Well, after driving every electric scooter manufacturer bughouse crazy with my research questions, I had to go with the Martin EVD @ 2,399 shipped. There was no way around it, all the others are either almost bankrupt, don't return calls, or have no track record so to speak. The EVD, whatever R. Martin's long term plans are, has thousands of units out in the field, many reviews, many spare parts, and was just too good a deal to be ignored. I will set about getting LifePO and BMS installed ASAP - Andy, you are on call.
I had actually pulled the trigger on a Native A6, the dealer, a Harlan Flagg at Hollywood Electrics was very knowledgeable, patient to a fault, but....a unit labeled "in-stock" should not ship in 4-6 weeks. Other than that misunderstanding, he is guy that you can deal with, knows the product, knows the market, knows the manufacturer (Todd at Electric Motor Sport, aslo very knowledgeable. I plan on ordering two Native A6 without batteries and having Andy build the LifePO packs and BMS.
You have to be realistic when buying this stuff. One guy in Nevada with a "fleets worth" of 5KW scooters....what am I supposed to do , whip out a credit card for someone I cant get on the phone, cant get another owner's endorsement? And. I will not own a LifePO bike without BMS...those cells are fragile.
So, I bought the EVD. Could have put the money toward a big gas scooter like my old Aprilia 500, and still might buy one too. Its only money, why save on the eve of the Mayan Apocalypse. ?
Hey - congrats! Your story is like mine - bugging the vendors, getting turned off, deciding on the EVD VRLA for 2399 three weeks ago. I have 65 miles on it now, did 30 today. Mid-50s for temperature, but the batts were outside overnight at 30 degrees. 13 miles downhill, 4 miles of farting around practicing with cones, U-turns, full stops, etc, for my license endorsement test, then home uphill. I weigh 185 and the Hi-Vis yellow riding suit I got must weigh 15. So 200 pounds. No headlight use. 47 mph max, 30 mph coming home to save power. I was absolutely out of juice at my driveway.
Since I hear these packs gain life with the first several cycles, and they were cold last night, I am happy enough with that range. My wife reported the turn signals are pretty wimpy and I should use hand signals when I can.
I also plan to go LiFePo when these VRLAs die. I will be hammering them pretty hard. When weather allows I will be doing 4 17 mile legs per day, with charges for 4 to 5 hours in between the first three, plus overnight.
Aerodynamics... I'm 6' tall and am way above the windshield. My neck can not take the forward tuck position. I tried a backward lean, it helps a bit with wind resistance. Am considering two things. Modifying the front for a taller and wider aero windshield. This looks to be trickier than I orginally thought, but maybe. Handlebar clearance would be an issue. The other is to streamline my body more. I will have to wear a pack anyway, so I will find one that is a good shape and won't flap. I'm considering a chestpiece, too. Some sort of padded aero shape to match up with my helmet. (Yes, I will get Mae West jokes at work... oh well.)
Let's stay in touch... randal (at) bmi.net
Ist off, in traffic, you must have the headlight on, statistics bear that out. And, I agree with your above assessment that the scooter is probably in need of some mods regarding wind protection. I am an experienced motorcyclist, and I know the wind can be a big fatigue and economy factor. You can Check out Givi for a windscreen, but you will have to modify the mounts.
The LifePO conversion will be costly. I guess Andy will be making his next month's pay from me soon. The weight savings alone are worth it.
Yah, I know. I'll use the light when actually commuting into town traffic. This run was all rural road, and I knew I was going to be close on power. I think I'll install a modulator for the low beams.
Have you adjusted the rear shock level yet? Looks like it would be easier with the weight off the rear wheel. Mine came in the middle setting, I think I bottomed out once yesterday.
Have you quantified the weight difference yet? Besides range, I guess there would be an agility bonus, too. TTYL.
My EVD is scheduled for delivery this week. I have owned many, many large Maxi scooter, motorcycles, and Electrics. I was in the PEV business in 1999-2001, I sold the original Curries, Ego when they were new, Oxygen , Zappy, and more. What a disaster. Too early and 9/11 killed off that Xmas.
The same 50+ AH batteries in a higher voltage for the EVD, say a 75-77 volt pack (controller is rated to 80V) is 100-125l lbs lighter than SLA.. Of course, the real benefit is charge rate and longevity if the batts are managed properly. With a good management scheme, the LifePO can last for years and perform almost like new for at least 4-5 years. In that time, you will have spent close to 1/2 that price in SLAs every season or two, depending on how you use them.
Currently, it is going to cost more than the scooter's buying price to get a BMS and 60+AH of LifePO at a quality somewhat better than Thundersky. Now, that Native A6 40AH with thudersky is a 1k premium over the SLA version, which is a steal. I think any quoted me over 3,3,00 or more with BMS and charger for the EVD.
5 k + all in is a lot of bread for a scooter that cant go on a regular road trip due to range limitations. But, I am not doing this to be practical....The current crop of 5KW electric scooters with average quality LifePO and no BMS is a waste if money. I dont want to spend time managing hard to reach batteries, adding balance leads, etc. So, the Native A6, with a fully managed set of Thundersky's (LVC, discharge rate and charge limiting) with a decent 15A charger, is a real deal for a smaller framed urban commuter.
Great advice and analysis, thanks.
I just got home from my first two-way commute to work. 42 degrees at departure. 17 miles in 32 minutes in through town, where my truck using the highway takes 24 minutes. I was well above 50% on the batts. I used the headlight all the way. 3 hours on the charger while I worked...I shut it down 'cause rain was threatening and it was outside. The needle was pegged but the charger was still running. Light rain on the way home, I pushed a little harder and I think it took just over 30 minutes. Top speed 52 mph indicated. Charge is a little below 50% due to speed and uphill. (+1,100 feet to the house from work.) Rain-X on the visor worked great - excellent vision. Rain at night with lights might be tougher.
I need a waterproof scooter cover, so I can leave the charge on in rain.
I'm stoked! I've been thinking about this since November! Yay!
SO, it seems like the EVD / EFUN is a decent little local commuter, well done, I think we will be happy, and according to research, most EVD owners are mostly happy. So, at this price of 2,400$ (a Steal) what could the gas world have given us, I have owned several 500's Aprilia, Suz Burgman 650:
2,400 will get you a new 125CC Honda or Yamaha urban commuter, or a used Vespa, Piaggio or Aprilia 50. The gas scooters might be better for touring, but in that 125 and under size range, not so much. The electrics overall (averaged over all models) will not need a major tuneup, or have that one "really big disease", that most gas scooter owners either pay for one way, or the other. Even if you maintain yourself, as I did with the Scarabeo 500, its pricey - and Im not talking gas. The electrics can have big failures too, but.....mostly not. We shall see.
My expectations for this EVD are right in line with what it is sold to do, local commutes and shopping, runabout under 30 miles. For motor bike touring, there is the Big $$ for a Piaggio MP3, or a used maxi of some sort, or not having a bigger bike this year. Maybe buy that iMac I really need for work.
Meanwhile the old cat got loose and got lost, and thanks to my Schwinn Stealth with LifePO, I found him lying on his side 2 blocks away, he could not make it home, I carried him. So, score one for the tiny electrics. Back to the EVD:
There seems to be around 2k units sold under various marques here in all of North America. The Martin Bike has a few tweaks, and they sold over the last few years several hundred. All the parts are common, the important parts, and the running frame can take a new wheel / motor and controller if needed. I hear from reliable sources the Motor is good for more watts than rated, and the controller os tested to an honest 80V, so.......
!
Sorry about the cat - wishing him well.
What batt do you consider a little better than the Thundersky?
Looking at thunderstruck-ev, they have a brand called Hi-Power. Calculating things out for size and weight, theoretically I could fit 22 of the Hi=Power 50 aH into the space, for a "72.6" volt system. Weight is 81.4 pounds vs 168.5 for the BB EB50-12. Batt cost would be $1,760.
This would give me more range, speed when needed if the existing motor could handle the amps, and more agility with the lower weight. Would need a BMS and 72V charger, of course. Another $600? Same cost as the scooter originally. 4 years out of the pack? $435 per year. 5 years? $352 per year.
5 replacement BBs run $725 and I know they'll fit, no bms and no new charger. Hmmm. 1 year = $725 per year, 2 years = $360 per year.
I anticipate 600 charge cycles a year.
Fewer trips under the skin for replacement and better performance looks to cost about the same... hmmmm.
Yeah, CHarlie the Cat, he will probably outlast us all. On the batteries: Guess there are many different quality LifePO's and thunderskys are like the middle quality, and there are better cells out there according to Andy at Falcon. He is the expert. As to the cost of a whole bikes worth of
LifePO and BMS, charge manager and monitor / charger....its a Frankenstein affair that seems to have a downside....integration and the stock controller seems to be the worst of both worlds, limited at the top end to protect idiots, and poorly calibrated to the throttle divider so as to be jerky and in need of an experts hand. More below.
Ok, my EVD arrived and that was fast. It Shipped like Saturday from the Rmartin Dock, and here we are on Tuesday! Wow. No Damage except a small crack on the
"thingy".
What can I say? The rest of the bike is intact. The fit and finish is not bad...not Honda or Suzuki quality, but not bad, Its a very attractive bike. I had a person with a brain and patience assemble the bits and uncrate it. All went well. I took the papers to the insurance agent, they were clueless but wrote a policy like it was a 4 HP Motorcycle. Then I went to Mass RMV, the brain dead, the people who couldn't get a job in the private sector. They don't get it. I told them if they got in my way to get this "green Vehicle registered and titled, I would take to the Governor. Self Same governor was recently on TV saying, "Mass will not be a place where the RMV stops you from titling en electric vehicle with a legit VIN", yeah....
The droids at the RMV seemed to take a certain pleasure sending me home without a plate, where I proceeded to ride. I had an Oxygen at one time in CA, and if I got stopped, I just said, "officer, its Electric!". So I took a ride on my new EVD. Tomorrow, I will follow up on calls with the Mass RMV Registrars office of blah bl;ah. I expect them to get with the program or I will have my reporter at the Globe write an expose. I will have my plate tomorrow, and revenge, too, somehow int he media to expose the idiots on HD Cam. Stay posted.
So my ride:
The bike rides fine. The power is good. The acceleration for town work and secondary roads is acceptable. It handles as well as a medium Vespa, and the controls and gauges are Chinese, what can I say,? It is what it is and for 2,399 shipped I dare anyone to find a better outcome. I so happy the way it is. Its a good quality charger for a 5A unit. That a lot of watts that have to be pumped. Now, it is no Aprilia, but the Scarabeo of the 06 variety is /was $6K. So, I plan un really using and abusing this scooter.
Here is the thing about sinking 3 grand into chargers, and batts - the stock controller is just functional. Yes, new LifePO batts would lighten the bike at least 100-150 lbs. and last longer, but the stock controller, while a reliable unit by all indications, is not able to really, really offer the performance that new batteries could afford. If it's all about range and weight, maybe, but I want a more agressive and progressive and batts alone will not give me that. Im not sure that a Kelly can be used with the EVD motor, and there is another expense.
Which brings me to the point of integration. Better to start with a set of components that are somewhat meant to work well together, than to take a 2400$ scooter and sink 3-3500 into it for a total of 5k+
I spoke with the man at Emped. He seems to know whats what about the factories, the designs, the batteries, he has his $$$ in the business. He took me through the cycle of sourcing and importing the components and assembling in NV. SO my point?
I am not sure that there is a good raison detre to pour money into this particular EVD. Maybe more research. Or use for a while, keep or sell, and go for a well proven 5-6 KW scooter with a fully managed Lithium pack next year when the demons are exorcised.
Re: Unpacking. I ended up just using the sawzall on the steel frame and cutting it basically in half to free the bike. I had some paint chipping on the rear rack from the ties, and some rub damage to the brakeline guard which was wrapped and taped on top of the seat. The handlebar grips are shit, will get some better ones.
Re: Registration. Sorry, man. I took the papers sent with the bike to my Dept of Licensing office and walked with plates in 10 minutes.
Re: Frankenbike. Yeah...makes sense. Maybe I can hand it down to the wife or grandaughter later. You are right about the sensitive throttle. Low speed maneuvers like cones for the test are tricky - a little goose and you overshoot.
Did another 35 miles today. Should check the tire pressure and axle tightness again before I go tomorrow. Driver's License endorsement skills test Friday morning.
Got the title and reg sorted out. Brother, what a bunch over there - Hurai not on the approved mfr list Now they are.
I was out shopping with the bike today, and I'm still quite pleased, and I am sure that the controller is programmed to protect the inexperienced, and to frustrate the expert. But overall a very pleasing ride - refreshing, quiet, smooth, plenty of power for the town roads, and I did my run to where else? Whole Foods on my electric scooter, what a cliche/
So, all in all, I would do it again, but now I want a late model 5KW + LifePO 65MPH++ scooter with turbo fans for flying. That was promised to me at the 1967 worlds fair in NY.
Had the EVD over the Bridge here in Beverly MA, a long gradual cresting hill. I had it freshly charged (hours) and was wide open on the quiet evening boulevards, cresting the bridge, wide open with a good start, I was up and over at 45, min.
The controller has certainly been programmed to save idiots from themselves but will never save a true hopeless case, while an experienced rider could really use the full range of the throttle. When the bike is at +25, the controller allows a full whack, according to my Amp Clamp - a massive peak of 100+ amps, perhaps more (I have to set the capture mode) and there is hard limiting at stop to 15 MPH.
Even experts have to be a little limited on electric bikes, as the torque is max at 0, but the current state on the EVD is as if a bunch of nanny designers had an algonquin roundtable.
I aslo slam banged over the very neglected streets here; the suspension is compliant but burdened, and who can blame the poor bike? IT has the weight of the rider on-board before the actual rider mounts up! Those BBs are heavy man.
The charger is a very high quality unit that gives an honest 3 stage curve and the full 5 AMPS for most of the soak - that helps keep a long charge cycle as short as possible. This SLA version of the EVD needs a 15 AMP charger -anyone know where to get a 60V 15 AMP charger?
Yeah, my experience up hills also. Oh well, I still got to work in 29 minutes and back in 31.
This charger is the closest to useful I could find, just the plug type to deal with:
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/bc-hwc1b-60v-fslash-12a.htm
Here are many different charger.
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3
They also have SLA version for all of them.
However it will deliver from China to you. Any way not high deliver cost.
When select a EV, take care of the driving range we demand. Also a the Amp of charger.
www.evassemble.com all for EVs
If you are finding ev parts, this will be a website deserves your visit.
Don't hijack the discussion with product boosting, rudeboy.
A great week! One 35 mile round trip every day, with a charge while in town. Indicated 55 mph max speed. Commute time one way down to 28.5 minutes. Passed my Skills Test so I am "Endorsed."
While my DMV registration was slick, the indurance, not so much. Turns out State Farm has a pull down list of Makes and Models. "Huari" or "EVD" are not in the list, and withour an approved entry in that field, the program will not continue for the poor office agent. They're working on it.
At the Skills test...heh. They have two course layouts for over and under 500cc bikes. So the first guy is a 1200 Harley. Then me. "How many ccs?" Well, it's a 60V 3 kw rated at 4 hp. Huh? Gotta call the State Capitol to see what to do. Cracked me up. Of course we decided on the under 500 course and proceeded.
Re: faster charger and plugs. What do you think about leaving the C14 plug in place for use with the 5a charger, just going downstream (above the fuse) with a Y connector and adding wire up to an SB50 connector that would also be accessible from under the seat for the 12a charger? Any issues with the plug that is not in use for either charger being unsafe?
I dont see any problem adding a connector for the new charger as long as you dont use both at the same time, unless wired for bank charging, in which you would need 5 chargers with diode isolation.
Come to think of it, the best and only reasonable upgrade to these EVD's with SLA is the Charger, its just not worth the extra batts the way the controller is. I have posted to see if anyone has experience with a Kelly Upgrade that is not too painful. That could be 400 ish worth the time and expense to get more accel off the line, perhaps more efficiency.
I think I am going to order that 12a charger, double the use of the bike.
It appears right now with the 5a charger that it takes about an hour to replace 4 to 5 miles worth of running. Improving that to 8 to 10 would be more handy. 17 miles to town replaced in 2 hours is a lot more real life friendly than 4 hours.
Let me know how you handle the plug mod, if you will.
I'll [probably just make an adapter to fit the existing plug.
Adapter makes more sense than second plug...
Came home last night after dark for the first time. I'm pretty happy with the headlight, actually. High beam throws pretty far with a good side pattern. I was comfortable at 50 mph. It doesn't seem that $200 for VisionX Solos will be necessary. The High/Low switch is a rocker so flashing is pretty easy.
Then...two raccoons who were into it with each other came up out of the rightside ditch about 30 feet ahead of me. They made it about halfway into my lane as I slowed and swerved left. Then, for some reason, they rolled back into the ditch. I'm not sure I could have missed them if they'd kept coming across. I've hit a coon with my truck and never saw it, only later going the other way did I know for sure what it was.
Would I make it over one without crashing? Hmmm. Maybe slower at night - max 40 - is a good idea.
I am currently looking at a 2008 model with under 20 miles, seems like the dealer simply can't get it off the floor. The cost is $1900, and seems like a good deal. Has anything been changed about the bikes from 2008 to now? Is Battery life a concern if the bike has not been a daily rider since the batteries were new 2 years ago? I'm pretty sure it's the basic lead acid batteries.
Thanks for the great forum, and insight you provide as dealers and consumers. This is my first time ever considering a 2 wheel vehicle, and I'm quite apprehensive.
The batteries should be fine so long as they were charged periodically and were not left to sit in a discharged state. I am selling one of these bikes too! Its a good little ride. I mnfr my own line of electric scooters that of course I think are much better, but these bikes are not bad. They are fairly straight forward, they just go, no regeneration or reverse or any bells and whistles to speak of but that stuff is just for kicks anyway. I have ridden these three I have at my shop and they are well balanced and can flow with traffic on any surface street and get up hills fairly well. The main point about buying any scoot like this is to be sure you have a source for parts if you are mechanically inclined. If not, have a local shop with an experienced ev scooter mechanic that can keep you rolling if the bike has issues.
www.nogasamerica.com
The one I bought last month is a 2008. I've got 425 miles on it and the batts are doing what they are advertised to do. I agree it is basic, solid, does what it is supposed to. 35 miles averaging 35 mph on hilly ground with 200 pounds aboard.
Thank you very much for the responses! I am not sure what mechanics are in my area, and knowing that R Martin is no longer pushing these makes me worry a bit. I'll keep lirking and try to make up my mind soon. Ride safe, folks :)
Well, I too am happy to say that I just recently bought an R Martin EVD this past week. $2399 shipped is just too good of a deal to pass up. Put about 70 miles on it so far and I just love it. I found that the speedometer is about 5 mph fast, anyone else? I really enjoy riding it so far and hope that it stands up to the reputation that I have read up on in all the forums I visit. I think this is much better then the XM-3500 anyway, so many people with problems on that model.
For those who would like to write a review, I found this site a nice place to show a good comparison of Electric Mopeds that are out there. Anyway, I wrote up my review for my EVD here...
http://www.wikipik.org/best-electric-motorcycles-mopeds-scooters-reviews/vc16
Shawn C
Hello all - I'm enjoying the discussion. I bought a 2008 Demo EVD back in December. I just added another battery to make it a 72V cycle hoping for a little more range and better speed. Well the "Rev A" controller on this 2008 was not designed for 80V like they say. I did figure out how to modify it, but I was lucky, an electronics engineer, and had some experience with teeny (2 mm long) parts on PCBs. If you want details, see the "60V to 72V EVD conversion" thread.
The one truly annoying problem I have had is with a violent steering wobble even at low speeds. I finally took apart the front end and added a steering damper. (Not easy to do.) Much better, but you can still get a "tank slapper" at high speeds (>30 Mph) if you take one hand off the handle bars to adjust your helmet.
Oh - speaking of helmets - I'm told Rain-X is a no-no on helmet visors. Evidently the special material used deteriorates if any chemicals other than water are used on it.
So - I'm having fun, and it sure is a lot cheaper for a "mid-life crisis" toy than a red convertible....
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
I think that the wobble is varied across different builds, rider weight, and surfaces. Mine is minor, and I recommend everyone take off the tupperware and torque the sterring head. Carefully.
On the controller, Mr. Engineer, did you figure out the motor phase colors of the wires? I want to replace the controller with a Kelly.
Help! Why doesn't Marin know this...geeez. That's the problem with all of these electrics, even the good ones have no "brand". There is no centralized repository or responsibility for service knowledge. Performance, specs, road tests, etc. Its a typical early adopter market and has nothing to do with Green sentiment.
No amount of Green Sentiment will make the general public buy these scooters with all the quirks, poor to no quality (the EVD is just barely adequate to embarrassing in certain aspects...the suspension?)
Overall, My EVD is Ok, but I expect more. I'm coming Mr., Z, work got busy! See, a an engineer makes a one off quality scoot, and its a custom build, you cant just go and get one. Its an enthusiasts market, like......steam powered ATV's.
Hey guys -
760 miles on mine now. No steering wobble for me, at least not beyond anything I would expect with smallish wheels.
I posted a pic as a topic of my hub motor when it leaked a bit of lube. Tightened the allen head screws on the hub plate and no further issues. Also, even though feedback from the manufacturer via the distributor was promised, none received. (I've calculated the hub/wheel is doing about 950 rpm at 50 mph.)
I gave the brakes and tires a real full stop test on wet pavement the other night. A raccoon distracted me on the right, then the deer came out from the left. Think they planned that move? Anyway, straight, short stop, no skidding. That makes me happier than getting 50 miles a charge would.
When I am hammering this thing for 70 miles a day, I am running the charger 15 hours. I think I should get a backup charger and be ready for a fan bearing to go, or something else. Probably a 12a charger.
I also am thinking about going ahead and buying the replacement batteries when I see a great price and being ready for the down season to replace them. I'll probably have 300 cycles on them by late fall. I might get more next year out of them, but they also might die right in the middle of riding season. I'd rather be down and disassembled in January than July.
I agree that 70 miles a day is pretty heavy use. What SOC do you think you have at the end of a ride? If it is below 20% remaining, planning a replacement at this point might be a good idea.
You can monitor pack health by taking individual battery voltage readings
The goal is to have all batteries within a tenth of a volt or so, and for every battery to be at least above 10.5V at the end of the longest contemplated ride. If one battery is REALLY low, you're cooking it every time you charge.
There are two failure modes: 1) general capacity reduction over time or 2) pack imbalance, where one battery has reduced capacity below its neighbors. One bad battery can sink a pack.
Onset of #1 is gentle, and it is just a matter of riding slower for a few weeks while the replacements come in.
Onset of #2 can be more sudden, but regular monitoring can give you early warning.
Mark
On the subject of which color is which phase - Sorry - My controller is made up of two identical boards (Rev A). It looks like three thick wires come out of the motor, then after a couple feet of wire, there is a bulge where they are spliced to 6 wires to the controller. It seems the two boards are connected in parallel, but there are six different colors. I believe the later controllers use a single board, and so don't need the splice. I'm also not an expert in motor control, so I have no idea how to identify hall sensors an phase.
As far as rider weight - how do you adjust the rear suspension? I am heavy, but my skinny mechanic had the steering wobble when he tried it too. Maybe they have improved the design some since my cycle.
Steam-powered ATVs?? COOL!! Where can I get one???
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
The wobble is a very serious safety concern. ASAP, you need to check all linkages in the front end, especially the head tube steering bearings. There should be NO looseness, and only a slight drag. If you are not confident about this check, ask a mechanic.
I suspect this is more noticeable when the front end is lightly loaded, with the rider well back on the seat.
Mark
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