I have a 2008 EVD with Lead-Acid batteries. I asked the support guys at R-Martin if the scooter could be upgraded to 72v by just adding another battery, and the answer I got was "Sure - the controller is rated for 80v", though they did say they had never tried this themselves, they had heard of at least one customer who had. So, I added another battery of the same size and type (though it is rated for 40Ah instead of 50Ah), bought a 72v Soneil charger, and charged it up. Now the motor does not come on at all. I bypassed the new battery (downgrading it back to 60v), and the motor works the same as before. The support guys at R-Martin are guessing there may be some overvoltage protection circuit in the controller of which they were unaware. Anyone have any experience with this controller? Anyone know what controller it is? I would love to see the specs on it.
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Support V is for Voltage
I opened up the controller - It is a pair of PCBs marked "BLC3000 Rev A". It looks like they are connected in tandem.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Could you discharge the stock batteries, then add the discharged additional battery? That would rule out any assembly error being the cause of the problem.
If a high voltage cutoff device is causing the problem, then empty batteries might be within the allowed range. You could then charge the batteries up in small steps to find out at what voltage the cutoff happens.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Does your controller look like this one: http://wookware.org/pics/moped/controller/ (which is marked 'BLC3000 Rev 1'). This appears to be OK up to 85V volts or so, but I haven't yet actually tested it out above 54V
Wookey
Sakura s50 (Efun A)
The controller boards look similar to the one in the pictures, but not exactly the same. Also, I have two identical boards connected in tandem. BLC3000 REV A
If the rev numbering is similar to what we used at an engineering firm I used to work for, the Rev 1 is later than the Rev A.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
I bet it's an over-voltage issue.
What's your pack voltage when fully charged and straight off the charger? If it's 80.x then try just leaving the lights on full beam until it dips below 80V and then give it a try.
Is your new charger tunable at all? It's going to be a PITA to have to leave the lights on... ;-)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I ran the test using headlights to discharge the batteries. (It took uncounted hours to discharge the batteries just a few volts.) The controller would not engage the motor when the battery voltage was 74.7V, but did engage the motor when the battery voltage was 73.6V. I found the circuit I believe is used to monitor battery voltage - Vin goes to R29, which is 140K Ohms, connected to R3 which is 10K Ohms, which goes to ground. The mid-connection is connected to pin 5 of the PIC, which is one of the analog inputs. At 73.6V battery, this point measures 4.9V - The voltage divider circuit divides the input voltage by 15. I plan to change out R29 to something close to 170K (It looks like 165K is the closest standard value) to change the divider to divide by 18 to accommodate the extra battery. The question remains if the rest of the controller as well as the motor can handle the increased voltage. I have asked R-Martin support for the manufacturer and part numbers of the controller and motor are so i can research the specs, but I have not heard back. Not sure if I will hear back.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
I doubt R-Martin will be able to get the information - but they may surprise us.
Here's what I'd suggest:
1) You have the controller open so check out the part numbers on the power electronics in the controller (the big capacitors?) and see if you can find their rating. Then you should simply be able to do the math and determine if it's got a chance of handling the increased power. Of course there's other failure points possible but starting there would give you a quick read of yes or no.
2) Even if you do fry the controller you should be able to replace it with a reasonably priced and much more capable Kelly controller. My only pause is not knowing if this is three phase brushless motor you have - I'm pretty sure it is. The other fallback you have is that you can replace the motor and the controller.
3) With increased power comes increased heat. You'll want to consider upgrading the power lines from the controller to the motor and you may also end up needing to replace the hall sensors in the motor (they can be finicky little buggers!)
Of course at some point you might just decide that 5 batteries rather than 6 is "good enough" :-)
Good luck and keep us posted.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Good idea on the caps - The larger caps are mostly hidden under the heat sink, but I think i can make out "100V", so I don't think I need to worry. Plus the heat sink should provide extra shielding if they explode (or extra shrapnel).
The controller uses two identical boards, with a total of 6 different colored heavy gauge wires.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Well the resistors arrived (tiny things - I'm getting too old for this detail), and I replaced R29 as i planned. The voltage divider did it's thing and the voltage at the PIC analog input is indeed within range, but the motor does not turn. My next guess is that this is used for the "low-voltage" detection, and the high-voltage detection occurs elsewhere. I haven't figured out where yet.
Oh well......
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
How many heavy gauge wires do you have going from the controller to the rear wheel?
How many fine gauge wires (hall sensor inputs) do you have going from the wheel to the controller?
I'm wondering if your two identical boards / six wires are just doubled up in parallel to provide a 3 phase output. Or if it's something different? (In case you need to get a replacement controller...)
Now, are you sure you wouldn't just rather buy one of mine with 96V? (<-- Just kidding! I'm glad just to offer mildly useful suggestions and encouragement from the sidelines!)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I would love to have one of your 96V cycles, but cannot afford it at the moment. Plus - It's a fascinating puzzle to try to make this scooter work - Better than Sudoku!
Without unwrapping the set of wires from the motor to the controller, I can tell you that the bundle is thin for a couple feet, then doubles in size before it gets to the controller, so I would say that only three heavy gauge wires exit the motor, which are then coupled to the six that go to the controller. I'm guessing the MOSFETs used in Rev A could not handle the full current load, so two controller boards are used in parallel.
Now if I can just figure out how the controller is detecting overvoltage.....
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
So that's good news - you'll always have a fallback which will be to purchase a kelly KBL controller.
You might actually consider unwrapping that bundle of power wires. We sheath ours with a nylon mesh - anything to get a bit of extra airflow and cooling. The power wires are one of the weakest links in the chain as far as heat durability goes.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
At least with Sudoku, you know there is a solution - I'm starting to wonder if I will figure this out just looking at the PCB. A schematic would certainly help.
I've been looking at the Kelly controllers - The KBS 72V controller rated for 50A looks about right - The scooter was sold as a 3000W scooter, so I assume that's what the hub motor is rated. The KBL controller is more expensive, and is rated 100A.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
I think I have it! After studying the PCB, and poking around with a voltmeter, I found a second voltage divider circuit hat also feeds an analog input to the PIC. After changing the appropriate resistor on each PCB to divide the voltage by 18 instead of 15, the controller turns on the motor even when the 6 batteries are fully charged. Now I need to run some test rides to see if the motor starts to overheat. - After I get the whole thing put back together.
Why is it there are always extra pieces left over when you put something back together?
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Ahh, yes - a phenomenon that I have experienced myself! Just make sure you don't let the magic smoke out and all should be fine.
Well done on tracking down that other voltage divider. Good luck with your test rides. I think you'll be fine.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
72V Test ride complete - No scientific measurements, just my imopressions:
1) No noticeable change in acceleration - I still get 0-30 MPH in a whopping 15 seconds.
2) Top speed went from 53 to 55 Mph downhill with a following wind.
I did have some trouble with the motor cutting out intermittently after 20 minutes of "hard" riding - I have seen that with the 60V setup as well. I suppose either the controller or motor is overheating. It would be nice if there were some warning that the temp was high so I could "back-off" and go easier on the motor. There is a red LED on the instrument panel, but I don't know what it is for (haven't noticed if it ever comes on). The operator "manual" (more like a pamphlet) doesn't mention it.
I also am having trouble with the charge gauge intermittently dropping to 0. At first I thought I had blown it out with the higher voltage, but a couple of whacks on the side of the instrument panel brings it back to life, so I must have a loose connection in there somewhere.
What I haven't mentioned is that I have also added a steering damper to the lower front fork. The steering wobbled pretty violently even at low speeds if I didn't have a firm grip on both handlebars. The mechanic said he thought the bike frame was designed for a lighter bike, and such a heavy bike (due to the Lead-Acid batteries) should have a much heavier-duty front fork assembly. Adding the steering dampener (basically a small shock-absorber that expans and contracts when you turn the handle-bars left and right) was very difficult, and required taking the front plastics off, and some ingenuity and a lot of patience. (A little cussing and blood too.) Anyway - that's likely when I messed up the charge gauge connection.
The steering is now much more stable, but you can still get a "tank-slapper" at higher speeds if you take one hand off the handlebars to adjust your helmet.
Hey - Thanks for the encouragement!
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Hi
I just bought an EVD and was wondering about putting in another cell to jack up the voltage to increase acceleration. Sorry to hear it didn't work.
I was wondering if anyone knew of a desulphator product that works with the EVD battery system?
More power to you...heh.
I have considered all kinds of mods to my stock 3kw EVD also. (1 more batt, aero mods, lighting, etc) However, if I value my time at a reasonable rate, none of them actually pencil out. The stock unit does the job I need done: it carries me from home to work in 28 minutes (24 minutes by truck.)
Particularly given the impossibility of getting technical info from the builder, dinking around has no payback for me. As I have said elsewhere, I am running the charger 15 hours on a day I ride 70 miles, so I will get a 12a charger and plug adapter for the day the 5a charger goes up in smoke. I expect I will have to replace the batts this winter in order to get a full season next year.
The use of my time that does pencil out is researching which fully enclosed 3 or 4 wheeler to buy for commuting in all weather except deep snow. When snow reigns, my 4WD Dodge is hard to beat. (Blasphemous as that is...)
I agree about the time element - it has to be something you want to do and enjoy, not something you do for return on investment.
My battery guy tells me that you should use a 5A charger with a battery rated at 50 Ah. I don't know whether a 12A charger would harm the batteries or not.
I would love to hear the results of your research into a fully enclosed EV. Which forum will you likely post that on?
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
I checked with BB the battery manufacturer. These can take ".3C" charge rate - .3 x 50 - or 15 amps. So a 12 is safe.
Don't know about the search and where I'll post. I like this community so probably here.
I misspoke (mistyped?) - The LED is described in the operator manual. I figured it was probably trying to tell me something useful, so I cracked open the bike once more, and tracked down the broken connection. I now have a nice blinking LED (I have the breaker switch off, so it is letting me know).
While I had the controller open, I took a good look at all the input wires. I can identify the Hall effect sonsor inputs, the Brake light sensor, the throttle and LED indicator. But I don't see any kind of sensor that would inform the controller if the motor were to overheat, though I do see a heat sensor in the heat sink of the controller. I thought I remembered one of the LED codes indicating the motor had overheated, but I guess that really means the controller is too hot. Is there any way for the controller to tell if the motor is too hot using just the hall sensors? I don't think they would operate any differently at different temps.....
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Oh dear - It appears I have let some magic smoke escape ....
After reassembling the controller and instrument panel, I tried a test run. Since i had the breaker off while diagnosing the LED signal problem, it went nowhere, and blinked twice. When I switched on the breaker, it "popped" and reset the breaker. I opened the controller once again, and found black coloring around the KSI red wire input - This is the 60V (now 72V) input from the key switch - blackened on both boards. Also, one board had blackened close to one of the MOSFETs. I have no idea what I did to cause that. I will spend a little more time looking around the instrument panel connections to see if I shorted something out.
So - looks like I need a new controller after all. I'm looking at the Kelly KBS72121 -
(http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=529).
Looking at the wiring diagram in the operators manual, it says the motor is 6 phases. It also shows a motor overtemp signal, which ties into the brake light, which disengages the motor.
The Kelly controller will support regenerative braking. I'm toying with the idea of a "reverse throttle" on the left handlebar that can be used to control regenerative braking.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Removing the heat sink, I see at least one (maybe more) MOSFET is roasted - with two leads melted away. The only way I could think to cause this would be to short one of the phase wires to ground. I wonder if flexing the board disassembling and reassembling could have caused a short?
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Hi Tim:
I may be the other customer who coverted their EVD VRLA to 72 volts. Perhaps my experience was just dumb luck but I'll share with you what I did to make it happen. First, I ordered an identical battery from RMartin. Second, and upon the battery's arrival, I modified the obvious area for that added battery - level two, under the seat, added to the one battery on the second level. I then added some jumper wires to put the added battery in series with the others and wired the controller in to the series.
I was careful not to wire in the DC to DC controller off the sixth battery but kept it at the fifth one (in series) to avoid frying the converter with voltage beyond 60. For charging, I created my own bank system with six separate 1.5 amp battery maintainers. I had to splice in some added wire to their pig tails but wound up with six separate connectors that are inside the little compartment in front of the seat (locking). When I charge, I just connect each of the chargers to individual pig tails, making certain that each is protected sufficiently. The pig tails are protected with caps when not charging due to exposed ground wires for individual batteries that could connect with others and spark up a storm. This system essentially gives me identical votages for each battery and a mechanism to tell me if one of the batteries is failing. BTW, there is about a five minute difference between when the first battery reaches optimal voltage and the last one does. That merely tells me that the system is working. I rarely let the batteries get below half.
I weigh about 225 (shouldn't weigh that much but that isn't the point of this forum). I made 50 mph on the flat when the EVD ran on 60 volts. It now gets up to 55, taking a long time, as expected. The thrust off the line is scary actually and I have to tell would-be test drivers to take it easy on the grip to start with. The standard controller is pretty meager, in my estimation, and evidently uses lightswitch type values for inaugural pulse width modulation. I suspect that other controllers are much better (see below).
Now, I have the same problem with the thing overheating and just about dying. If it is a oool day, I am fine. Anything in the seventies or more and the scooter will slow down to a 5 mph crawl for about 100 yards, then start chugging on and off until the controller appears to reset and I take off as it nothing ever happened. When I get back to home after this occurs, the hub motor is very hot but hte controller seems to be about normal. My first controller lasted less than a mile before it ws shooting flame-style aparks out of it. RMartin sent me a new controller and that has worked fine.
Hard to know what is causing the slow-down to a crawl. With the lights on, the bike tends to surge a bit. I'll be riding at 35 mph and the thing then starts to slow down to 32 or so and it takes off again. I tend to add juice when this happens and suspect that it may be related to the overheating.
I'm now thinking about changing to a Sevcon Sepex controller. They have an 80 volt unit that is available through Electricmotorsports. One of my concerns is that the EVD wiring diagram isn't as descriptive as I'd like (and I pointed out a mistake in it to the factory and they concurred.) I'd like a breakdowm of the actual deployment of each color wire so that I don;t have to take the controller apart and figure out what goes where. Perhaps you have that down since you've been into the innards a bit more.
Anyway, just wanted to weigh in on this. Not sure how much help I've been. If you have some ideas about the overheating (that occurred equally under 60 volts and 72) I'd enjoy knowing about it.
Jeff
EVD VRLA converted to 72V
I dug into the wiring and documented everything as best I could. When I uncovered the heavy gauge wire connections, I see several covered in a heavy plastic/fabric tube, but two of them are covered in cheap plastic tape that has worn through at the bolts connecting the lugs. I suspect these shorted out when I was twisting the bundle to get to the diagnostic LED connector. So anyway, I need a new controller. I am 90% sure I will order a KBS7121 from Kelly Controls. Here are my wiring observations:
BLC3000 Rev A controller for 6 Phase 3KW hub motor on EVD Scooter
Two identical PCBs
Thick gauge wires:
Thickest RED - Power +
Two black med gauge wires - Gnd
Phase wires - connected to motor windings: Color in controller matches color from motor.
PCB1:
Label Color
MA Green
MB Yellow
MC Blue
PCB2:
Label Color
MA Black
MB Red
MC White
Motor sensor wire connector pin numbering: (arbitrary)
Clip
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10
Note: Connections labeled Gnd and 5VO on PCBs is reversed.
PCB Label Signal Color Connector Pin Color on opposite connector
1 GND 5V Red 5 Red
1 5VO Gnd Black 4 Black
1 HA Hall A1 Yellow 3 White
1 HB Hall B1 Blue 1 Purple
1 HC Hall C1 Green 2 Blue
2 GND 5V Red 10 Red
2 5VO Gnd Black 9 Black
2 HA Hall A2 Yellow 6 White
2 HB Hall B2 Blue 8 Purple
2 HC Hall C2 Green 7 Blue
To Bike controls:
Red KSI Battery power from Key switch Red
Purple BRK Brake signal (12V?) Purple
Red +5V Diagnostic LED + Red
White CZ Diagnostic LED - Green
Black Gnd Ground to Throttle Black
White IN Input from Throttle White
Red 5V +5V to Throttle Red
Other:
Motor over temp sensor output to brake light circuit (which also cuts off controller)
Black
Black/White
From the wiring schematic, I noticed the motor overtemp circuit ties in to the brake lights, so you should be able to tell if the motor is overheating by seeing if the brake lights are on when you are not using the brakes (or the kick-stand).
The Diagnostic table show that overheating will cause the LED to flash 2, then 3 times, but I don't see any way for the controller to know when the motor overheats, just when the controller overheats, so I would expect the LED to not flash when the motor is overheating.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Thanks for the detail. I, too, found the nylon sheathing around the bolted connectors and also felt that the route that the wires had to follow likely places a material strain on the loom. They were right to use different lengths of wire before the bolts, making it less likely that a short could occur. But, with all the twisting etc., such is bound to happen.
As far as Kelly Controllers, consider the following string, amongst many:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/kelly-controller-kdh14501-post-mortem-2-31915.html
I do want to upgrade my controller but am leaning toward the Sevcon Powerpak. There's stateside backing from a couple of distributors of these UK-built controllers.
Anway, I am grateful for your helpful comments and wish you well in this project. Please keep us updated on your progress and I will post more as my project moves along as well.
Jeff
EVD VRLA converted to 72V
Different length wires? - That would have been a good idea. Mine were all the same length.
The hub motor is a 6 phase BLDC motor. It looks to me like the SEVCON controllers are for 3 phase motors. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll keep looking around.
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Tim
Thanks for the info on the motor type. I had actually been considering changing out the motor and controller with a matched Kelly pair but the postings on customer service have made me think again. If you find a controller that works, please let me know. I am a bit frustrated with the slow-down to 5 mph routine - particularly if I'm in the left lane of a city four lane.
Jeff
EVD VRLA converted to 72V
Jeff,
I figure there's not much I can do if the motor is overheating, but if I can have some early warning, maybe I could slow down, but keep a respectable speed without reaching the motor safety limit.
First, what I need to know is whether it really is the motor overheating, or possibly the controller that is getting too hot. Since my controller is toasted, I can't run any experiments.
Next time you notice the motor cutting out could you check -
1) Is the Diagnostic LED blinking? If so- what pattern?
2) Do the brake lights come on when the motor cuts out, even when the brakes are not on, and the kick-stand is not down?
My theory is that since the motor over-temp is tied into the brake-light circuit, and does not go directly to the controller, then the controller does not really know when the motor overheats, it just sees brakes depressed, so it cuts off the motor. The controller does know, however, when the controller itself is overheating - there is a sensor buried in the middle of the heat-sink, that ties into the PCB. So if the controller reports overheating (2 flashes, followed by 3), then it must be the controller overheating.
I want to learn more about the temp sensors - It seems the motor sensor is a simple on/off switch (like a thermostat?) that applies the 12V signal to the brake light circuit. If it is the motor overheating, then I want to explore a way to monitor the motor temp with some kind of analog gauge. If the controller is overheating, maybe my new controller (which I have not yet picked) will handle the heat better than my old. If not, then I want to learn about the temp sensor in the controller, and see if there is a way to connect it up to a gauge on the instrument panel.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with adding some kind of air scoop to cool the controller and motor? I see one of the comments in this thread suggests unwrapping the wiring from the motor and using nylon netting to hold the wires in place to provide a little extra cooling.
Tim
Tim Williams
Electric Motor Scooter - 2008 EVD 3000W
Tim:
I get the two, followed by three blinks on the LED and that makes sense since the unit slows down to 5 mph. I presume that it would stop altogether if the brake circuit was activated by the sensor from an overheated motor. What is interesting is that it eventually chugs a good bit before resuming full speed operation. Perhaps the temperature sensor in the controller is approaching threshold values as it cools off.
When I get home, the controller seems warm to the touch and the hub area is hot. I've never checked the brake lights but will. The issue for me is that it has rarely stopped completely so either the motor temperature situation is within tolerances or the sensor is not working.
I'll ponder the motor and controller cooling idea. Somehow an airflow has to be established that doesn't expose the innards to the elements.
Jeff
EVD VRLA converted to 72V
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