I'm feeling a bit disappointed in the ZEV's performance and range, but every time I consider getting another IC bike for longer rides (or just to be able to out-drag a 125CC scooter) I remember that IC bikes put out *four times the pollution* of cars with pollution controls. The Suzuki TU250 interested me because of its catalytic converter, but it's starting to look like that is just a gimmick: the bike isn't even CARB certified! Not to mention the one I sat on had a somewhat uncomfortable riding position for those of us with bad backs...
...so I was looking into propane-powered bikes, which appear to exist only in a few hand-converted forms, and that got me a mention of a 50CC hybrid Chinese scooter that bombed, and *that* got me to thinking about what needs to be done to get real hybrids on the road. I'm in bad shape physically, but since riding season is more or less over, I thought it would be fun to spitball some ideas around. I'm thinking: take a 125CC four-stroke maxi-scooter, and add a 3500 watt front hub drive, with a lithium pack occupying the usual storage space under the seat, and a capacious cargo trunk on the back, with a real lock, for carrying things. Couldn't a standard rear hub motor, complete with disk brake, be adapted to drive the front wheel? How would the thing handle? It could use regenerative braking in front at least, and maybe a more robust alternator fitted to the IC drive to at least extend the range of the battery pack. Ideally, it would have a starter/alternator like the current "weak hybrid" cars, and the engine would shut off when not needed. Which would be better, a mode switch or a two-stage throttle that activated the hub motor first and then started the IC above a certain opening? If I were building one I'd put a catalytic converter on it, but small engine manufacturers have been so adamant in opposing this idea it might be hard to find one - until people start breaking their TU250s, anyway. ;-)
Take it away, folks! I'd especially like to hear from manufacturers and home builders one this.
I just found this with a search that I swear I'd tried before with no luck. Too small, but a start.
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Product-Concepts-Hybrid-Scooter/dp/B001UNTUJS
Here's a real hybrid scooter already on the road, a Piaggio MP3:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/634/3989/Motorcycle-Article/Piaggio-MP3-Hybrid-Scooter-Debuts.aspx
The article says it was supposed to be coming to the US, but I haven't seen it.
My own design would be a pure electric scooter similar to what I have now, but with a range extending trailer for trips. That way the gas engine could be left at home most of the time, but attached easily when a longer trip is planned.
My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.
Yes, I've seen the Piaggio, too. Kind of exotic, but interesting. I'm talking about building an affordable hybrid with already-existing components (except for the starter/alternator). Integrating the E-drive in the rear would be elegant, but would probably require a ground-up, purpose-built platform, and that means higher cost...
Check out his thread from just around the corner here:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/8780-nogas-cruiser-xs-72-mph-hill-climber
They fitted a 6kW Motor to the front of an already 6kW bike and might know more about the woes of having a driven front wheel too. But the bike isn't available for sale...
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
Have done this, but in a car: http://www.elbil.forum24.se/elbil-about1773.html
Sorry for you uneducated people who don´t read swedish ;-) but what I did was keeping the original ICE for the front drive and put 2 hubmotors in the rear. There are pictures starting from page 2-3..
You can easily switch between gas and electric.
Hi LeftieBiker,
I wish you nothing but good luck. I started out with the goal of building something more affordable and less-exotic (just like you stated in response to the MP3).
However, I think you're going to have a really tough time succeding. From a time, effort and expense point of view you'd achieve much more concrete results simply upgrading to a LiFePO4 based pack. Or if you want to spend more and go further then a LiPo pack is starting to look much more suitable for automotive work than it did a few years ago.
Now, I know this type of endeavor is not just about time and resource studies! But I fear that a hybrid scooter is a non-starter because there's basically only just enough room to do either powertrain. Trying to do both, to me, seems like a non-starter.
A parallel hybrid is a poor compromise.
A series / plug-in-hybrid is a useful implementation for certain cases.
However, I just don't see that you can do a series plug-in with any meaningful EV-only capability with just two wheels.
Again, just my opinion. Good luck if you continue to pursue this. I'll follow along with interest (and may offer helpful suggestions - but I promise no more "downers" after this initial one).
All the best,
John H.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John, I thought I made it clear that I want *you guys* to build this scooter! ;-) I can't do it, I'm just throwing out ideas.
I think you are right about limited EV-only capabilities, but then that also describes our Prius. Something that works as well as the Plug-In version of the Prius would probably be a success if it were priced under $10k.
I just got up, and will check out the links later. That car with the ICE/EV drivetrains sounds interesting. Any stats on performance?
Then you'd better start talking to Darus because I ain't gonna do it! ;-) It is a very tempting idea (and one that gets mentioned to me via various channels several times a year). And it might "almost" be doable. However, "almost" is a recipe for disappointment (and I consider the Chinese sample an "almost" implementation and the Piaggio MP3 version proof that it's too expensive to be worthwhile). Sad, but true.
OK, I should never say never - I guess once you throw the blueprints in my lap with a loud "ta da! told you it was possible" then I'd be a fool not to. You better get those blueprints done before battery tech renders your exercise obsolete. ;-)
Yes, this is the sound of a challenge being issued - all you who feel a hybrid motorcycle / motor-scooter is the way to go then go for it - please prove me wrong!
I know that you Leftie will take this in the fun spirit with which it's intended - I hope all other readers will as well.
All the best,
John H.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I think the ZEV's hub motor might be a good candidate for the E-drive part of the scooter, anyway. How about if we all come up with a good design here, one of the affluent hobbyists builds a prototype, and then you produce it? ;-)
The combination starter/alternator would be too hard and expensive to implement on an off the shelf design, I think. So what 125-175CC scooters have clean running, robust engines with tough starters and unusually high-output (or upgradable to high-output) alternators? (I'm assuming bikes don't still use generators!) The idea would be to have a built-in compact charger for the battery pack, but still have the engine and hub motor contribute to in-use partial recharging...
The reason hybrids are able to get good economy in general is mostly because they are able to use a small atkinson cycle engine with a peak efficiency of ~38% @ 35kw or so (thinking 1.5L used in my NHW10), always running at full load or not at all
Thats instead of the normal otto cycle engine which gives you 22% @ 75kw (normal 1.5L), or ~14% @ 10kw, partly loaded *all* the time.
The ability for regen and so on do improve economy some further, but nothing like the enormous gains like going from otto cycle to atkinson.
regrettably, atkinson cycle engines are hard to come by......
you could use one out of a genset, however, sustained top speed becomes a problem, due to lower power.
To put that into context, a good otto 125cc can do ~13kw (12.5Nm @ 10'000rpm) where as an atkinson cycle is more like 3.6kw (9Nm @ 4000rpm).
The next problem is working out how to do a transmission that allows full engine load irrespective of load on powertrain.
Toyota used a planetary gear set (a 3-way mechanical power split device) that allows the rpm of any 2 of them items (in this case wheel and engine) with the 3rd (an electric motor/generator).
It's a very cool design that allows them to add two motors for the same mass as a conventional transmission.
It also cost lots to produce.....
My advice, if you want to go far, use a bigger battery and more powerful charger.
Put a genset in a trailer if absolutely necessary, however, if you need to use it often, you are just better off owning two bikes (IMO).
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Really. I have an eRider 8kw and loving the speed, power and range. I thought the ZEV's scooters were going pretty good. I'm just not in a rush, I know I can't drag a 125cc but at least I can be happy I've spewed out no emissions just running to the shops to get milk and bread. Plus I'm a nerd, so I love anything electronic.
------------------------------
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller
24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS -
My reason for thinking about hybrids isn't primarily fuel economy. Small scooters already do very well with that. I'm thinking about being able to at least switch from EV to IC for more range and power, and, preferably, be able to use both drives to also increase fuel economy on shorter trips that include highway riding with ICE engaged. The bigger battery solution wouldn't increase the range more than about 50%, to maybe 50 miles, tops. And that's if you don't use all that extra power to go faster...
Didn't you comment on my video that you thought my ZEV might have more torque than your bike? If so, you haven't got a lot of torque. I get decent (but not stellar) acceleration while the pack is full or nearly so, but once it drops to maybe 75% full, the performance also drops, and "1st" becomes a PITA, cutting the top speed way down without warning, and sometimes accelerating more slowly than my XM3000. Part of the problem is that I switched from a Suzuki GS850 to the ZEV, and there just isn't any comparison in performance, nor should there be. But I also spent years riding small singles, and while the ZEV would beat the Gemini 80 I once owned, the Suzuki TC90 that followed it would smoke (literally! cough!) the 5000LA all the way to its top speed, and then go about 5MPH faster to add insult to injury. I don't want a scooter I can race, but I would like one that will keep up with highway traffic.
Me too. With a hub motor you simply need a higher voltage (or field weakening) to achieve higher speed. All the while taking into account the thermal health of everything involved. Just adding 4 LiFePO4 cells to a 72V-Setup should yield around 100km/h / 62mph with one of usual 5...8kW 13in hub motors, and another 4 should make the beast fully highway compatible.
Of course this solution is not a simple one and is also limited by space.
What would fascinate me would be a high-efficiency DC-DC conveter in the 10kW-Range to up the 72V of a 24 cell pack to 96V or so upon demand. But it would drive the cost prohibiltively high, and efficiency would also suffer. But a hybrid scooter would also not be a cheepo solution...
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
The difference between moderately expensive battery/controller upgrades and a hybrid build would be the ability to ride as far as you wanted. Even though AC outlets are much more numerous than gas stations, ironically it's much easier to run out of amps than out of gasoline. As a city scooter, my XM-3000 is quite adequate. I'd like a bike that can go for rides in the country and not afflict one with range anxiety. Gas scooters as they now exist are too dirty, and electric ones are too too slow and/or short-ranged. But still, try to keep in mind that this topic is mainly an intellectual exercise: I'm not looking to build or buy a hybrid, just in exploring what could be built with existing, non-exotic, off the shelf technology now...
A bit off-topic for this site, but does anyone have any knowledge of the Taiwanese Kymco scooters? There is a dealer not too far from me. Some models have fuel injected engines and some - even one or two with carbs, are CARB (California) emissions certified. One of the bigger ones with lots of underseat storage might be a good potential for hybrid conversion - after the two year warranty runs out. This would be more of a plug-in serial hybrid conversion: run it as an EV in the city on a front hubmotor, and fire up the 150 or 200CC engine for highway travel, with only regen braking to put charge back into the pack while moving, although with an onboard charger it could still be opportunity charged...
Kymco is a good brand.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
That's what I've read. Maybe I'll take one for a spin. I'd have to put it on a credit card, though, and it's hard to justify another bike. Still, this is the time to get a deal...
Leftiebiker,
1. Putting a hub motor on the Kymco front wheel might not be all that safe; another thread hinted that the forks weren't meant to handle the unsprung weight of a hub motor.
2. If you want more performance, talk to Zehrbach about getting his larger controller to get 60% more torque (if you have the Gen IV motor). My understanding is that you have his lowest output controller to maximize range with the lower performance lead/silicon batteries.
3. If you want more range, add this trailer with a generator: www.scootboot.com. Dump the plastic trailer enclosure and build a metal ventilated enclosure for the generator. I wonder if it is possible to make a cheap "Freddy" charger to dump max amps into the cells?
Now if just riding around town, leave the trailer at home. But add it for your country rides.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
It would have to be a fairly light hub motor, obviously, not one of the 8500 watt types. I believe I mentioned 3500 watts in the first post. A fork brace would also be needed, and maybe heavier forks. I have zero interest in pulling a trailer, especially with a generator. At that point it makes much more sense to have a used 4 stroke IC scooter for long rides. I see a 2009 Kymco 150cc for sale in Albany for $1495.
I just got back from another 50km ride on the ZEV. It was cold but I wanted to do it. The drivetrain performed admirably, but the front brake now has a violent shudder under hard braking, the clock was dead when I started, and the speedo drive in the front wheel is making noise again. My enthusiasm for two wheeled vehicles is waning at the moment...
If you start out with an inverter generator, just ditch the inverter part and wire the pack directly to the rectified output of the alternator
so yes, very easy
don't expect great economy though, as most inverter generators are built to be light not efficient.
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Make sure you get all the play out of your steering bearing. Maybe even a very slight pretension, as the bearings will set in again after some driving. But don't make it too stiff as you could damage the bearings or risk a fall due to not being able to intuitively steer to keep your balance. That alone should already solve most of the shudder.
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW