Hello Everyone, This is first glimpse at the latest and greatest from Nogas this year. Actually we built the first one in the middle of last year and its just been getting better ever since. I got tired of being limited with direct drive hub motors. Speed or torque are your choices but you cant have both. Vectrix did it with a planetary gear, which by the way failed on my Vectrix along with the batteries and now its in a corner collecting dust because I built a better machine. How'd you do it Johnny? Glad you asked. Really simple. I put dual 6kw high speed hub motors, dual 300 amp kelly controllers, 72volt 60ah thundersky batts with bms of course, one brave test rider, and presto. Problem solved. She tops out at 72.6 according to gps, and gets there in a big big hurry. The Cruiser XS smokes the vectrix from start to finish and certainly out ranges it too. No heat issues with motors, controllers, or batteries that the other guys are still trying to figure out. Want the answer? You're looking at it.
Find the steepest hill you can. Go halfway up it then stop. Now twist the throttle gently because this bike will shoot out from between your legs if you're not careful. Now get your girlfriend, put her on the bike with you and repeat. No worries, finnaly! Sounds fun huh? Well let me tell you it is. I have ridden just about every scoot under the sun and have tested every motor/controller battery combo available off the shelf and know what performance they will yeild. With these hub motors and controllers we are all using this is the only real solution to achieve the performance that we all long for.
I hope this post raises a few eyebrows and people take notice. Though I am light hearted about this introduction about my company and my product I assure you we are working very hard seven days a week for almost two years now to build the machine you se here.
The answers to the three questions are, 70+ mph, 26 miles full throttle on the interstate. 50 miles real world driving speeds, and $6000.
Have a look
www.nogasamerica.com
As for the website...I wanted to wait until the website reflected all of the current info and latest achievments we have made, but i felt like its time to let the cat out of the bag. It should be up to speed in a couple of weeks. Since V is for V is the only place I have introduced myself thus far you all can just respond to this thread with questions and I will answer them promptly.
By the way Nogas made their first celebrity sale over the weekend to Oscar De la Hoya. I hope it holds up. Yikes!
www.nogasamerica.com
I am a litle surprised that no one has responded to this post yet. I thought for sure John H. from Current Motor Company and D. Zehrbach would have replied. Maybe they're scrambling to fab a hub motor on the front of their bikes too! Just kidding guys.
Seriously I have been reading posts on this site for over a year and I am well aware of the problems that we're faced with trying to use hub motors. I know that the 5k "super power motor" on Currents bike has poor take off and that its not going to accelerate up a hill from a standing start. I have the same motor in my shop too! It's the same reason why the ZEV has a high speed model and a different model with a lower top speed thats a hill climber.
Hub motors are built for speed or torque, not both. The only way to have high speeds and good hill climbing with a hub motor platform is to use two high speed motors which will give you the torque you need to climb any hill. It also keeps the motors and controllers nice and cool.
The only reason why I am relinquishing this information now is that I realize the need for all of us to be producing products without limitations as far as freeway capability and hill climbing. If we do not produce electric scooters that can meet or beat the performance of their gas powered counterparts why would the general public ever adopt and adapt to this technolgy?
Changing peoples way of thinking two wheels at a time...John A.
www.nogasamerica.com
please post pics and you tube vid of it blowing of a vectrix :)
How long to delivery in the USA?
How long for delivery internationally?
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
It takes me about two weeks to put one together. It can be built in Nashville or San Diego depending on which part of the country you are in. Shipping in the states usually takes only a few days. International shipping probably six to eight weeks if you want it done affordably. Our scoots are made in the USA and receive a USA vin (1N9) is our wmi code. And of course they come with an MCO as well.
www.nogasamerica.com
;-) Ouch! ;-) (But contrary to popular belief I don't actually live at my keyboard all the time!)
Actually, I can assure you that you don't have the exact same motor because we modify all our motors ourselves. Yes, we do start from the same motor you refer to. However, we currently do two specific motor modifications - both related to heat management. We also have other modifications in the pipeline (and no, I'm not going to tell you what they are).
I'd respectfully ask you not to make claims about our products that you can't substantiate. I'm not looking to start a fight - and I did enjoy your friendly ribbing at the beginning of this post ;-)
I disagree - for currently used hub motors this is true. In fact for the majority of electric motors it's also true. For example the motor in the Vectrix is built for speed and uses a mechanical planetary reduction gear to provide torque multiplication. However, there are classes of motors that can offer speed and torque. The very first XM I owned - the XM-2000 - has a motor with two windings one for torque and one for speed (it's actually modest torque and modest speed but it shows the inaccuracy of your statement). It wasn't a very good implementation - again, just an example to show that you're overstating the situation.
As to what the future may hold I'd recommend that you watch this space (that's the space occupied by CuMoCo ;-) )
Two hub motors may offer the benefits you describe - in fact they probably do. However, it is far from the only way to achieve a suitable performance profile for a scooter in this class. But two hub motors is not without its own downside. Everything in engineering is a trade-off.
Also, absolute speed and acceleration performance are not the only aspects one needs to engineer for. Sure, it makes for great marketing (and Vectrix still publish an acceleration figure that I've never seen duplicated by an independent 3rd party). The complete package of your bike might indeed place it at the head of the pack - but I bet it doesn't.
The best proof will be when there's enough bikes out there so that independent 3rd parties can review all the choices.
Funny, I thought the reason you were "relinquishing the information" was to sell more of your bikes. Perhaps at the expense of some of your competition? But, hey, what do I know! ?
;-)
Please note all the smiley faces. I don't really take strong exception to the fact that you're trying to position your bikes as the "best". Who can blame you? But, heck, surely you don't expect me to sit by and simply agree with you? ;-)
Well, we can leave things on a happy note for sure - I totally agree with this last quoted section.
Peace, love and electric powered two wheeled happiness to all! ;-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
We must all agree on some set guidelines for how we can evaluate products. California just recently set guidelines for electric motorcycles to meet to qualify for the state rebate program. My bike will hopefully be certified before funding runs out. It will be a proud day for me when the Cuiser XS is alongside the vectrix, brammo, and zero on the states website for qualifying motorcycles. Anyway the state requires that we make two laps around a 20 mile coarse called the Pomona urban loop, then we must accelerate from zero to 50 in under 10 seconds. I know this is not convenient for you guys who are not in California, but my point is that range, speed, and hill climbing must become standardized. This way people can accurately evaluate a bikes true performance before they buy one.
I am not out to promote my product at anyones expense. I am only going by information I read from customers reveiws or company websites.
I only speak from personal experience. I have a 5k super power motor that has been modofied with larger phase wires and high temp hall sensors. I also drilled the other side of the axle out so that the phase wires are seperate from the hall wires. Which is a good trick to cancel cross talk between high and low voltage wiring as well as allowing for larger phase wires. I have jammed 96v down its throat via a kelly controller and it did okay, but i wouldn't compare it to the performance of a gas scooter. It may climb a hill but it won't accelerate rapidly. Especially not with a passenger.
I have been heating up, blowing up, burning up and sometimes melting down these motors and controllers for longer than I want to remember, and what I find is you go fast you build up heat. You go up a long hill you build up heat. You do anything except go really slow on level ground and you build up heat. Heat is the enemy. Heat is inherent. All we can do is beef up wiring and add some cooling fins, but they will still get hot and all we can hope is that they will hold up. With the dual motor approach everything is nice and cool. Nothing has to work really hard and I am able to run the controllers at less than 75% max current and achieve this kind of perfromance.
I am not trying to say that other people don't make nice bikes. That would be silly. I don't have anything that no one else has access to. Again everything I use is off the shelf. I can just tell anyone reading this about my experiences with these same motors and they are good, but they are not without limitations as far as what terrain and speeds they can achieve. The Cruiser XS is the only hub motor bike I have ever ridden or heard of that has no limitations. If anyone knows of another one please let me know.
www.nogasamerica.com
How does the scooter handle with the unsprung weight in the front wheel? How about potholes and gravel / slippery roads / snow?
Have you had any feedback from experienced riders who are not financially involved with the project? I'm not saying that the front hub motor is necessarily a problem, but I think that a test report from someone unbiased would be very welcome!
Thank you very much for spelling out the problems and the solutions you found - others might be more tight-lipped about such "secrets".
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
I kinda like the idea of two hub motors, but then my previous car was an all-wheel-drive Subaru. :)
Are both motors identical, or have you configured one motor for torque and one for speed? How do you balance the power split between the two, or is an even split good enough?
My guess is that two smaller motors provide a good bit more surface area to dissipate the heat, so it runs cooler than a single larger motor & controller. However, it's also got to be a more expensive path. Will it be worth it?
I'm going to speculate that people living in very hilly areas will like it, but people in flatter areas would choose a cheaper single-motor solution. But 0-50 acceleration is important for anyone in traffic, no matter what the hills are like.
Standardized testing for bike stats is clearly a good thing, I know John and I were both disappointed by the badly inflated specs of some Chinese import scooters.
Nogas, feel free to send one of your bikes down here to Atlanta, and I'll test it along side a CuMoCo C130. ;)
And John, maybe we could loan Nogas a C130 to drive around the Pomona loop for you?
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Thanks, thats a great suggestion and a good question about the handling charecteristsics. As of today myself and my father are the only two that have had the pleasure of riding this model. We sell a bunch of other models in various power configurations, and have been playing with this dual motor thing for someime and haven't really tried to sell it. Honestly we still aren't. I just want to offer it up so people can ponder a different approach.
As for the the handling. When I built the first one. I left the kelly's on default settings because I had no idea what was about to happen. It literraly spun both tires the first time I twisted the throttle and I almost dropped the bike. At 40 mph it would still spin if I hammered the throttle. It was pretty hairy, scary and unsafe. We dialed the controllers back to where at full throttle from a standing start the tires only "paw" a little. with these setting it was surprisingly easy to ride. I didn't really know what to expect, but it turned out to be pretty good and an enjoyable ride. It does tend to track straight slightly when you apply the throttle. So that means that you don't want to accelerate on the entrance of a tight turn. High speed sweeping turns are no problem, and it handles normally. It does as well as anything else on two wheels in gravel, snow, and rain. I rode the bike alot and then shelved the project, so we could work on the bread and butter models(Vintage). The thing with the front hub motor application is that you loose your speedo and odometer, so I had to find a new way to instrument the bike, digitally. Currently the bike uses a gps and a cycle analyst which actually works well and gives all the info you need as well as a really handy gps.
www.nogasamerica.com
Nogas,
I do wish you luck and I think the market is big enough for lots of players. The only thing I really didn't like was you presuming you know what we do with our motors. Not that big a deal but not really "fair" either. I kind of saw your mention of me as "throwing down the gauntlet" in a friendly way. And, as you likely know, I love a good debate! It's all good.
I agree that standardized testing is appropriate - and I look forward to when we have a reasonable Federal standard. However, I think CA's acceleration tests are unreasonable and reflect the desires of the parties that likely lobbied for their inclusion to create obstacles for other companies. But, good for you - you'll pass the acceleration tests handily. I presume you've checked that this model still passes the FMVSS braking requirements?
I also think that a two wheel drive is a legitimate and interesting approach. But, I really do disagree it's the "only" approach - which I think is what you claim above. Yes, heat is the enemy but heat generation is caused by many things and there are various solutions. There are three approaches: (a) be more heat resistant, (b) cool things better or (c) don't generate as much heat in the first place. Paying attention to all three is important (and probably in the reverse order that I listed them!) Dual hub motors would appear to do well on most all of them.
However, as I alluded to before though speed and acceleration are only part of the picture. I think my biggest concern with a two wheel setup would be chassis dynamics, braking performance and suspension. Have you addressed upgrades in these areas for your increased speed capabilities? What size rotor and disk brake setup are you using on your front wheel? Have you upgraded the front forks, suspension and headstock now that you have a very heavy front wheel? You now have about an additional 50lbs at the end of a long lever... Sorry if this sounds negative. You might have it all suitably addressed - but these are some of the downside that come along with a 2 wheel drive system.
I do wish you luck - you've chosen an innovative approach. And I hope you can get your VX-1 back on the road so that you can make that video of you blowing away the Vectrix (I'm absolutely sure you will be quicker (there's my gauntlet being thrown down to the Vectrix guys! ;-) Do you have any 0-50mph times recorded?
Good luck!
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I absolutely agree that the CA standards are biased and somehow Zero was approved already when the program started, but they are in CA so it makes sense that they would be the ones working with the state if that is indeed what happened. I don't agree that they are unreasonable in setting that acceleration standard. I think they are trying to set a bar so as to be sure that the vehicles included in this program are capable of flowing with traffic without issue. People drive really fast out here and we dont want to be in the way and have someone in a 6000lb suv right on our tail if a malfunction occurs and get run over.
As for braking and suspension.....The dual piston calipers and brake rotors are adequate on the bikes as long as they are aligned properly and make full contact with the rotor. They are suffecient and bring the bike to a stop within federal guidelines. I know we can't include regen in our brake tests, but we do have two motors doing it and it is a massive braking force and really nice way to slow and stop the bike. Typically the pads don't ever get used unless in an emergency.
The front forks hold up fine with the second motor. The two motors working in perfect unison really do balance out the forces placed on the whole bike during take offs and stops. It is really beautiful how it all comes together. If someone told me about this before i tried it I would have thought the bike would handle awkardly, but it doesn't.
Another thing I thought was that the range was going to be lowered with two motors drawing off of the battery pack but it is a marginal difference.
Of coarse with any thing there is room for improvement and improvements will always be made. But until I hit the lottery and can build my own platform from scratch then I will have to use existing scooter frames and bodies and modify them into what I want and make them work. I would really like to see this approach used on a three wheeler with side by side seating. With the available power these motors could haul a much larger bike and bigger batteries too. But thats just a dream and I don't want to be the guy that says I am going to have something in a few months. We'll save that for next year.This bike is real. Its here today. And it is exhilerating to ride.
www.nogasamerica.com
Mike B. The motors are identical. The controllers and settings are identical. When you pair two high speed low torque motors, the torque comes in the fact that you have two motors. If you take a motor thats capable of going 70 mph and you put that onto the back of a bike then you will go fast eventually, but if you have two people and you have to start on a hill forget it. It's not gonna happen or at least it won't happen very fast.
Thats why I almost lost the first bike because i had no idea of the difference it would make. It spun both of the tires on dry pavement! We did play around with different settings for each controller, and there is a lot of cool things you can do with programming the controllers differently for individual needs, for me eqaul settings works just fine. It's really fun to blast off from a red light after I hear the people in the car next to me talking about my electric scoot.
www.nogasamerica.com
I am impressed with the technical specs and the approach of the Rebels from Nashville. As with all of these new USA PEV importer / assembler / manufacturers, my concern is not that they can design and build a great electric bike, but they will be underfunded and short lived due to burn rates of a small capex intensive business.
All of you pioneers, Current, Nogas, Emped, EMS, we want your products. I just purchased an EVD for various reasons and it left me wanting more. I have the cash....yes, convince me you have a great performing product, by all means, but also give me something to go on regarding the potential longevity of your company.
One more thing:
AS these bikes get better, with better components, they get more expensive. We have Current over 7K, a slew of what looks like decent 5KWs from a variety of importers for 4500-5000. We have this one from Nogas at 6K. So far so good.
Are we all stuck with 13" wheels at these prices? This has to be one of the greatest drawbacks of the class I see.
Also, the electrics, whether Li or SLA, are all fairly heavier than equivalent gas scooters, it seems to me they need properly fitted and calibrated shocks, forks, and spring rates.
You make a fair point. If you're an accredited investor I'd be more than happy to send you our business plan and ask you to consider an investment. ;-) We are seeking investment, we do have a "serious" business plan and we're pursuing various funding approaches. We're definitely planning to be in this for the long run. Part of the reason I got into this was the desire to improve the entire ownership experience - not just to build a better bike.
From how NoGas has responded I get a good vibe from him that he treats his customers well.
Don't forget we also have a $5500 model which will perform as well, if not better, than those imports.
Please can you explain this comment? Are you saying you are looking for a motorcycle class of electric bike? The class that our first bike is in is "maxi-scooter" and if you research the high-end gas models (Suzuki Burgman, Honda Silverwing, Yamaha Majesty) you will see they have similar wheel sizes. As for motorcycles or 'big-wheeled' scooters using hub motors - they will come soon.
We're about 50lbs to 100lbs heavier than the gas version (dependent on battery pack size). We most definitely agree that we need properly calibrated shocks, forks and spring rates. In fact we have a 30+ year veteran from Chrysler's vehicle dynamics department who is our suspension guy. We've benchmarked what we need and we're receiving samples now. Initial results gave us all a big smile (the roads are rough here in Michigan!)
----
I also want to give a big shout out to NoGas - he's doing a great job pushing things forward. I do have reservations about dual hubs - but NoGas assures me it works great. I don't mean to hijack the thread - just figured I'd answer some of awilensky's questions...
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I am still waiting for some pic's of nogas's hot bike LaTeR
thank GOD I wake up above ground !!!!
I'll just say this as a former owner of several touring bikes, a Burgman 650, an Aprila Scarabeo 500 (06), and a few electrics (Oxygen, EVD): Once you cross the 5k-8k dollar line, a buyer starts to look for more than an electric novelty - we expect that the vehicle can ride as well as a comparatively priced maxi.
Otherwise, we might as well stick with the EVD class bikes that are priced in the sweet spot of 2k ish. But overall, I am heartened by the sudden surge in maturity of the components that are now enabling a new generation of domestically designed and assembled PEVs.
Now, if someone can just give me the wire color codes for that EVD motor, I can stick in one of the Kelly controllers and escape from the stock controllers 'control' of my riding! Anyone know the EVD wire callout?
What colors do you have comong from the motor? I will try to help.
www.nogasamerica.com
I'm just a lurker, and not the original poster of the comment in question, but I share similar concerns. I'm not an imminent customer of any electric bike in this economy, but if my 250cc maxiscoot should suffer an untimely demise, I'd be looking at ZEV and Current along with some gas powered options.
On the wheel side, bigger is not necessary, but the smoother ride as the road gets rougher shouldn't be ignored. There are times I'm jealous of folks who ride the Kymco People 250, with its 16 inchers.
On a related note, I wouldn't mind seeing larger wheelbase numbers in the specs of the 60-70+mph electric scooters. My Daelim S2-250 has a 58.3" wheelbase, and I've ridden other maxi scooters with longer and shorter wheelbases. I've never felt at risk on my own bike, but when the time comes to replace my S2, I'll heavily lean toward a longer wheelbase (and larger wheels if I can), for the sake of the increased stability at sustained high speeds.
Ironically, the Vectrix, which today would be off my shopping list, has the longest stated wheelbase I've seen in a highway speed electric scooter, at 60". The Vectrix is slower, more expensive, and shorter ranged than a ZEV, Current, or NoGas, and those factors will trump all others. However on paper at least, with its 14"/13" wheels and longer wheel base, the Vectrix seems to me to be the best qualified to handle real world road conditions at the upper end of the speed envelope where these bikes can operate.
Please don't take this as direct criticism. I'm an engineer, so I understand that things are rarely as simple as they seem on the surface. I also am aware of the possibility that many (all?) of the electric scooter offerings are based on existing frames/suspensions purchased elsewhere, with most of the engineering effort rightly being applied to the hurdles of the electric drive and related systems. However you asked for an explanation to a comment that, while not mine, echoes some of my own thoughts.
-Victor
It's important to be relaistic about the fact that for over 100 years man kind has been afforded the convenience of pulling into the gas station and filling up. The change to an electric, hydrogen, or both infrastructure is not going to happen today or probably for the next several years. This is just the beginning of the transformation and if the people behind a business understand this and are positioned to weather the storm while continuing to develop and refine products then they will at least have a shot at long term survial.
www.nogasamerica.com
I will take the controller cover off or trace the motor wires and get back to you, thanks very much for any help. And, hearty congrats on bringing new thinking to market.
ZEV has a dual wheel drive bike in a mud slinger Trail bike. Works fine in that application at low speeds, but you also cannot run exactly dual controllers as the front gets light on acceleration and the front just spins, and sometimes sideways on a wet road. You have to put a torque split system in place (in operation like 4 wheel drive cars use). The forks also are not made for the special loads. This is why the big motor in the front fork e Bicycles often tear up the forks. On a scooter you are just holding the top of the fork tube in a clamp. You do not even have triple clamps like a cycle.
That heavy hub motor on the front really makes the bike pound on rough payment also. The front forks were not made for that. The front end wants to dance out from under you in a hard turn on a bumpy road with serious front end drift toward the ditch. Not good for "spirited riding"
The guy took the easy way to build a higher power bike. Probably because he did not know how to cool a bigger motor and they are not available off of anyones shelf. It can be done, but its a lot of work. ZEV will launch an +80 mph 8200 watt bike in about 60 days, we have bikes and motors though 13,500 in testing. And they are all hub motors. So it can be done. I am driving an 8200 now all loaded down with sandbags to try to make it overheat.
After the big anvil effect on the front wheel, the really big problem with this bike design is if they did not build a new chassis for the bike to hold more battery to make up for the 2X juice consumption. ZEV builds its own frames and they can handle 120 volt nominal battery packs with up to 5.2 Kwh of battery. So we can get away with it. Otherwise you are just giving the customer a very short ride. Assuming the guy is running dual 80 amp controllers he is sucking down 160 amps. If he is running dual 100s then he is pulling 200 amps. This gets to be critical as the battery really do not like anything near or above 180 amps max. So dual motors with standard controllers means a 50% reduction in range and possibly a very short battery life.
72 mph sounds out of line. The motors have the 10.8 OD in a 13 inch wheel casting from Laqui Aluminum that most everyone uses. The OD means big torque, but not a lot of speed unless you jump up the volts. A motor in that OD in that wheel takes 84 volts nominal to run 72 mph. Unless that standard (what the Chinese call the Thunder bike) bike has been bumped from 72 to 84 volts it is really a 62 mph bike, not 72 mph. Those motors are very predictable. There are a few people making different windings for the motor inside, but they all run within a fraction of each other.
DH Zehrbach
I think we have to give James at Nogas credit for going overseas and sourcing, designing, and innovating. We dont know yet what the result will be. There is serious riding and thrashing and then there is commuting.....what works for a 5+KW commuter scooter will not do for an electrified Ducati.
Oh, we are talking smack now! So, the unsprung weight is a problem, not just in bumps, but when you throw the bike around. Also, dual drive in bikes are not well studied as far as what happens in a turn, with slip, drift, braking, transitions. We dont know what can happen if the front wheel overdrives in a corner when the rear steps out (known as pushing).
Precession is affected by powering a wheel from the center, as the power comes on and off without freewheeling, it will either stand the bike up under throttle or pull it down into the turn, depending on what the rear is doing. On a "normal motorcycle', powering out of a turn stands that bike up, as you want. Im not sure what an unsynched dual drive will do.
Now, for putting around town and in straight lines, who cares? But for thrashing (I was thrashing the EVD today....it was...interesting), who knows that strangeness a dual drive can bring i the wet, with the rear stepping out some. What is recoverable on a chain or shaft rear drive (both feel and act different) is different with a hub drive.
Like i mentioned before the bike does tend to track straight when under acceleration. Don't hammer the throttle entering a corner.
As for going around a tight corner and the road is bumpy and your on gravel and its raining and your riding really fast etc. etc. etc........yes, you are going to have problems more than likely. I would recomend slowing down a little in these situations. If not, we sell replacement body panels for our scooters.
This scoot does achieve 72.6 mph according to gps. We use a different motor that has almost no torque whatsoever(by our standards) and is built purely for speed. The torque comes when you double em up.
I can assure you that it is safe, It does not cut your range in half, And it is a whole lot of fun.
We have single motor bikes too that aren't shabby if the dual motor thing is intimidating.
www.nogasamerica.com