ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

I just skimmed this whole topic, looking for the name of the US tax rebate form I need for the EV credit, and it isn't here. Could someone familiar with it post the form name here? Thanks.

IB, if you could send me that photo or photos I'd appreciate it.

ME, I get what you're saying, but even my Lepton scooter has gone 10 years with no steering bearing adjustment. The XM-3000 is about to start its third season with no adjustment. It seems pretty likely to me that it's front crashes and defective or un-lubed parts that cause these Chinese scooters to develop bearing problems, and that makes me doubly concerned that I'll go to the effort to get at mine, only to discover that it's damaged, not just a little loose. Still, I'll try tightening it to the point just before it starts to bind...

The ZEV still sits idle in the garage while Sears.com gets around to actually mailing out the spanner I had to order from them weeks ago. Maybe I'll have it next week. I've also lined up some help - the guy who bought my Suzuki 850 the second time I sold it is good with bikes and short on cash. So because the front end problem was neglected while the bike was back at the factory, I still have no use of the thing...

Sears finally sent the spanner, which turned out be about 7" long, poorly made, and more like what you'd find in a $1 bin than a $30 Sears tool listing. (It also proved useless.) I then spent several weeks trying unsuccessfully to line up someone to help me with the job. Since it was really just another set of hands and arms I needed, I finally asked my housemate to help hold the scooter and cowl while I worked on it yesterday evening.

Once I got the cowl off again, the top of the steering tube, with the lock nut and tension nut, were visible. Not as accessible as Darus says, though, as two bundles of wires run down in front of it, on both sides. After trying and failing to find a Crescent wrench that would open far enough to get on the locknut, I ended up having to use vicegrips. Even then I had to use a rubber mallet repeatedly to get the nut loose - it seems to have been tightened with an air wrench. The spanner worked for about 1/8 of a revolution, then refused to find a grip for the next turn, so I remembered that someone here (MERoller?) had mentioned using a punch to tighten the tension nut, and after locating a small one, I found that that works fairly well. I was easily able to get at least 1/2 turn more of tension on the big nut, but then it started to really resist moving more, so I decided to have my housemate pull down on the luggage rack to get the front wheel up, while I checked for play in the bearing. I could no longer detect any, so I decided to stop there. I re-tightened the locknut, put the main cowl back on (the connections to the clock were all intact, but it's still dead), and took the scooter for a ride. Tightening the steering bearing eliminated about 90% of the problem: there is no more Death Wobble on braking, although it does still vibrate a bit, and I don't detect any wobble while riding.

So now I can at least ride the thing while I wait for more parts (clock, and a spare key blank to replace the key that Darus swears he mailed but I never got) and when I finally get around to connecting the Cycle Analyst I'll re-tighten the bearing once more, if it needs it.

I've been riding a few ICE bikes, looking for something non-excessive to use when I need to go more than 25 miles. I didn't really love any of them (ironically, the one I liked best was the Q-Link Legacy 250 scooter-motorcycle I rode this afternoon), and I expected to hate riding the ZEV after all this bullshit, but apart from the awful ergonomics of the handlebar controls (everything is too far from everything else) I actually enjoyed being on a big electric scooter again. If I could wave a magic wand and double its real-world range, I'd stop looking for another ICE bike...

I was told to tighten the bearing until it got too stiff to turn the forks, then back off. They never got tight enough to make the forks bind, so they shouldn't be overtightened. My main concern is that I had no way to see if there was grease in there - it would have been too difficult for us to remove the front end...

Are you talking about a ZEV scooter, or another brand? On the ZEV I'd have to remove the plastic handlebar cover to get that kind of access, and those are fragile and break easily.

Just when I thought it was safe to get back on the scooter... it seems the charger that was sent to me last Fall as a replacement for the OEM one that died is defective. I wasn't thrilled to get one with no voltage display, just two LEDs, and also wasn't thrilled that it looked a bit grimy, like it was just lying around the shop, but I gave it a chance. That was a mistake. The fact that it showed full charge after a couple of months of the pack just sitting there should have raised a red flag, but I just credited it to the Greensaver batteries.

The old charger had died after completely recharging the scooter - in fact, it died on the first top-off attempt I made over the Winter. The first ride I took after getting the steering improved was pretty short, and I noted no problems. I took a second ride to look at an ailing Vespa-Piaggio Fly 50, and that 35 km or so ride went fine as well. So yesterday evening, having of course recharged the bike after each ride, and gotten the Green "charged" LED (which is hard to spot from a distance, next to the brilliant red "power on" LED), I started off. As usual, "1" was a joy for the first mile and a half or so, accelerating briskly and smoothly to 35MPH or so, but then, as usual, once the pack voltage dropped a little the controller took away the joy, varying the speed apparently at random, with the max now at 28-30. So I started using "2" regularly but gently, running at about 40MPH. A few miles into the ride, I noticed that the voltmeter was dipping more than it seemed like it should; the bike was behaving fine, so I kept riding for about 15 more KMs. Then it became apparent that I was actually getting low on charge at about half the distance I should be, so I started home in Low, riding to conserve power. Long before I was home the controller started its most dangerous trick: cutting power as the needle dipped into the Red as I started moving from a stop sign or red light. No matter how gently I tried to start off, it would die, I'd often have to put my foot down, and then when I opened the throttle wide I was able to *creep* up to about 18MPH. I did get home, but I hated the experience. With no charger voltmeter I used a digital one on the charging port 5 minutes after stopping, and got 68.3 volts, with a total distance of 32 lousy KM, about a third of it under little power. I reconnected the charger and it started, but as has always been the case with this unit, the cooling fan didn't come on once during the charge, as far as I could tell. I left it on overnight, and when I checked it about 10 hours later, the green LED was on. I measured the voltage immediately and got 73.5 volts. Five minutes later it was 73.2 volts. I just read back in the posts here, and not only is 32km by far the least (52 km was the most without a partial recharge, and that gave me little or no trouble, even though the weather was cold at the time) I've gotten from a charge, but the usual charged voltage was more like 79.

It certainly looks like the "new" charger (which is marked 220 volts, but with a 120 volt plug) isn't charging anywhere near full pack voltage, probably isn't doing anything but a slow charge, and isn't doing an equalizing charge at 95 volts like the OEM charger did. Now I have to ask Darus for:

* A *new* charger, preferably with a voltmeter.

* A new clock.

* A new light for the speedometer.

Any of the techs here have any help to offer? I'll try to get a pic or two of the charger up in a day or two. I'm beginning to think that I may have a 60 volt pack charger...?

Actually, 73.2 volts seems to be the voltage I was getting at the *end* of 40-45km rides. It looks to me that the charger, which apparently worked once, is now only charging the bike up to about 75% discharged, if that...

BTW, Darus claims that this bike can be ridden down to about 66 volts. Not with my bloody controller it can't!

How would I know? I've seen them described as 40AH and as 38 AH. In any case, I think it's likely the charger, but I'm going to measure the voltage it's putting out this evening. I think if I had one or more bad batteries, the bike wouldn't perform normally. I believe I have a pack with low charge.

The Cycle Analyst will get connected when other things on the bike stop failing.

You hexed my battery pack, IB. This evening the voltage had fallen to 72.5 - near death for a rest voltage. I reconnected the charger, because 73.5 is far better than 72.5, but in any case it looks bad. I can't get a reading from the charger - the plug is so deeply recessed, with such small contacts, that even with wires inserted I can't read it. Either that or it only gives power when it senses voltage. It also reads 'charged' when it's on but not connected to anything. It does go back to 'charging' when connected to the pack - until the voltage gets to 73.5.

If anyone wants to buy this POS, you can have it for $3k with batteries, or $2500 without. (I assume I can salvage at least 4 batteries for the Lepton.) You guys seem to think it's perfectly normal to have new vehicles keep failing, and seem to love working on them. For you, this bike would be a dream. For me it's nothing but a 400lb nightmare. I bought it because I'm in poor health, and wrenching is painful for me. The gods do love a joke...

A little bit of good news: with the charger continuously connected and on, the pack voltage is *creeping* upwards. It's now up to 75.4, after about 30+ hours of charging. My best guess now is that the charger has stopped bulk charging (or is bulk charging only to 73.5), with only the float charge still working properly, and that is what is slowly recharging the pack. No hot smells from the bike or charger, and still no sign the cooling fan on the charger is running at all.

I'm looking into a nice, ultra-low mileage Suzuki GS450 ($1200), and a Honda Elite 80 four stroke scooter ($500). I'm going to ride *something* over 40MPH this Summer, dammit. I still need to try to replace the front brake caliper on the XM-3000.

The pack voltage is now up to 77.2, after nearly 40 hours on the charger. I think it is being trickle-charged by the charger. Darus doesn't think it's the charger at all - he thinks it's either loose connections in the battery wiring (after less than 200 miles of gentle riding???) or corrosion from the bike sitting in the garage all Winter. My garage is dry, with roughly 40% humidity in Winter, and none of the other vehicles in there have suffered from corrosion after *years*. He plans to send another charger this weekend, but wants me to check all the battery connections - something I don't think I can do. I should be able to check the connection block, at least. Six days of gorgeous weather forecast, and no motorcycle to ride, yet again. I may, hopefully, have that Suzuki on the road before the charger arrives...

I removed the underseat storage compartment and checked every terminal. No loose ones. I was only able to move one screw at all, and it squeaked when it moved, it was so tight. The battery terminals are completely covered with thick silicone (I'm guessing) sealant; no way to get a socket on them, but the cables are tight. There is no sign of corrosion anywhere. The voltage is still dropping too fast after charger disconnect, but it could still be equalization, I guess, because full charge hasn't yet been achieved.

I was hoping for some input from the other scooter manufacturers and techs here...

I'll try to help, but I don't know much about the ZEV "lead sleds". Too bad you don't live in Colorado. Not only do we have great EV incentives, but heck I'll help you out.

What is the charger's stated voltage and current output?

It's a pretty generic charger, although it looks like maybe a copy of a Kelley. It just lists pack voltage, and I believe an 8 amp output.

Measure and post here the individual voltage of all six batteries and the total pack voltage without the charger connected and with the charger connected after a couple of hours (want to make sure your measurement isn't missing a battery or that one isn't bad.) You might have to stick the probe though that protective covering on the posts to reach the terminals.

I would guess that if you have poor connections either it wouldn't be charging or some of the connections would be hot to the touch.

Before I try to take the engine apart, I think I'd rather check the tire pressure. IOW, try a new charger and see if that solves the problem. What I did do was connect a KillOWatt meter to the charger. It is drawing only 0.6 amps when on. That is in line with my theory about just the float charge circuit working properly. Again, no hot smell from bike or charger, and it takes the charger many hours to even get fairly warm. And I have yet to witness the cooling fan run, even once.

Since you have a CA, I would go to the thrift store/computer shop and get an old computer power cord (at least the charging port on my bike is that type of connector, find one that matches the output of your charger (computer power extension cable) or modify it to, in the middle of this cord open the insulation so you can get to the pos & neg DC wires. Now cut the cord wires there and connect you CA-SA to these DC wires between the charger and your charging port (this assumes you still have an unmodified CA-SA). The CA will now display the charger's voltage output, current output, and AH going into the battery. See section 3.2 in the CA manual for connection diagram, but instead of connecting it between the battery and motor controller as shown in the manual, you will be connecting between charger and charging port on the bike.

With that data, we should be able to help.

IBS

Actually, you'd need a computer power supply female port, not the male end of a cord - that's a regular AC plug, and won't fit. I know you love the CA, and that would be handy info, but I'm still going to try swapping chargers first.

I don't know if Darus has sent a new charger yet or not, but today I got the 1982 Suzuki GS450 on the road, and rode it home. And then around for a while, just enjoying it. I'll be riding that and the XM over the next few gloriously warm, dry days. I'm aware of all the unusual factors in my case, but after my eScooter experiences post-Lepton, and after reading here about all the delightful ways these things can fail, and how often, I have come to realize that even if the American public were willing to use electric scooters, there is not yet a viable selection of truly useful, long-lived scooters available for them. The American embrace of and support for Chinese manufacturing over the last two decades has forced the scooter manufacturers to use too many substandard Chinese parts that are flooding the world market. It's a shame - I never thought I'd go even halfway back to ICE bikes...

The pack voltage seems to have stabilized at 78.2-78.3, two days after disconnecting the charger. I wish I remembered if this was the past 'charged but not just-charged' voltage. Anyone know if this is right for a 72 volt pack at 99% or so percent? Now I reassemble the under-seat compartment, and wait for the new charger. The weather here is beautiful, and except for a sore leg, I've greatly enjoyed riding the Suzuki (26 miles) and the XM-3000 (about 35 miles).

Thanks (I guess!). I'll connect the new charger when it arrives (it was shipped today) and see if it adds more charge. I put the under-seat compartment back together this morning, hoping I'd be riding again soon. We'll see.

Thanks, JDH, that makes me feel a bit better. I reconnected the old (actually 2nd) charger this evening, so if the charger comes tomorrow (unlikely but not impossible) I'll just ride the bike and then see what happens with the new (3rd) charger. Those batteries appear to be stacked three deep, and as far as I know they are the same ones that got tossed around like the ball in a child's rattle when the bike was first shipped to me. So while I'm hoping it's just the charger, I'm also dreading that one of the batteries is damaged...