion that followed helps persuade you and other readers that we'll try and do the right thing which is (a) explain our position in a transparent way & (b) look at any pragmatic/practical solution to address concerns (as proposed by wookey).
p.s. I'd say we've only addressed half of your concern - in that if necessary we'll make the software available and that it will be easy for folks on this board (or if not here then on endless-sphere.com for sure) to maintain. This mitigates the risk in having a complex system fail and be unrepairable.
The part that we haven't fully addressed is the complexity of the system. We're firm believers in the KISS principle (keep it simple) - but only up to a point. By having the BCU in the system we are able to achieve a level of control and features that would otherwise be missing from our final product. Although we have addressed the fact that the bike can operate without the BCU and higher level functions. This situation doesn't exist with many other of the mid-range to high-end bikes that we compare our bike to.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I must be nuts. I told John I'd give the bike a workout when it arrived, and then he shipped me a bike in February!
So I commuted to work yesterday in 23 degree (F) weather, and again today when it was 26. It's dry and windy here, so the only real hazard is the cold. I've been commuting on my gas scooter most of the winter, but this is about my limit. Again, the wind protection from the windshield is greatly appreciated, but I really could use something to deflect wind off my hands. I've got heavy gloves for this type of weather, but could use medium gloves if the wind wasn't flowing across my hands.
I did notice some issues with the drive behavior that I suspect are related to reduced battery voltage in the cold, Erik is going to do some more tests and see if he can narrow it down. There's probably some tuning needed for cold weather use, but how many customers are going to be as nuts as I am? :)
I did get by the DMV yesterday afternoon, registration went smoothly. CuMoCo is in the state database of manufacturers now, they have an EPA certificate for the bike, and the VIN checks out clean. Surprisingly easy, and no 2nd or 3rd visit needed.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Yes, you are!
Glad to hear the registration went well. We got a call from a lady at the Georgia DMV and we faxed them the EPA certificate and all was good. 1 state down, 49 to go.
Here's hoping for warmer weather!
Any other readers out there who would want to ride below freezing? BTW 23F = -5 C; personally I was using 0C / 32F as the low end target. Seems I was wrong on our very first customer...
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Mike b, at least your roads are clear ! here in Wisconsin there is 2" of icy rut's from the first rainy snow than deep freeze !! the car is out of alinement and we still have 4-6 weeks before spring rains come and then the patch crews finish their work HAHA . I'm trrrying to be patient, thanks for the heads up, as I would like to ride all winter if the roads were good .
John < Maybe a simple winter setting and a summer setting on a double throw switch to the program ?? LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
Nuts indeed! I often ride in winter here, but in New Orleans the weather can vary quite a bit so we sometimes have days, like we just had in December, that even got as high as 80F. Personally you won't catch me riding in any thing under 40F, the humidity here makes anything lower than that just bitingly cold. The extra moisture just sucks the heat right out of your body in ways that a dry cold just doesn't even come close to (ask my step-Grandmother who lived in Denver all her life and was used to the occasional 20 below cold snap. She was here once when it got down just into the 20s, a quite rare occurrence around here, and she said it was the coldest she had ever been in her entire life!) So you definitely won't catch me driving in weather that cold. Thankfully we tend to have a bit warmer weather than that so I can often commute on my scooter throughout the winter.
Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA
way to go guys...well keep the pics coming and some videos would be nice, get em up on u tube, great advertising, im still saving money for mine and a lil waiting to get all the bugs out, as i am no electrical guy...lol i am a design engineer...oh well great to see a product being done in north america..
Some updates:
I started hearing a noise from the rear wheel, at slow speed it sounded to me a little bit like a quacking duck. Erik was worried that a wire might have come loose inside the motor, and could be rubbing (and wearing down on the insulation). The guys sent me a whole new motor & rear wheel. I did the replacement last night, and will be sending the original motor back for an autopsy. It was a pretty easy task in general, though I did have to run out to the store for an 8mm ratcheting wrench and a heat gun. I think I had an easier time doing the wheel than I did the electrical connections, but that was mostly due to working space. Again, I think Erik and team have a plan to keep this from happening again, so I'm doing my job as guinea pig here.
I've replaced the rear brake/tail bulbs and the rear turn signal bulbs with LED replacement bulbs. I've saved a few watts overall, and they're not going to burn out on me. I'll be wiring up some extra lights on the rear shortly, probably this weekend, for an additional safety margin.
More winter riding ahead, though I'm looking forward to some warm-weather testing. I'd like to see if I can notice any differences in behavior with a warm set of batteries, and eventually we'll need to see if all the various heat-sinks are sufficient in hotter air.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Congrats to the CuMoCo guys! The bike looks great, and I like that it has a built-in charger so you can recharge whereever you are. I'd like to know what the acceleration is like (0-50).
David
It was warm this afternoon, so did a little more work. Mostly, I wired up the hyperlights (flashing LED brake lights) and center brake light on my givi trunk. I also put on an 'Electric' sticker from http://www.mpgstickers.org
John, there's a nice Current Motor Company 'C' logo on the sides, but no other indications of Make/Model. Any plans for more extensive branding?
(The yellowish color from the brake light cluster is just reflected sunlight, the lights are actually a nice pure red.)
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Warmish weather again today, did a 20 mile round trip for lunch. That involved getting onto some faster roads than I've hit so far.
The good news: got the speedometer up to 70mph! The bad news: I know the speedo is optimistic, so that was probably close to 60mph actual. However, the bike rides fine at that speed, and there was power available for some additional speed. It's a little windy today, but the bike was stable with the crosswinds I had at that moment.
I need to order a mount for my GPS, and find a long flat stretch of road, but I think it's safe to conclude that the CuMoCo website claims for top speed are not exaggerated.
Of course, maintaining that speed for a longer time-span, especially in hot weather, and going up hill, will be a harder test. My guess is that you need to subtract 5 or 10 mph for sustained speed, and the listed top should be considered a passing speed.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
What, you want us to brand the darn thing as well as build it? Sheesh! Seriously though, you are right, we need better branding. We're currently in the final rounds of interviewing for a marketing "rock star".
David - thanks for the congrats. I'm not going to give you acceleration numbers yet. We're working on improving them because neither Mike, nor we at CuMoCo, are happy with them. If I put numbers out there now I'll have to deal with making sure folks understand that better acceleration is top priority right now. I'm also disappointed / frustrated that the Vectrix still quotes a number that I've not been able to obtain on our VX-1 nor have I seen independent verification from others. Combine figures that we're not happy with along with potentially optimistic figures from a major vendor and that's a recipe for disaster. I hope you understand and will bear with us just a little bit longer.
Mike - the inaccurate speedo is frustrating! We redesigned the speedo cluster and the artwork we sent them resulted in accurate speed readings (along with other changes). We told them not to alter the physical calibration of the speedos - just the artwork. I don't know yet whether (a) they went ahead and changed the speedo calibration anyway or (b) we're seeing unit to unit variation.
Folks reading along should know that despite initial appearances we're not trying the usual "optimistic" speedo trick.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Since putting the "Electric" sticker on the back 2 days ago, I've now had two different people come up to me and ask questions like "Who makes this?" and "How far does it go?", and a few more people just checking it out. If nothing else, you guys need to send me a stack of business cards with the basic bike specs and the company name, and I'll leave them on the dashboard. :)
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Patience grasshopper. Remember this is "customer acceptance testing" - we're determined to get this right so that when all those folks who pick up the business card call us we can give 'em the best, most practical and just plain wonderful two wheel EV out there...
After that, it's on to world domination. (just kidding!)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
What kind of tires will these be running with stock? I know the Chinese tires on my XM-3500 are just horrible in even the slightest wet (their fine for dry, though) and we get plenty enough rain here that I'm hoping you've got something better than Chinese rubber running on these.
Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA
We use Kenda's - can't remember the model number - I can look it up if you're interested (the number K413 springs to mind - not entirely sure though). They are "chinese rubber" but the Kenda brand is generally well accepted in the two wheel community.
We could offer you an upgrade to the rubber of your choice and fit them at the factory. We'd obviously need to charge you for that. As our numbers ramp up we'll be less inclined to do that sort of special - but at the moment we've got you covered! ;-)
Or you could upgrade the tires yourself - any decent scooter or motorcycle store would be able to help you out. They might be worried about rear wheel removal and balancing - they can call us and talk to us about that. We do provide rear wheel removal instructions (front wheel is standard) and we balance both front and rear wheels using Dyna Beads (a "self-balancing" insert into the inside of the tire itself rather than a weight on the rim).
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John;
There's a plug for the hall sensors but the power connections are bolted to the controller and must be removed.
I don't have any pictures of the jigs. Sorry.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Some updates: I'm past 300 miles now, and expect more riding as winter departs. I've now had a few rides in temps as warm as 60-70F, and can conclude that cold was affecting battery voltage to some extent. The GA Dept of Natural Resources has approved my bike as a Zero Emissions Vehicle, so I'm expecting a 20% tax credit on my state return, in addition to a 10% credit on my federal.
I rewired the lights within the mirrors: they come set up as turn signal repeaters by default, but the wiring harness is set up to easily convert to running lights. I think I'm much happier with constant lights in the mirrors, they give oncoming traffic a little stronger hint as to vehicle size and distance.
I also swapped out the bulbs inside the mirrors with side emitting LEDs.
I've suggested to John that the larger signals on the body could be converted into dual function lights, functioning as both turn signal and running light. They're looking into the wiring changes needed for that. But what does the crowd here think, given the light locations in body and mirrors, which ones should be signals and which should be running lights?
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
This worries me that you do not use a jig for this very critical alignment of the swing-arm to the frame? How does it end up true to the steering head? Our dummy forks on the frame machine are 1.5" solid hex steel. We found this necessary to keep the steering head in a fixed position when aligning the swing-arm pivot points.
Err - I didn't say we do not use a jig. I said I didn't have any pictures of the jigs we use.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
cant the lights do both...act as running lights and blink as signal lights...either way great job, bike looks freaking awesome...gotta get more pictures and a video of it running and speeds, this would go a long way to advertise the bike...i mean the videos out there are not what i call that great ...i have a great feeling you guys have a real winner here...
Please take some pictures and post them. I understand you have some very talented people in your co-op shop. Some even post videos of their projects. A few pictures of the conversion process would greatly enhance your image and show the world your capabilities.
Ran into another glitch. Lost drive power on the way home from work the other day. The 12v systems were all working, the BCU was good, but turning the throttle produced no response from the motor. I parked the bike, got a ride home, and fetched the bike with my trailer. It's always much easier to diagnose these things in the garage than in a restaurant parking lot.
The Kelly controller was flashing an error code, and Erik gave me instructions for further diagnosis. Turns out one of the hall sensors in the motor went bad. The good news is that there's actually a spare set of hall sensors in the motor, and they're wired up and ready to go. I replaced one fuse, swapped plugs to the spare set, and the wheel was turning again. It was very easy to fix, and if I'd had a fuse with me and known what to look for, could easily have been done in 5 minutes on the side of the road.
The bad news is that we haven't done anything yet to address the failure cause, which is most likely overheating of the motor. Overheat protection is in the design, but it sounds like the implementation is one of those items that's still being refined(and I've been riding in cold weather so far). So I'm giving the CuMoCo guys a few days to look at a software or hardware tweak before I start stressing things again.
Aren't you guys glad that I'm out here testing this thing, so you don't have to deal with these issues? Also, important things to remember: keep a set of 0.5amp 5x20 fuses under the seat of your bike, and the Kelly controller flash code for Hall Sensor failure is 4,2. Most likely, Erik will come up with something so the production bikes will never fail this way again, but it's always good to be prepared. :)
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Wolf,
Both sets of lights are single filament bulbs. To do the combo lights right, you'd want to swap that with a dual-filament bulb, similar to the brake/tail lights. They run 5w normally, brighten to 25w when the signal is on. But that also requires a new socket and a small change in the wiring harness. (And then I'll probably change the 5w/25w incandescent bulb to a 1w/5w LED.)
The other way to handle it is a smarter circuit, one that keeps the bulb on for running lights, and just turns it off and on when active as a signal. This is sometimes confusing to drivers, since the off side is the direction you are turning towards, and may not be DOT approved.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
So I, finally, checked the tires on my XM-3500 and I suppose I need to apologize for disparaging "chinese rubber" since it looks like my tires are actually Tiawanese (Cheng Shun, or something like that.) I intend to upgrade my tires, bu having at least a decent set of stock tires would certainly be a big plus considering the amount of rain we often get here (at least in August.) So it's good to hear you you've got something better running stock.
Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA
Strange comment. The last time I visited China I stopped in Taiwan to pick up a brother of another gentleman we went to visit with in Northern China. They both seemed "Chinese" to me.
Yesterday, I had a fairly long gentle slide on wet leaves while riding the crown in a dirt road with my XM-3500. The lack of gyroscopic forces of larger motorcycle wheels, is very disconcerting. But, it is not a dirt bike and I'm not a kid anymore. I used to look at Avon Venom's and shake my head, figuring I would be on my ear with the first rain. The behavior of modern tires are very hard to judge by looking at them. Venom's have 4 inches of smooth rubber for every 1/2" groove. It must have taken a lot of nerve for the first guy to ride on them. It is more often the rubber between the ears that is the problem, when you drop the bike.
Reid "Slipping and Sliding in the Pacific Northwest!"
As a New Orleanian I also have problem telling the difference between Northerners and Canadians. ;)
I have been riding my 3500 for a year and half or so, and in varying conditions, doing plenty to play around with finding where it starts to slip and how to handle it in a slide and such. I don't doubt that I was probably still touching the front brake when I went to make the turn that I dumped it on (probably under 5 mph, at a guess, but there was no sliding this time it was just instantly on the ground), even so this thing slides just a little too easy and I'm not the only one to comment on the slickness of the stock tires on the XM-3500. Several other folks on these very forums have mentioned it as well and mentioned the vast improvement in grip they have gotten by switching to something like a Michelin tire. So while there is always rubber between the ears to worry about, there's still something to be said for tire technology as well. Why not give your internal rubber a little room to breath with some good external rubber, right? :)
Lenny Zimmermann
Metairie, LA
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