First CuMoCo C130 delivered to a customer.

I must admit that after 50+ years of riding, I have absolutely no idea what makes a motorcycle tire stick to a wet road. I have gone down many times in my life, but I can blame neither tires nor wet roads. I have studied motorcycle tires, on heavy cruiser bikes, very carefully for close to 200,000 miles in the last 15 years and I do not understand what makes a good rain tire. Only one of our group of 11 has gone down, and this one several times. Riding too slowly on a wet wooden bridge. Braking/swerving in the rain to miss a dog and lastly to miss a small deer. We usually make a group buy on a load of tires as most have the same bikes and several have spare wheels. Several run the 3-Flags most years at an insane pace. http://www.3flagsclassic.org/ Mexico to Canada or Canada to Mexico 2010, 1775 miles in 3 days, with dear wife on a Goldwing. Look at this tire. I have worn out 6 pairs of them; http://www.tiresunlimited.com/images/avon_tires/AM41F%20VENOM-R.jpg
How the heck does it keep you up in the rain? My last ticket was for 147kph in a 90kph zone, so I don't go that slow. On the 3-Flags, the average for our group has been one ticket per day. If there is some way you know, to accurately measure the CF of rubber to a wet road, I'm all ears? My experience tells me the difference between the best tire and the worst is so little, only a GP rider can find it.

I washed my XM-3500 today and what a goofy design behind the front wheel. A set of plastic louvers, blocked off from behind by a solid piece of plastic. Plugged full of dirt, leaves and pine needles. What the hell was Mountain Chen thinking? I guess this thing is meant to be ridden on clean pavement when it is dry? Please put the smooth part on the outside so we don't have to vacuum the dirt out of the louvers!

MikeB, are there any further reports on your c130??? LaTeR

Tried to do a speed test this weekend. The good news: I hit a GPS indicated 65mph, and probably could have gone a little faster.

The bad news: this was on a slight downhill, and I was trying to hold back on the throttle a little bit until I hit a more level section of road. By the time I hit a flatter section, the controller had gotten pretty hot, and I was just able to sustain 60. I think the battery pack has enough voltage to spin the motor faster, but my current controller gets hot too fast to sustain that speed for long. Of course, with a higher capacity controller coming soon, Saturday's test is essentially meaningless, but it does tell me I need to find a different piece of road for top speed testing.

Congrats Mike. We're expecting the new controllers to arrive this week. We'll do a dyno test and then ship one out to you. We're also gathering data which we hope to provide to Kelly and see if they can't work on improving their thermal design. It seems to us that the controller is not doing a good job of getting the internal heat dissipated to the heatsink. We're working on it.

BTW, as far as optimistic speedos go: We've accepted the fact that we'll need to calibrate each speedo ourselves - Terry has created a calibration rig and we'll be using it for all bikes moving forward.

Ha,Ha.!! LaTeR

Another minor update: the C130 has now been rain tested. It works. In a torrential downpour (the type that sends frogs in search of a duck's back to hop onto). For at least 20 minutes.

Oh, and I think I need to revise my raingear, my waterproof gloves are only mostly waterproof.

Wow, Mike and John, the documenting of this 'customer acceptance test' has sure been a fascinating journey!

John, you may have created automotive history for the most candid customer testing! Now, if you just sent one to Mik....!

Only kidding, but Mike, the question must arise, and asked, how does the C130 compare to the Vectrix VX1?

Only kidding, but Mike, the question must arise, and asked, how does the C130 compare to the Vectrix VX1?

Good question. Honestly, I don't know. I don't have a Vectrix, and have never ridden one. John did pick up a Vectrix when they were having the bankruptcy sales, and I know he's making comparisons internally.

I can compare the C130 to a Honda SilverWing, but that's hardly a fair match-up. The SilverWing gets much higher points for overall ride quality, instrumentation, cargo space, reliability & build quality, ABS brakes, as well as raw power & speed. But the SilverWing is bigger, heavier, more expensive, louder, and consumes gas instead of electrons. I took my SilverWing up into the NC mountains this weekend, and did some riding on the Blue Ridge parkway. It's an excellent touring scooter, and can eat up highway miles as well as carving the mountain curves, but it's almost overkill for daily commuting and local errands.

On basic stats, the Vectrix has higher acceleration than the C130, but we don't have results from the new controller on the C130 yet. (I suspect the Vectrix will eventually win that point, but only just barely) On most other advertising bullet points (top speed, range, weight, per-cell BMS, battery chemistry, cost) the C130 looks to be ahead. Reliability and support is a big question still. I think John & crew can do a good job of engineering a reliable bike and supporting it, but it's way too early in the process to know if they're as good as, or better than, Vectrix. I think the Vectrix also wins a few points on looks & style, but the C130 has it's own visual appeal. It's probably a close call, but some factors, like max range or cost, can trump all others, depending on the rider's individual situation. And CuMoCo has the advantage of the lesser models for people who want a lower cost bike with more modest performance.

A post-bankruptcy Vectrix has the advantage of high dollar R&D and custom manufacturing facilities at very low cost, which may allow them to further reduce the bike's final selling price. Add in an upgraded lithium battery pack, and the Vectrix package could be very attractive. They'll probably be working to catch up on the places where the C130 has an advantage now, and trying to pull ahead on their other strengths. Of course, CuMoCo will also be improving their product, and I know that some of my suggestions/requests are on the 'next year' list. It'll be an interesting market in the next year or two, and I'm kinda glad to have a front row seat for the action.

Thank you for that very detailed and informative appraisal. If I operated in the US, I would lend you a VX1. The road comparison would be interesting as the VX1 has a very unique and well designed chassis.

I own a Honda Goldwing. Difficult to compare with anything, except the mid-life crisis of the rider!

You know the saying "the customer is always right"? Mike B is the sort of customer that this applies to in every way. We feel very lucky to have scored Mike as our first customer and someone prepared to work with us with diligence and (perhaps above all) patience. His observations and feedback have been instrumental in this - and bear in mind he paid full price for his bike and is receiving no compensation for this. One of the things Mike made clear during the purchase process is that he would be blogging about the bike. The transparency this brings is great and is something I'm pretty proud of.

Mik too would be a good candidate - if only he weren't on the other side of the world. But maybe too much of a good thing? ;-) (just kidding!)

I do have a VX-1 and for folks who'd like to stop by (in Ann Arbor) I'd happily let them ride both the VX-1 and one of ours. With one caveat - as I've *always* said the VX-1 is a Cadillac with the associated pluses (great equipment package) and minuses (heavy weight and high cost) that are inherent with such a design. The CMC line of bikes aims to be Fords, Hondas or Toyotas (including the sporty ones that are fun to drive!) - or whatever quality, mainstream & more affordable brand you care to choose. To complete the picture I also have an XM-3500 - compare the chassis dynamics of this bike with ours or the VX-1 and you'll see there's a reason we didn't go that route (and yes the newer XM-5000 has more performance - but still has the same frame).

As I've also said before there's room in this market for C1x's and VX-1's. Probably even XM's as well - if only they could be sold and supported appropriately (there are some who do that but the majority don't and that unfortunately leads to problems for every XM vendor).

Even if ours are better value and better performing (hey, I have to say that - but, make no mistake, I happen to strongly believe it too!) ;-)

The Honda Goldwing is probably best compared against the BMW K1200LT. Both fit into the 'Luxury Touring' category, with lots of comfort features, plenty of power for 2 people, and good storage for travel luggage. I haven't ridden either, but I suspect the comparison between the Honda bike and the BMW bike is similar to the comparison in their car brands. And as John points out, the comparison between the BMW and the Honda is somewhat similar to the comparison between the Vectrix and the C130, they have generally similar specs but are aimed at slightly different market segments. I agree that there should be room in the marketplace for both.

Yes you are quite right although having ridden both the BMW and The Honda, I can honestly say if removed the badges, most riders would select the Honda as the better bike. That may be an Australian experience, I should imagine mountain riding in Europe may see a reversal. But build quality? Nothing to choose between!

In terms of raw technology, I think CuMoCo has a big advantage over the Vectrix when it comes to the per-cell BMS. From my reading in the Vectrix forums here, many of the battery pack issues that Vectrix users experience could be eliminated or drastically reduced if each cell was monitored individually, and things like the big equalization charge would be eliminated entirely. Developing a good BMS isn't easy, and the CuMoCo one is still getting tweaked based on my feedback, but I would have expected the Vectrix R&D budget to have included more effort in that area. I expect the BMS and BCU combination to be a significant part of CuMoCo's success (or failure), as they should be able to easily move that technology onto a different bike frame in the future.

Very interesting, and valuable! It's really good of you to give so much time and energy to provide this information, not just to John and Eric, but to everyone.

Very appreciated!

...
...
In terms of raw technology, I think CuMoCo has a big advantage over the Vectrix when it comes to the per-cell BMS. From my reading in the Vectrix forums here, many of the battery pack issues that Vectrix users experience could be eliminated or drastically reduced if each cell was monitored individually, and things like the big equalization charge would be eliminated entirely. Developing a good BMS isn't easy, and the CuMoCo one is still getting tweaked based on my feedback, but I would have expected the Vectrix R&D budget to have included more effort in that area. I expect the BMS and BCU combination to be a significant part of CuMoCo's success (or failure), as they should be able to easily move that technology onto a different bike frame in the future.

As far as I know there was significantly more effort put into the BMS by Vectrix than what was eventually sold.

For one reason or another, the engineers were told to cut corners so they could start to sell bikes, or at least to sell them cheaper.

A really good BMS for the Vectrix would likely have increased the recharging time and reduced the range (not that they were quoting anything remotely realistic, anyway!).

It's now over a year since the CuMoCo bikes should have been on sale in numbers, and I bet John is having similar problems as Vectrix had. It's really difficult to make a BMS foolproof, and foolproof it needs to be if you intend to honor the warranty and survive financially!

My guess about what happened to Vectrix is this (and I hope CoMoCo will find a better outcome for a similar situation):
There were endless delays, putting years of unexpected further development work on top of what had been expected. Finally, they borrowed money by selling themselves to the stock market. That forced a premature, and dumbed down, cheap version of the originally intended product to be sold ... when they were not ready. If they had not started to sell, they would have gone broke before selling anything at all!

It's now over a year since the CuMoCo bikes should have been on sale in numbers, and I bet John is having similar problems as Vectrix had. It's really difficult to make a BMS foolproof,

Alas, Mik is right - we are around a year behind where we wanted to be. However, it should be noted that even at 1 year behind we're still ahead of the curve in general - and way ahead of most time-lines associated with developing new product (Vectrix was about a 10 year development process, Zero and Brammo I think are 5+ years into their existence). It should also be noted that a lot of that delay can be attributed to the fact that we're operating on a shoestring budget - word has it Vectrix burned through about $190M before going belly up. I'm not sure how many folks they had working for them - but I can assure you it was order of magnitudes more than we have.

However, we do NOW have a very good BMS solution which incorporates 3 different and independent approaches to protecting the batteries and ensuring a safe and reliable charging scheme.

But, for those interested - I find Mik's second comment interesting and can explain it in context of our approach...

My guess about what happened to Vectrix is this (and I hope CoMoCo will find a better outcome for a similar situation):
There were endless delays, putting years of unexpected further development work on top of what had been expected. Finally, they borrowed money by selling themselves to the stock market. That forced a premature, and dumbed down, cheap version of the originally intended product to be sold ... when they were not ready. If they had not started to sell, they would have gone broke before selling anything at all!

I agree with your guess - that by taking on large investments (although the early investments weren't from the stock market but from the venture capital market) they created an expectation that they were duty bound to meet. If someone gives you tens of millions of dollars they expect a return on that investment - and they make that investment based on the projections you provide them. And there's the real issue - Vectrix projections appear to have been way too optimistic. They built capacity for around 35,000 bikes per year in state of the art manufacturing facilities (25K in Poland and 10K in the USA). Furthermore they built a corporation with high overhead costs (offices in various high cost locations around the world) and they diluted their focus by trying to sell worldwide. All this on an unproven product in an unproven market. My hat is off to the skill of the rainmakers who managed to persuade folks to invest as well as to the engineers who built a great bike (with the wrong battery technology - flame away Mik).

On the other hand you have CuMoCo - we couldn't be more different. Some by necessity (no one has stepped up to finance us to the tune of tens of millions of dollars - we are seeking investors at a far smaller amount). However, a lot of the approach is by deliberate intent and specific design. We're focusing our initial efforts in a few defined markets. The results in those markets will tell us the most effective away to proceed as we scale up. Our manufacturing process can scale up to about 5,000 units per year but can also scale down to 100 units per year. If we get reliably into the many thousands of units per year (yes, that's a while away yet) then, and only then, will it make sense to consider moving to a more traditional assembly line.

Vectrix sold anywhere between 1500 and 3000 very expensive bikes in about 2 years of sales (depending on how you want to count it and who you want to believe). That's actually pretty darn successful - but not enough to even come close to profitability when you carry all that overhead. If CuMoCo get even half of that success in our first two years of sales we'll be ahead of our targets and in a very strong position. However, we're in this for the long run and we will remain lean and we will be continuously evolving our product offerings because we'll be in the market and listening to our customers...

The business side is the "other half" of why CMC is here to stay. The interesting half though are the bikes themselves and we're very proud of them!

Thanks for reading - and sorry Mike if I hijacked your thread.

word has it Vectrix burned through about $190M before going belly up. I'm not sure how many folks they had working for them - but I can assure you it was order of magnitudes more than we have.

Vectrix lost over $400 million

However, we do NOW have a very good BMS solution which incorporates 3 different and independent approaches to protecting the batteries and ensuring a safe and reliable charging scheme.

Very reassuring.

I agree with your guess - that by taking on large investments (although the early investments weren't from the stock market but from the venture capital market) they created an expectation that they were duty bound to meet. If someone gives you tens of millions of dollars they expect a return on that investment - and they make that investment based on the projections you provide them. And there's the real issue - Vectrix projections appear to have been way too optimistic. They built capacity for around 35,000 bikes per year in state of the art manufacturing facilities (25K in Poland and 10K in the USA). Furthermore they built a corporation with high overhead costs (offices in various high cost locations around the world) and they diluted their focus by trying to sell worldwide. All this on an unproven product in an unproven market. My hat is off to the skill of the rainmakers who managed to persuade folks to invest as well as to the engineers who built a great bike (with the wrong battery technology - flame away Mik).

An accurate analysis upto a point. The good thing about raising investment on the stock market is that you're selling equity. In theory, you never have to pay back the capital. This advantage of this method of capitalisation is the partnership of yield (return/dividend/interest) to profit. Not all stock pays dividends. Since the stock is traded, with success comes increased stock value. As the asset value of the corporation increases, this creates a greater equity pool for further fund raising. The risk should be transparent. 'Selling yourself to the market' is, for most new corporations, essential. Only those seeking the higher potential gains will risk investing capital . (Outside of Government-type incentives).

Vectrix captured the imagination of UK and European investors at exactly the right time.

{quote] The business side is the "other half" of why CMC is here to stay. The interesting half though are the bikes themselves and we're very proud of them![/quote]

The problem confronting any small manufacturer when his product becomes popular, is how to expand? Does he stick to the formula of Morgan Cars, just put the the price up and stay making a limited number of expensive high quality machines for the limited number of enthusiasts who share his passion and vision, or try to go mainstream to achieve unit savings through mass manufacture?

The later course is fraught with logistical difficulties, and necessitates vast sums of equity investment to realise.As the risk increases so does the competition. often the original objectives are lost in the corporatization.

Sometimes it's better to stay small, and exclusive!

Okay, okay - enough market analysis. I'm still (impatiently) waiting to become an owner of the REV-1. My trusty ol' XM-3000 is still just humming along, although it appears that my battery capacity is down to around 70% or original (new) condition. I took off on a "long" in-town trip a few weeks ago with a full charge, and was just starting to hit LVC on the controller as I pulled into my neighborhood after only expending 18Ah from the battery stack. I've got a potential buyer that wants to take the XM3K from me, and I'm ready to plop down some cash on a deluxe model as soon as you're ready to deliver another one. Any idea when you'll be ready to take on another real-world tester?

Sorry tabloid, not sure when they'll go to full production. I know they're busy working on stuff, which is why I don't have the new larger controller yet. If you want to be a 2nd tester, I'd at least wait until the larger controller is ready. After that, come join in on the fun! (Not that I have any say in the matter, of course)

Speaking of fun: I've got a new glitch to report. Power is shutting off briefly, but it's a total shutoff. Even my aux lights turn off. Power comes back in less than a second, so it's more of a hiccup than a power loss. I get maybe a half dozen of these in the first minute of riding, and then the problem goes away. This problem started on my first ride after the heavy rain day, but I don't know if the two are related.

The guys are speculating a poor electrical connection somewhere along the main battery pack path. The poor connection means high resistance, which means heating, which may make a part expand and that fixes things after a minute or so of current draw. I'll have to remove some plastic to check all the connections, but this type of intermittent fault may be quite interesting to locate.

Any chance the problem is being caused by HVC? Try leaving the lights on high-beam for 5 minutes before starting a trip. If this cures the problem, maybe it is HVC?

I'm trying hard to wrap my head around the entire concept of taking an IC scoot frame, a hubmotor and batteries, all from China then adding a few dollars worth of BMS and controller of modified design? Why not start with any of the many Luyuan 5-10KW scoots that now come with GBS cells, matching BMS and just add the fancy computer? By the time it gets into production, the CUMO may be buried by Chinese advances. What does RMartin have for this season?
Do you have the TS or GBS cells?
Thanks;
Reid

The GA Dept of Natural Resources has approved my bike as a Zero Emissions Vehicle, so I'm expecting a 20% tax credit on my state return, in addition to a 10% credit on my federal.

So I hit this statement and think of just how much I want an explanation. We always know SOMETHING is going on with that, but we're not sure what.

Large Federal Tax Credits for New Energy-Effecient, Zero-Emission, Low Speed Vehicles Amount up to Forty Percent (40%) of the Vehicle Price

Federal Vehicle Tax Credit

And state by state, without much said.

Electric Car Benefits by State

Wikipedia had a bit to say:

California

The Clean Vehicle Rebate Project (CVRP), funded with a total of $4.1 million by the California Environmental Protection Agency’s Air Resources Board (ARB), was established in order to promote the production and use of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs), including plug-in electric and fuel cell vehicles. The program was created from Assembly Bill 118 that was signed by Governor Schwarzenegger in October 2007. The funding will be provided on a first-come, first-served basis, and the project is expected to go through 2015.[39]

Eligible vehicles include only new ARB-certified or approved zero-emission or plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Among the eligible vehicles are neighborhood electric vehicles, battery electric, plug-in hybrid electric, and fuel cell vehicles including cars, trucks, medium- and heavy-duty commercial vehicles, and zero-emission motorcycles. Vehicles must be purchased or leased on or after March 15, 2010. Rebates of up to $5,000 per light-duty vehicle are available for individuals and business owners who purchase or lease new eligible vehicles. Certain zero-emission commercial vehicles are also eligible for rebates up to $20,000.[39][40]

Nevertheless, according to The New York Times, the funds available for the program might be exhausted in a few months and might not be available by late 2010, when the Chevrolet Volt, Nissan Leaf and Fisker Karma are scheduled to be launched.[41] Assuming an average $5,000 rebate, the initial funding will be exhausted after only 820 car owners had benefit, and not considering that electric trucks are eligible for $20,000 rebates. When the program was launched the only highway-capable car available in the state was the $109,000 Tesla Roadster. Other eligible small vehicles already available were a few neighborhood electric vehicles, including the GEM and the Miles, and three models of zero-emissions motorcycles.[41][40] According to staff from the California Center for Sustainable Energy, which is in charge of the program, additional funding will be allocated in 2011, between $4 to $8 million, just in time to support such coming cars as the Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet Volt, Coda sedan and the BYD E6.[41]

I must admit that after 50+ years of riding, I have absolutely no idea what makes a motorcycle tire stick to a wet road. I have gone down many times in my life, but I can blame neither tires nor wet roads. I have studied motorcycle tires, on heavy cruiser bikes, very carefully for close to 200,000 miles in the last 15 years and I do not understand what makes a good rain tire. !

Just as full tread (Meaning slick) makes better traction on dry pavement by offering maximum surface in the contact patch, tread voids make better traction in the wet by channeling water away where the rubber isn't. The neat word for this is Siping. There are sideway grooves.

I don't know much about circular cross section tires, as found on bikes. But they're supposed to be automatically better suited to rain, perhaps because they're less suseptable to hydroplaning from their shape. Even on cars a narrower tire is supposed to be better in adverse conditions. But tread grooving is said to make absolutely no difference in wet traction on a bike. The only reason bike tires have tread patterns is because NOBODY BELIEVES THEY DON'T NEED IT!

Sidewall deflection will put more tread on the road surface, so there's more traction. But it will also make that contact more unstable, so it's not automatically better.

One thing holds true, the tire has an operating temperature at which it grips best, and a good dry tire has a hard time getting there in the wet. Auto racing in the wet still concerns itself with getting the tire up to temperature, and a wet tire won't last long at all as the track dries. After that though, I come up short on info. I even looked up in Carroll Smith, Paul Van Valkenburg, etc., and they didn't even mention wet tires.

But the bike will come from the factory with a dry tire, not too many people will ride in the wet enough to have a bike equipped with some sort of special wet tire if it DOES exist.

Just to venture a guess, I'd say consistent roundness in a perfect half circle cross section would make the best wet traction, and some of these tires that are flatter toward the center, have bigger protruding knobs to the sides, or for any reason don't have a consistently round shape as you lean into a turn probably aren't going to do well in the rain. I remember people racing those PMT tires that had a flat spot in the center, then a seeming corner to roll over as you leaned into the turn, then it was flattening out again. A lot of us found them freaky just looking at them and stuck with the perfectly round Sava's that the winners were using. I don't recall anyone winning with the PMT.

Speaking of fun: I've got a new glitch to report. Power is shutting off briefly, but it's a total shutoff. Even my aux lights turn off. Power comes back in less than a second, so it's more of a hiccup than a power loss. I get maybe a half dozen of these in the first minute of riding, and then the problem goes away. This problem started on my first ride after the heavy rain day, but I don't know if the two are related.

The guys are speculating a poor electrical connection somewhere along the main battery pack path. The poor connection means high resistance, which means heating, which may make a part expand and that fixes things after a minute or so of current draw. I'll have to remove some plastic to check all the connections, but this type of intermittent fault may be quite interesting to locate.

smells of a dc-dc minimum voltage limit being above the controllers powerstage's minimum voltage limit (or the transient there of).

does the controller have its own internal dc-dc for the logic side?
or does it draw power from the main dc-dc?

Matt

hay Reid250 , Wrap your head around "doing the best you got with whats available " Could you put together this kind of project? I have tried twice and wasn't HAPPY yet!! The more he can futz with it the more fool proof I think it will be when John says it's ready!!
Hay MikeB please tell us (your opinion) how the Regen works and how it physically works ? like just back off the throttle ? LaTeR

I have worn out several sets of Avon Venoms on various Goldwings. Both bias and radial. We (a group of touring riders) found the lack of tread very scary looking. They proved to be very good in the rain, as we ride mostly in the Pacific NW. With normal 70-80mph riding they last @ 15,000 miles. If you do the 3 Flags once, there is a lot of 90 mph and they only last @10,000 miles. None of us have ever gone down from these "bald looking" tires in the rain. That is why I find judging tires or blaming tires for a spill so difficult.