Fuel Cell Vectrix, rides again?

Thanks for the great input! I went to: http://www.thehydrogencompany.com/Fuel-Cell-Systems/20W---1kW-Systems/23/H-500-PEM-FC-System-(500W).htm

Very interesting setup. Although, I can get a 1Kw H2 unit from a good company in China for about the same price as the 500W (I'm under NDA so I can't give details). But Horizon unit is more compact.

I looked up the Parker-Balston H2 generator, but I didn't see one that was $750 both a gas generator and power generator in one. Do you have a link?
Scotter

PS. Here a link the Vectrix brochure: http://visforvoltage.org/sites/default/files/manuals/vectrixfuelcellhybrid.pdf

Choices are H2 or reformed methanol using Protonex NGen 500W -- website doesn't show much

Thanks Chris! I'd love to know more and see that link. I think I read the Vectrix didn't sell any units. I have a service manual and I see some indicators on the dashboard for fuel cell (little gas-pump symbols!!!) which is what prompted me. I happen to have a spare dashboard, I might play with it a little.

Very interesting! They do not show prices. I wonder if it's no longer available? Can't find it using the website navigation, but your cut-n-paste trick worked. The other portable systems, the Greenhub Power, on the website include AC inverters, which we don't need.

The Asia Pacific Fuel Cell website only shows the HyPower-250 and 1800 watt, but not the Greenhub Power products... odd. Whatever, we don't need AC for Vectrix... ;-)

I'll check around, but it looks very intriguing -- one thing I starting to understand is that these things are expensive and the refuel times are quite long. 4 to 24 hours to fill a bottle in a safe medium. Which ironically can be, guess what, NiMH! ! Hmm.... maybe the old Vectrix batteries you take out can be converted to store H2! moh-Hahahahaha!
I digress
Scotter

I'm building a fuel cell to pump life back into a dead Vectrix... cross your fingers... If you see or hear a big loud ka-boom 20 miles east of Seattle you will know I was partially successful.

Sounds good. The cheap variac (freddy charger, or "3rd world charger") works well and can do the entire pack at one time.

Back to fuel cells --> I'm on the trail of developing a methanol fuel cell that will recharge your scooter while driving or resting. Probably around 1kw -- Vectrix was going to offer a 500W unit a long time ago.
The cool part is that I think I can offer these units for less than $1K -- the fuel (Methanol + water) will not catch on fire, in fact you can put out fires with it. You should even be able to run the unit with a mix of Vodka and water!

I have 4 Vectrix scooters that I'll use to experiment with. I may need a few more. Stay tuned.

Scotter

Hi Randy
I hadn't heard of eFoy before now. The details of the design I'm working on are somewhat TBD, but if we pull it off it will be a great solution, besides I'm under NDA with some of the material suppliers. But I can tell you that fuel cells (of this kind) product .7V per stack-layer of the proton exchange membrane -- put a enough stacks together and you can get whatever voltage you want. Vectrix is a 125V system (under nominal load). So just under 200 layers will provide the required voltage. Regulate & buffered, and put in the correct protection circuits and it can charge the batteries directly and supply cruise power.

To quote Forrest Gump; "that's all I have to say about that". With any luck I'll have something I can demo this year for scooters. On that note, I've got two more scooters coming next week, so I'll have 4 Vectrix VX-1 scooters to play with

--Scotter

Yes, this thread started out talking about model VX-FCe. According to the original announcements, and maybe on the brochure it was going to be offered in H2 or Methanol (with a reformer) type fuel cells. There's a link to the brochure on this thread somewhere.

I've reviewed the service manual, there is a fuel cell signal wire going to the dashboard. It appears to be used to turn on a gasoline-pump indicator (heaven forbid!) on the LCD display, which I presume indicate the fuel level in the cell. I have no idea if the current firmware (or any prior version) supports a fuel cell. I have a spare dashboard, I don't know if it works or not... I'll see if I can test it on one of my VX-1s to see how you turn on the FC indicators.

Anyway, I'm building a DMFC (not a reformer type) -- DMFC = Direct Methanol Fuel Cell, meaning a lot less components. The fuel is safe too, you can use it to put out fires! It's 95% water (no the water isn't used a fuel and doesn't go away). Hoping to bring one of my dead scooters back to life. Now if I can just find a inexpensive source for super-capacitors...

--Scotter

I've done a lot of research on this... not an expert (yet), but I do not think I want to use H2 fuel cells. The metal-halide filled tanks are best for H2 because of the reduced risk of explosion. But it can take 24+ hours to fill a decent sized tank filed with metal-halides. I'm more more interested in the alcohol fuel cells. A good DMFC/MEFC (direct methanol / ethanol) using5% solution of alcohol and 95% deionized water looks like a very safe way to go. You can actually use the fuel to put out fires! Of course hauling 50liters of fuel+water mix would be difficult, to get 2.5liters of fuel for power seems excessive!

I'm planning to make my own fuel cell to power my VX-1 scooters using methanol. I'm proving out a bench-top-prototype in the coming weeks, but so far it looks really good. It's a 1Kw unit. There are some very complex issues to overcome however. Happily I've found the parts and components needed to make the fuel cell work. If it works I might be persuaded to build some units for people willing to give it a try. It would be an on-board charging station and should help extend the VX-1 range by a factor of 2 or more. Cost of components <$300 retail (so far).

Stay tuned. If anyone is interested in this, then please PM me.

Scotter

Nobody wants H2, it's still too dangerous.
Yes, the methanol was announced in that brochure as fuel for this generator.

My curiosity is about:

- how the generator is re-filled?
- methanol is liquid (isn't it?), how much it costs? how is easy to find it?
- it is the methanolo hazardous by inhalation?

Hi Marco,
Great questions!
Yeah, DMFC (direct methanol fuel cell) units are available. Although I've noticed some manufactures have dropped them for commercial use.

Methanol (wood alcohol) is a liquid, same as ethanol (grain alcohol) and Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) and several others.

There are two types of methanol systems. Reformer and Direct. Reformer contains an apparatus that breaks down the alcohol into H2 then uses a standard PEM type H2 cell. The Direct method uses alcohol (virtually any type) mixed with water -- at a ratio of 5% alcohol, 95% water, typically. No reformer is needed. Usually the fuel is premixed. But it's possible to recycle the water a few times, so you could have methanol only fuel tank and a water tank. Reformer has a lot worse energy conversion then Direct.

The DMFC or DEFC (ethanol) units have a very good energy conversion rate of over 80%, some are up to 90% (+/-) based on a number of factors. Car engines are typically 20% to 30% energy conversion. So a little fuel goes a long way.

Methanol is readily available as race-car supplies shops, or at your local hardware or pain stores in the form of denatured alcohol. In the USA denatured alcohol at the larger hardware stores is about $7USD per quart. Which is terribly expensive and low quality. The race suppliers sell 55 gallon drums for about the same price but it is extremely high quality (which means very little water) -- the quality doesn't matter a lot because it's mixed with water anyway. I have seen commercial methanol drums for $4USD per gallon in 55 gallon drums.
You can distill your own from any dry biomass in a still for under $2USD per gallon. But the fuel is readily available. And like a said a little goes a long ways. But at 5% solution, you have to carry a lot of volume, so a water recycling method is best for scooter applications.

There are some alcohols that are much higher energy density than methanol or ethanol, such as isopropyl-alcohol, which I believe is nearly double of specific energy (closer to gasoline), but it's a lot more expensive, but also readily available in 70% solution at any pharmacy or chemical supply. Note, as I understand it, concentrated windshield wiper fluid is almost 100% methanol, only colored (although it would clog up the fuel cell after a while).

All alcohols are hazardous when inhaling the vapors -- prolonged exposure is bad. A whiff now and then shouldn't hurt a healthy person.

If methanol becomes popular, it's very easy to increase distribution.

Scotter

Nobody wants H2, it's still too dangerous.
Yes, the methanol was announced in that brochure as fuel for this generator.

My curiosity is about:

- how the generator is re-filled?
- methanol is liquid (isn't it?), how much it costs? how is easy to find it?
- it is the methanolo hazardous by inhalation?

Hi Marco,
Great questions!
Yeah, DMFC (direct methanol fuel cell) units are available. Although I've noticed some manufactures have dropped them for commercial use.

Methanol (wood alcohol) is a liquid, same as ethanol (grain alcohol) and Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) and several others.

There are two types of methanol systems. Reformer and Direct. Reformer contains an apparatus that breaks down the alcohol into H2 then uses a standard PEM type H2 cell. The Direct method uses alcohol (virtually any type) mixed with water -- at a ratio of 5% alcohol, 95% water, typically. No reformer is needed. Usually the fuel is premixed. But it's possible to recycle the water a few times, so you could have methanol only fuel tank and a water tank. Reformer has a lot worse energy conversion then Direct.

The DMFC or DEFC (ethanol) units have a very good energy conversion rate of over 80%, some are up to 90% (+/-) based on a number of factors. Car engines are typically 20% to 30% energy conversion. So a little fuel goes a long way.

Methanol is readily available as race-car supplies shops, or at your local hardware or pain stores in the form of denatured alcohol. In the USA denatured alcohol at the larger hardware stores is about $7USD per quart. Which is terribly expensive and low quality. The race suppliers sell 55 gallon drums for about the same price but it is extremely high quality (which means very little water) -- the quality doesn't matter a lot because it's mixed with water anyway. I have seen commercial methanol drums for $4USD per gallon in 55 gallon drums.
You can distill your own from any dry biomass in a still for under $2USD per gallon. But the fuel is readily available. And like a said a little goes a long ways. But at 5% solution, you have to carry a lot of volume, so a water recycling method is best for scooter applications.

There are some alcohols that are much higher energy density than methanol or ethanol, such as isopropyl-alcohol, which I believe is nearly double of specific energy (closer to gasoline), but it's a lot more expensive, but also readily available in 70% solution at any pharmacy or chemical supply. Note, as I understand it, concentrated windshield wiper fluid is almost 100% methanol, only colored (although it would clog up the fuel cell after a while).

All alcohols are hazardous when inhaling the vapors -- prolonged exposure is bad. A whiff now and then shouldn't hurt a healthy person.

If methanol becomes popular, it's very easy to increase distribution.

Scotter

Sorry I made a few mistakes. The 55 gallon drum race fuel is $7USD per gallon (not quart), and I've see the commerical stuff for $4USD/gallon. "PAINT" stores sell denatured alcohol, which is 90%+ ethanol and 5% methanol. If you drink it you will very sick, which is a deterrent.