Hello good people,
Herewith another attempt to wrap up this Charging business.
Fast Charging the Vectrix.
In response to a number of suggestions, I have looked further into the possibilities of 'Fast Charging' the Vectrix.
What I have done is to produce a programme (software) which allowed me to charge the battery at 10.5 amps, up to the safe voltage limit of 144volts, with the following results.
The software was installed, the battery was discharged, two days previously, down to 128 Volts.
Ambient temperature was 9 degrees C and the battery temperature at the start of the charge was 10 degrees C.
On powering up the charger, the following resulted:--
Time=0mins Vbat=128 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=10 C Bars = 0
Time=15mins Vbat=140 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=11 C Bars = 1
Time=30mins Vbat=142 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=11 C Bars = 3
Time=45 mins Vbat=143 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=12 C Bars = 4
Time=60mins Vbat=144 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=13 C Bars = 6
Time=75Mins Vbat=144 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=14 C Bars = 8
Time=77mins Vbat=145 C.P.144 Icharge=10.5A Temp=14 C Bars = 8
Then began the tr stage with the Battery volts dropping to 143v.
The Constant current stage began five minutes later.
Result. The battery had received 13.5 ampere hours. It had gained a four degree temperature increase. The fuel gauge had gained 8 bars.
Whilst these results may look good, they show heating of the battery. Thus heat is a product of inefficiency in the electro/chemical conversion and is a 'loss' of energy. The energy lost to this heat product is also, arguably, doing damage. No, I don't know how much damage and frankly, I don't care. What I do care about is minimising that damage, if possible.
The other, less obvious, result is that the C.P. stage has terminated far short of the 70% to 80% capacity that should have gone into the battery. What is not known is how much energy has gone into the heating process and is not, in fact, available for powering the bike. I have not attempted to measure this, but I suggest that it is not an insignificant figure. I would hazard a guess that it is between 5% and 30% with the Vectrix charging profile.
If you doubt this, then measure the power fed into the charger for a full charge plus equalise. The battery only holds 3750 Watt hours. Where did the rest of that power go? Even allowing for the 86% charger efficiency and a charging voltage at the battery terminals of 143volts, mains power input should not exceed 4988Watt Hours.
There are two possible things we can do to try to correct this.
First, we can do what Vectrix did and increase the aiming voltage i.e. raise the C.P. voltage to 150volts. This would ensure that the C.P. stage filled the battery to the required capacity. It would also produce significant battery damage over the long term.
O.K. we could compromise. Let C.P. = 148 volts. BUT this would not 'fill' the battery to the desired capacity and would still produce heating and heat damage.
We could fit high powered fans to keep the battery cool. But this only gets rid of the heat produced. It does not stop the heating effects and does not prevent heat damage to the battery.
Alternatively:-
The second thing we can do is to reduce the rate of charge to that which produces very little or no heating of the battery and, hopefully, have a battery which will last the life of the vehicle / bike.
Those of you that have been following my posts will know that I have adopted the second option. You may also have tried the modified software and you may have noticed some differences in the charging behaviour and in the end result which is that of having a better behaved battery / bike.
For those people who still require a 'faster' charge for whatever reason, I am prepared to produce a 'modified software' version which will give a 10.5 amp charge current for up to one hour, terminating at 143volts. No frills, just a one hour charge at 10.5amps. It would only work on a battery which was empty and although it will do some damage, that damage would. at least, be limited. It would need to be installed for that small charge and would have to be replaced by other software in order to get back to normal charging.
I am not happy about doing this as I really don't believe that it is a good thing to do, BUT, what right do I have to tell you how to charge your battery? You are free to do as you wish as long as you accept the consequences.
My dilemma is that I do not want to assist you in doing damage to anything, but then, I seem to be the only one who can help you to achieve your objective even if I don't like your objective.
I leave you to decide what it is that you wish to do. If you want to progress this 'fast charge' idea, then send me an e-mail or personal message, and I shall be as helpful as I can.
Wishing you and your battery, Long life and Happiness,
The Laird,
Telling it like it is , as always.
Not that you need my "+1" but I find that if I charge my battery from red light for one hour, i have approx 135v, which is good enough to take me 25km. If I charge it for a further 1.5 hours THAT'S when the battery heats up a few degrees, ends up at about 143v and I only get an extra 15km...so yes....that's quite a waste of power.
I'll keep the slow charge thanks : always grateful of your exemplary and extrodinary work.
More kiwi chocs on their way for xmas mate !
Hi Aircon & ofx210p,
Aircon,
Interesting numbers. Perhaps my battery has 'high resistance cells - relatively speaking). No matter, recalling the days when my Vectrix used the old software (3001), battery heating was noticeable at around the end of the first hour of charge.
Interesting test for this is to charge the battery from the 'red light' for one hour. Note the temperature, then switch off the charger. In one hour later, check the temperature. I always found that it had risen after the charge was terminated, indicating that heat was being generated during the charge. Again, this is avoidable so why not avoid it?
In terms of a charging time comparison (I should have done this in the earlier post), the Vectrix programme followed the pattern of:-
C.P. for about 2.3 hrs (at 10 to 11.5 amps) this to 152 volts.
Tr followed for 1 hours (at 1.5 amps - 0 amps in the 3001 version)
C.C. then took over and lasted for around 2 to 3 hours at 3 amps.
Then a 'cool off' stage may operate for another hour at 1.5 amps.
Then the charge would finish (or go to equalise) TOTAL TIME = 7.3 HOURS? (MINIMUM= 6 HOURS?)
EQUALISATION could run for another hour or more in addition to the above times.
Using the modified software:-
C.P. (actually constant current of 6amps) for about 3.5 hours (to 143 volts)
tr for only 5 - 10 minutes at 1.5 amps.
C.C. at 2.0 amps for up to four hours.
The 'cool off' stage for 1 hour at 1.5 amps. TOTAL charge time = 8.5 hours maximum?
EQUALISATION COULD TAKE ANOTHER 1 HOUR (MAXIMUM).
Two big differences exist;
In the Vectrix system, the battery becomes 80% charged in about 2.5 to 3 hours AND GETS HOT sufficient to require cooling, which, if you take it off charge to ride or store, simply doesn't happen. RESULT can be,one hot battery.
In the modified system, The battery takes about 4 hours to reach 80% charge, Does not heat up. Gets ten minutes cooling at the end of charge (regardless of need) and if you ride it immediately, continues to get 'fan cooled/temperature stabilised' whilst being used.
There you have it. As they say, "You pays your money and takes your chances".
ofx210p,
Looking forward to the postman arriving. Many thanks for your supporting words and kind gestures.
.
.
Something Different.
.
Is there someone willing to start a new topic?
A new topic is required. Title - "Using the 'Modified' Charger software - Good and Bad reports".
I don't want to start this myself as it might 'smell' of self interest. BUT, I think that it would be a useful topic, partly as 'information' for anyone dubious of the idea of using this software AND partly to give me a chance to 'see' if any problems arise. It would also give us all a record of progress.
Information to report should be confined to factual data. Charging temperatures, charge mileage, battery failures/faults, battery improvements (just hoping :-)) or anything else that would be of interest.
Keep smiling folks,
The Laird.
Telling it like it is, as always.
I don't understand what advantage this would hold over simply re-installing any stock-version of the charger software when a quick "roadside-topup" is required. Is there one?
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Hi Mik,
The advantage is that the fans would run whilst using the bike following the charge and, because it would no longer charge properly you would have to re-install other software.
In my experience, having done a 'quick fix' (swapped the software to get a quick charge), there would be a psychological reluctance to return to the original. By installing a limited operation/temporary software the change back would become 'essential?'
Otherwise no there is no advantage and, of course, nothing to stop anyone reverting to the original Vectrix software any time they wish to do so.
An Observation:-
If we are not careful, we will have completed the circle. That is, we have gone from damaging fast charge software through to non-damaging slow charging software and now we appear to have a desperate need for fast charging software without damage. We are back at the start of this project unless I'm missing something because a fast charge without damage is not possible hence the modified software.
I will say it again, 'You pays your money and tales your choices'.
All the best,
The Laird.
. Telling it like it is, as always
If the charger can do it, then there might be a compromise solution that minimises damage while maximising charge speed, at least in the low-IR / medium SOC stages:
Assuming a near empty battery:
A) Start charge at minimum possible current for a few minutes if the voltage is low. This is because any cells that may have been reversing will heat up badly even when charged with 6A. Their IR is high when they are very empty.
B) Increase current to 10A until 145V are reached.
C) Hold voltage at 145V while decreasing current until minimum current has been reached.
D) EC stage with minimum current and impellers running.
If the charger cannot do a CV charge, then a modified CV pattern could be used, like:
C1) 1min of tr, then 9A until back at 145V;
C2) 1min tr, then 8A until back at 145V; etc etc.
...
...
...
C8) 1min tr, then 2A until back at 145V;
D) EC stage with minimum current and impellers running.
It might also be advisable to include stages A1), A2) etc, ramping up the charge current until the battery is in the low-IR band, probably above 20-30% SOC. This will of course slow down any "emergency topup charging" very significantly, but this is also when the worst damage occurs: Some cells reversing and heating up while crawling around looking for a power point, then starting a charge without significant pre-cooling.....heating the same damaged cells further, then immediately draining them again deeply when continuing to ride.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
If you only need the fast charge to get some charge into the battery, not get it full, why not pull back the termination voltage.
So use the CP stage to charge at ~10-11A until voltage reaches ~137v (or temp rises by more than 1 deg)
then use the CC stage to charge at 5A until voltage reaches 144v
how much charge you get during the fast charge will depend upon how many marginal cells you have in your battery.
It's interesting that your battery goes straight to 140v with 10A charge,
can you post the same 15min by 15min charge profile of your nimh battery at 5A charge?
cheers,
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Surely that's almost ideal. I ofter have to do a 30 mins plug in to make sure I get home from where I'm at.....or when I get home a quick 30 mins top up to keep going elsewhere......but after that 30 mins, usually it doesn't matter HOW long the charge takes.
Hello Folks,
We seem to have entered into another debate, which was not my intention.
Having completed the task in hand with the new modified software', it was my intention to offer a non-damaging fast charge possibility for those people who have a 'need'.
My engineering background / experience tells me that everything I design has to be both 'idiot proof', 'abuse proof' and 'vandal proof'. This is not to say that anyone out there is an idiot or a vandal BUT, experience shows that 'IF IT CAN BE BROKEN, THEN IT WILL BE'. 'IF IT CAN BE ABUSED, THEN IT WILL BE'. 'IF IT CAN BE VANDALISED, THEN IT WILL BE'. And so, everything must be designed to be 'bullit proof' / 'bomb proof'/'idiot proof' or whatever expression you use.
My suggestion for a fast charger incorporated those same principles, Indeed, all of my design work in terms of this charger software has been done with those sentiments in mind. The latest modified software is the best I can come up with. It cannot overcharge the battery even if you put the bike back on charge immediately after completing a charge. I have put in time limits, voltage limits and temperature limits at levels that should prevent damage even if the plenum fans completely fail to work. I have arrange for the fans to 'run on' in order to stabilise and equalise the cell temperatures throughout the battery whist riding as well as charging.
All of this has been done from practical experience using the two bikes available to me. I contend that the modified software designated 'ESGA6T25/30/35/40' IS THE BEST AVAILABLE.
I know that I haven't listed all of the trials and experiments, the failures, successes and the hundreds of hours I have put into this work but these things are all there behind this latest software.
I have requested that someone start a new topic (Title - "Using the 'Modified' Charger software - Good and Bad reports") with the sole intention of collecting data which I will sift through in search of 'deficiencies' / 'needs for improvement'.
I started this topic because I have a 'finished product' available to anyone who wants to try it. I wanted to finalise the task now completed. I am not looking for ideas, I have tried everything already. All I need now is the feedback from that new forum topic suggested above. From that I will consider any ways that the software might be improved and. as usual. the results will be posted on this forum.
I will continue to look at all suggestions but, unless they really are something new they may not get much response. Please do not feel that I am ungrateful but remember that I have been on this job for twelve months, I have a finished product, I have no intention of re-inventing the wheel and I am in need of some 'time off'.
Looking forward to reading the posts on that new forum topic and supplying software (free) to anyone who wants a copy.
Keep smiling,
The Laird.
Telling it like it is as always.
and good on you, too! You've done a great job and kept us all very informed. Thank you.
Actually, just one last question, how long would it take with your modified software to give the same amount of charge as, say, 30 mins of the current/standard software? I don't even know if that question can be answered.
It takes about 16 minutes to add 1/17th bar to the fuel gauge.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Sorry, but I don't understand that.
If you convert into our Lithium battery,it could be 20minutes quick charged under 150A charger
Hello Aircon,
In answer to your question, Quote "How long would it take with your modified software to give the same amount of charge as, say, 30 mins of the current/standard software?"
The modified software charges at 6 amps, the Vectrix software charges at between 10 and 11.5 amps (they use constant power for some obscure reason).
Therefore 30 minutes at 11 amps would give about 5.5 amp hour of charge, whereas the modified software would only give 3 amp hour. You would need to charge with the modified software for 55 minutes to equal the vectrix 30 minute charge.
The 'fuel gauge' bars relate to the ampere hours in the battery. Under the modified software each bar represents 1.6 ampere hours. Under the Vectrix software this MAY not be the case because, despite the battery being 30 ampere hours capacity, the software 'capacity limit' is way over 30 ampere hour. YES, they forced the battery charge in whether the battery 'liked it or not'. The reasoning is not known but I believe it to be - In order to facilitate their 'fast charge system'.
Hello CHL lithium battery,
I do appreciate your suggestion BUT I have a usable NiMH battery plus some spare cells and a desire to obtain a return on my £6000-00 plus investment. I have a few more AmpHours to squeeze out of that battery and I intend to get them.
No doubt, in due course I will convert and the final decision will be based on what is available at that time. Many thanks for your input.
Keep Smiling folks,
The Laird.
Telling it like it is, as always.
During the 6A charge stage, the fuel gauge will go up by one bar every ~ 16 minutes.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!