Another dying Vectrix

the first thing to do is to avoid overstressing the dying cells , try to not discharge the pack too much because if you do a deep discharge you will reverse some cell killing them forever.

The thing to do is to disassemble the battery pack and do a bottom balancing of the cells and if there are some cells damaged trying to find a replacement.

OR wait until the pack is dead and then call ANTISCAB ..... and enjoy a new lithium battery pack

You may only have a couple of bad cells. Of course figuring this out is not going to be easy. I suggest you take the battery out and inspect each cell. Any bulging ones are probably bad but you won't know just how bad they are until you test the cell.. If you have the software, find out if there is a single temperature sensor that reads high. That would be a good indication which bank to find the bad cell(s).
I was able to restore a battery that was only doing 12 miles to give me 35 miles quite reliably by identifying and replacing bad cells. I used a battery analyzer and repeatedly discharged each bank and identified individual cells that were bad. It was pretty involved to be honest and took weeks.

Does the battery temperature reduce to ambient when you leave the scooter standing for several days?

I ask because you could have malfunctioning temp sensors, causing the battery symbol to flash and preventing EQ charging from occurring. If some temp sensor/s read wrong temperatures, then the EQ charge might consist of very brief periods of 3A charging, with long periods of slow discharging (due to running of the cooling impellers with battery energy). The result is lack of equalisation and a further reduced SOC.

Don't give up yet, I've just tried calling and got through to Emissions Free Solutions OK and they advised that they are still servicing the Vectrix so give them a try. Really sorry to hear this has happened. I'm a fellow UK owner currently on 11,700 miles so you've made me a little concerned myself, with summer on the way!

As an aside, they also advised that Vectrix are looking to offer a lithium upgrade path and, though no pricing has been set yet, it should be around £3,000 to £3,500. Sounds expensive until you find out the the new bike price is around £9,000 for the lower end Lithium and £10,200 for the top of the range! Sorry, but that's way too high for me to even consider - and I'm an enthusiastic owner! I'd expect to pay around 6k for the low end and 7k for the top model.

Do you notice the high temperature when charging or riding or both? Temperature seems to be the main thing that kills the batteries so I'm always careful, parking in the shade where possible, not hacking everywhere and charging overnight making use of the pre-cool and also setting the fans off pre-ride, if the battery is a bit hot after a full charge from the red. Right or wrong, as I'm no techie, I've continually run the battery down to the red at least once a week and have so far had no drop in range and feel I've got a pretty well balanced battery. I always let the software finish it's charge without interruption, and the highest temperature noted has been 32 during the latter stages of an equalisation charge during the recent hot spell when I set the timer wrong and the charge started early. I always get between 35 - 40 miles per charge and usually charge every other day after about 32 miles when I'm down to the last 3 or 4 bars.

I did hope that the UKs climate might suit the Vectrix but you've now put doubts in my mind!

I'm sorry to hear that news.

I suppose it comes down to how much you want to keep your Vectrix. Unless you've got the time and aptitude to address the bad cells yourself (I know I wouldn't have either!) then it comes down to getting the Vectrix to a specialist and paying to get it fixed - which is going to cost time and money. Or you cut your losses and sell it. The last non functional Vectrix I saw sold on Ebay for just over £1k - that one had a bad charger. I'd be tempted to buy one for spares at that money!

I'd be very tempted by the Lithium upgrade myself, but is it even available yet from Vectrix? I'm not sure they're even doing business in the UK at the moment?

Stick with trying to contact Emission Free Solutions BUT phone as I didn't receive response to emails. Last chat I had to Steve Scott back in Feb, he was moving on but still keeping his oar in and passing the running about to Doug Townley. I'm sure you'll be able to get hold of him through Emissions Free Solutions and he will hopefully be able to sort you out. Don't give up just yet.

You can also ask about a Lithium upgrade pack, though no timings are yet confirmed I've now heard from two people that it will be offered.

Your description of the symptoms during riding sounded like a dodgy temp sensor, though the lower charge voltage does sound like it might be some cells. Does the temp light come on as well as the battery light? I did have a dodgy temp sensor very early on, which was replaced and has been fine since.

check it and its only 9C then within half a mile the battery light starts flashing I check the temperature again and its 25C

MMMmm I guess there's no doggy temp sensor. One of the temp boards is directly placed on a cell with reduced capacity. When the cell is emptied bebore the rest, and its voltage reverses, its internal resistance increases dramatically and starts to heat up very quickly. I suggest you shunt those damaged cells, because the battery can be good for another 3-6k miles

check it and its only 9C then within half a mile the battery light starts flashing I check the temperature again and its 25C

MMMmm I guess there's no doggy temp sensor. One of the temp boards is directly placed on a cell with reduced capacity. When the cell is emptied bebore the rest, and its voltage reverses, its internal resistance increases dramatically and starts to heat up very quickly. I suggest you shunt those damaged cells, because the battery can be good for another 3-6k miles

Hi, My Vectrix had this symptoms 2years ago. In my case it was one dead cell.
I was lucky as the tempsensor was mounted on this cell. So
the damage for the other cell due to excessive heating was minimal.

I managed to repair the battery by exchanging the module with the dead cell.
the other modules are still in duty and healthy after ~7500 Km (~4700 miles).

So it might be an option to shunt the dead cell or replace it. (If you shunt it
you loose one! of 102 cell meaning you loose about 1% of your battery-capacity.

Greetings Mike

...
...

So it might be an option to shunt the dead cell or replace it. (If you shunt it
you loose one! of 102 cell meaning you loose about 1% of your battery-capacity.

Greetings Mike

I think if you shunt a badly damaged cell you gain battery capacity, but you loose battery voltage, which equates to loosing power. There will be more available amp-hours, but the Watt-hours are reduced when compared to a good battery.

The main problem with reducing the cell number from 102 is that it increases the per-cell voltage at the end of charge and during EQ charges. That will cause significant heating and shortening of the life of the remaining cells.

Once you have dismantled the battery far enough to get to the weak or dead cells and to check the bottom layer for weak cells as well, you would be much better off by replacing the damaged cells with good, used ones. Such cells have been available for free (postage costs only) and by now there must be more used cells available for sale somewhere. The amount of extra work required to exchange a cell vs. shunting it is almost trivial, except for single bad cells in the top layer of the battery.

by now there must be more used cells available for sale somewhere.

Thanks to antiscab's videos and kits this is really true!;-)
Mik, will you consider upgrading to lithium?

by now there must be more used cells available for sale somewhere.

Thanks to antiscab's videos and kits this is really true!;-)
Mik, will you consider upgrading to lithium?

Not at this stage. I don't have time and rarely use the Vectux these days, anyway. I have a functioning battery with about 13000km on it, good for a hilly 34km at 60-80km/h or 43km going slower. I also have two replacement modules ready since over a year and have not yet put them into the battery. That would give me almost like new performance. It is just too interesting to see how much longer I can use this battery - it does not seem to have deteriorated further since I "rescued" it at about 5000km from the certain death it was facing (by installing a manual BMS capable of detecting single cell reversals).

In addition, I have another complete NiMH battery with all cells at almost 30Ah or more (from Antiscabs first Vectrix Lithium conversion). This battery I have thoroughly analysed down to cell level and it needs replacement of the weakest (but still good) cells to make it into a VERY good NiMH battery. I have these cells already, donated by AZVectrix years ago. I'm waiting for results of The Lairds simple resistor BMS, maybe I'll do some value-adding before putting it into the Vectux. And maybe, just maybe, I'll get back into designing and building my own BMS (based on comparing equal thirds of the 102 cell string to detect a single cell reversal).

So it's obvious that I have insufficient time to even do something with the two batteries I already have, which is why I will not venture into Lithium conversion at this stage. Besides, any other part of the Vectux could fail and I do not want to sink further money into it.

by now there must be more used cells available for sale somewhere.

Thanks to antiscab's videos and kits this is really true!;-)
Mik, will you consider upgrading to lithium?

I do have 4 full nimh batteries atm, and a couple more on the way.

normally I would charge $150 for a 8 or 9 cell set (single cells are too tedious), thats if I had gone through the labour of testing them

untested sets go for $50, but its the luck of the draw whether there are dead cells in the replacement.

I just checked shipping to the UK:
sea: AUS $120
air: AUS $270

Thats each set, so probably not all that economical.

Matt

My pack lasted about 8,000 before losing some cells. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I lost range and the batteries only charge up to 12 or 13 bars (from empty). However, I haven't had heat issues, as long as I unplug it when it charges to that point. If I leave it plugged in the charger tries to top off the last few bars, but the last few bars don't ever appear - what happens instead is that the bars stay stubbornly charged at 12 or 13 and the temperature just starts climbing and climbing. So, I just stop the charging (after about 2 hours) by unplugging it. I'm still riding it every day - the range is only about 20 miles now, but that's enough to get me to work.

When I asked Dana DeCosta at Vectrix (USA) about replacement batteries he offered to sell me a NiMH pack that had been removed from a VX-1 that they had converted to Li-ion. Although not brand-new, it had not been used, other than installing it in the bike. The price? $3,500 (USD). His alternative offer was a brand-new NiMH pack that had never been installed - the price? $5,000 (USD). This is for the 32AH original NiMH battery pack.

Now for the 40AH Li-ion batteries, plus the kit that antiscab is preparing - you'll pay around $3,500 (USD). ($4,000 for the 50AH). Since I'm not an electronic tech I'll also be paying another $500 (USD) to an engineer to do the actual conversion, but antiscab assured me that an amateur could do the conversion, with the detailed video and all of the necessary components that come with the kit. Compared to the prices that Vectrix is offering, I think this is a good deal - and you'll end up with a more capable bike.

Buying a new bike is another option that I've been considering for a long time. The Brammo Empulse was unveiled at the Laguna Seca motorcycle races last summer. (I was there!) I immediately put my name on the reservation list. At the time they were targeting THIS summer for production, but just recently (last week) announced a production delay of one year. This delay contributed to my decision to upgrade my Vectrix - otherwise I might have just bought the Empulse and sold the Vectrix.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Just a tip to deal with your immediate charging issues. I bought a digital countdown timer like this one currently on ebay

New in package, Jasco's model 15112 Outdoor Heavy Duty Countdown Electric Timer, item 825205.

It has 2,4,6,8 h settings. You need to tape over the photocell so it is disabled. Then just charge for two hours or set your delay to 2h and set the timer for 4. Easy enough to have iwith you all the time it's small and reliable. I use it when I like to prevent the CC charge from taking effect during the summer so that the battery does not heat up. With 2h of charge you are good for about 25miles.

DJP, update on options: I've now had a reply to an email I sent to Emission Free Solutions (UK Distributor) about servicing so have replied and pointed them to this thread. They did say that their main tech is off sick at the moment though, so that may be why you've not had any response back from Steve Scott or Doug. Have you tried contacting 'Winged Racer' on here? I know you've tried Doug before but you never know. Anyway, it might not be the end of the road so keep trying, your V may be fixed yet.

Winged Racer was Doug's nickname for this forum. Emissions Free have subsequently replied and said they will go on to this forum thread. Give them a call, I spoke to David, who was very helpful. Let us all know how you get on but bear in mind they did say their lead tech was off sick. At least you'll have contact with someone who can help though.

They also said that they have the Lithium bikes and are waiting for further news from Vectrix about Lithium upgrade packs. Methinks a trip to Rutland may be in order, though £9k and £10.2k is a helluva price still. I wish the Govt here would expand their electric grant scheme to bikes as well as cars, then I would be tempted. At the moment the only incentive is the zero road tax, which just isn't enough.

Just to add a note that DJP has been contacted by my wife advising I have been in hospital for the past week but I am now home and 'taking it easy' for another week or so and that I will be contacting him when able. The automated response is sent as a courtesy advising anyone to contact Emissions Free Solutions regarding warranty issues.

The batteries in DJP's bike have been diagnosed as having at least one bad/damaged cell and a rebuild is a possibility if some cells can be found.

Hi Doug. Good to hear from you. Hope you're feeling better and up and about soon. DJP: good luck with the repair.

When I asked Dana DeCosta at Vectrix (USA) about replacement batteries he offered to sell me a NiMH pack that had been removed from a VX-1 that they had converted to Li-ion.

Really interesting. Dana is converting vectrix from NIMH to LI? Is this a Vectrix, oficial upgrade?
Can you ask him how much for the upgrade?

The price? $3,500 (USD)

I'd never pay that price for a battery that is going to last less than 6.000-10.000 miles

Since I'm not an electronic tech I'll also be paying another $500 (USD) to an engineer to do the actual conversion, but antiscab assured me that an amateur could do the conversion, with the detailed video and all of the necessary components that come with the kit.

I'm having a close look at antiscabs videos, and I must admit he has done a great gob. The videos explain in detail all the steps of the conversion. I'm just an amateur, but after watching, I feel really capable...

Congrats JPS, another resurrected Vectrix by shunting one single cell.
One cell represents less than 1% of the battery pack (102 cells), but one single death cell can bring down the entire pack. Don't we need BMS NIMH?