Fri, 02/19/2010 - 04:43
antiscab
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looks like im a bit behind with my conversion.
anyway, a friend by the user name of hibbahellfire sends me these pics (he only lives 10km way from me)
posted here with permission of owner:
lithium 40 x 40Ah 001.JPG
lithium 40 x 40Ah 002.JPG
lithium 40 x 40Ah 003.JPG
lithium 40 x 40Ah 004.JPG
will put up more pics soon boys hang in there back on it tomoz but just buy cxy u will do very well out of it. hhf
Cross posted from the "jealousy" thread...
Now this sort of picture is what I want to see! Thanks for posting. Are the units for speed MPH or KPH? What are the units on the x scale? Are they sample numbers? They can't be seconds - because if so, the VX-1 accelerates really slowly!!! (0 to 50 takes from approx 53 mark to 149 mark).
If this is max acceleration then 0 to 50 should, by manufacturer spec, take around 6 seconds. I've never seen performance that good (I can't remember if it's 10 seconds or 8 seconds). So, from this graph I guesstimate that the amperage is only over the 3C rate for less than 10 seconds. Not too bad.
I think antiscab is aiming to use 60Ah cells? If so, his 3C rate (180A) will only be exceeded for about 70% of hibba's.
It looks to me like the 40Ah cells should be OK and the 60Ah cells definitely so. Obviously much more testing would be required and for that we have hibba :-)
Go hibba go!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
- dark blue line represents Current in Amps on Y scale
- light blue line represents speed in mph on Y scale
- green line represents Voltage in V on Y scale
- red line represents moments, when the current is higher than 125A (original fuse)
- x line represents tenths of second, so for example, test is started at 4.1 seconds and top speed is reached at 20.1 seconds
All credits go to user X-Vectrix.
Ah, so that's what the red line is - I like the label on the original graph :-)
Do you have this data in a spreadsheet? Or does X-Vectrix? If so, would you consider sending it to me? I just want to look at the numbers more carefully - my eyesight is not good enough to pull the data off that graph :-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Sorry, this graph, X-Vectrix posted, is all I have.
no his graph is not ture the max current from 0 to 100 klms is 68 amps this all i can pull from it under hard take off
well under the 120 for the ts cell so far after todays testing i used 30 % of battery pack and traveled 42 klms its looking good boys
120 k range may be more if you take it easy i recon 140 k with 2 more cells.hibba out
i will take a picture of 68 amps on gauge to show you all iam using the ts pro gauge with build in i pod it cost me 550 dollars its the best you can get do the math amps x voltage = kws 270 amps x 140 volts = 37.8 kw motor on a vectrix your pulling your dick if you guys think this let go of the old fella.hibba
" 30 % of battery pack and traveled 42 klms its looking good boys
120 k range may be more if you take it easy i recon 140 k with 2 more cells.hibba out "
Blink
Blink Blink
Now your talking like a vectrix salesmen :P
I reeeeeeeeally hope you are right
The stock pack can't do 270A at 140V, the cells sag to 110 or so, check the graph
With 68A at even 150V, you're only getting 10kW of power. It's either you're not accelerating at max. or your Voltage is sagging so low, that the motor controller is limiting your power.
If the latter is correct, then my prediction was correct - that TS 40Ah 3C cells can't handle Vectrix' power draw. Also Kokam's 40Ah 5C sheet cells are a perfect fit dimension and volume wise for Vectrix' battery bay.
About the graph; what's wrong with it? At max. 250A, Voltage drops to 110V. That's aprox. 26kW, which is more than motor's 21kW rating, but there are losses to be considered.
If you think the graph is fake, you're mistaken.
What is your current draw at full speed?
It would be really interesting to overlay the data from the stock NiMH, the TS 40s and what ever else we can get (antiscabs SE 60s?).
Hibba - does your iPod gauge do data acquisition? I bet it does - can you send us the data? Or plot a similar graph? Do you have a GPS or some other device that can do data acquisition of your speed?
I'm with AndY1 - I expect the TS's are sagging way more than the stock NiMH's. (BTW - what are the specs on the standard NiMHs in terms of capacity and C ratings?)
This is all good stuff :-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Yes, I also think so.. but is that really a problem? the slower his acceleration is, the more range he gets...
Yeah, but the cells won't last :-/
Max.Discharge Current : 350A with ventilation cooling
Hmmm, it's a shame they don't give a constant rate as well as the max. Wonder why they don't quote it as C rates like the LiFePO4 guys seem to do? However, it does seem that the 30Ah NiMH GP cells are kicking the butt of the 40Ah LiFePO4 TS's for less sag. Does anyone know if that's due to the chemistry or the relative quality? In other words I wonder how an A123 40Ah LiFePO4 pack would fare?
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Maybe, time will tell. At least they have a good, per-cell BMS :-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
a123 20ah pouch cells have been tested on endless sphere to about 300A. the easily do 200A. Paralleled into a 40Ah pack thay should out do the factory nimhs
If I fitted se40 cells, I'd look at running an ammeter an limiting acceleration to 120A. I probably do that now anyway trying to stretch the range of the nimh pack.
at least it would give me some indication that I was abusing the cells
i didnt have the wires twisted from the shunt so i was getting a wrong amp reading i fixed that up .and now i have seen 150 amps under hard take off 120 amps is still a hard take off you wouldnt take off like this to offten at 80 km per hr iam drawing 25 amps now
on second run i traveled 70 klms hard take offs 0 to 100 klms per hr going out to 120 amps this thing will do 100 klms on easy riding
hibba
great effort. well done.
Mate, really nice stuff.
7okm range with hard to normal riding has me convinced.
Time to buy some cells :)
iam doing 100kph one way 75 amps draw
i go the other way 100 kph 65 amps
this is the wind
using standard charger
have 42 cells 40 aha
traveled 26 klms used 12 amp hrs with strong head wind
bike is 25 kg lighter and u can feel it of the stand.
wainting on my $1800 charger to come it will sit in battery box
hibba
Incredible! Good job!
comparing the 3C (90A) discharge curve on http://www.shrani.si/f/1n/Z0/25Nln1xO/10gp30evh04.pdf
With the 2C (80A) curve for TS and SE cells http://evworks.com.au/tech/ThunderSkyVsSkyEnergy/ shows that the lithium cells give about twice the Ah
Looking at the 120A curve, the SE cells sag less than the NiMH's at 90A and deliver more Ah, the TS cells sag more (at 1.3x the NiMH current) but hit 100% discharge at about the same Ah delivered.
It would be nice to see 200A plus discharge curves for these cells to compare sag at hard acceleration.
I understand E-ONE MOLI ENERGY is the company that manufactured the original cells for the Vectrix. I called them this morning to confirm this and found they are now manufacturing everything in Taiwan. E-One Moli Energy Corp. No. 10, Dali 2nd Rd., Tainan Science Park,
Shan-Hwa, Tainan County 741, Taiwan They continue to manufacture the same NiMH cells that Vectrix assembled into batteries, but as you all probably know, no one is currently purchasing these cells and supplying batteries suitable for a Vectrix. Moli-Cel (E-One) also manufactures LiFePO4 cells which they brand under various names including TS. VP of sales confirmed that the best way to go was to change to TS cells.
For Technical information on the original cells, he referred me to:
http://tinyurl.com/ylkgtpr
Unless they are the same company as GP, this is incorrect! Or maybe the original cells were evaluated and then the GP cells were used for the final production run?
http://www.gpbatteries.com/html/front/index.html
http://www.evbtech.com/
http://www.evbtech.com/Data%20Sheet%5CTDS%2010GP30EVH.pdf
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Mik;
The original cells were definitely manufactured in Maple Ridge, B.C. the first commercial production of NiMH in the world. I spoke with the VP of sales last week and he confirmed the original and the replacement cells for Vectrix are being supplied by their company. They are now manufactured off shore. You need to be specific when discussing cells and batteries. E-ONE Moli has never made a single battery, according to the VP, only cells. GP assembles these cells into batteries. GP do not manufacture the cells. I also spoke with GP Battery in Richmond, B.C. last week as I was directed there by GP HK for TS Cells. GP Richmond only have consumer appliance cells, no TS Cells. I did find TS-40AH in Vancouver, B.C. for $60C in the end.
This seems to be a prime example of the idiotic behaviour of our species, then!
Producing heavy cells in Canada, shipping them to Hong Kong to put them into modules, then shipping the batteries to Poland, then the bikes to North America, Australia and New Zealand! The energy wasted for just carting them around the planet will take years to recover. It all goes into the "Grey Energy" balance of a product.
The Vectrix must be one of the worst environmental impact vehicles the world has seen so far, taking into account the energy and pollution that has gone into producing just a few thousand of them. The amount of fossil fuel burned to ship my first Vectrix to me, replace it, fly the technician over etc would have easily covered several years of petrol needs for my commute in my existing old Camry! And that does not even take into account the international shipping.
The mind boggles.....
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Mik:
Petrol is still insanely cheap. I just looked at a package of spinach. Belgium to me 8000Km. I say sorry to the world for not reading first!
Note Transport Canada identifies carbon content in US electricity for the Vectrix as 3X that of Canadian. Why? Who is putting ice studs in their scooter for year round use? I guess every summer Km on a scoot saves the planet a little bit.