Paul's 90Ah conversion

SOrry to hear about the accident :( Good luck with the next project!

Here are some photos of the damage from the accident. I have cancelled the registration and will probably sell it as a wreck without the batteries.

Paul - I feel your pain. I crashed my vectrix into a car about two months ago and cannot get it going again. It was a reasonably high energy smash, and interestingly the bike and I bounced off the car which came out of it looking much worse than my Vectrix. However on riding it home, the throttle would suddenly go full on, and at other times to full stop - and adjusting the magnet in the handlebar doesn't seem to fix this problem. When I hold the lever in, the speedo needle will sit at 43 as it should - then after a while shoot off all over the place randomly - clearly this is happening when I ride. It can't be ridden safely, but has minimal cosmetic damage.

With my bike sitting idle and turned off, the battery discharges in 2-3 weeks, then won't fully charge without me using the software to tell it the battery is empty first.

I do have one final hope of getting it going. I have two 'spare' bikes - I will see if I can remove the handlebars/ throttle sensor assembly complete from a spare bike and swap it onto mine - I have been slow to do this because I am heartbroken at losing my ride, and haven't been able to face the job yet.

There was a vectrix lithium for sale in Melbourne, the nearest city - but I missed it - it seems to have sold already. My fallback is to buy a zero DS - but they are really dear here in Australia.

Anyhow, so sorry to hear about your bike, but I hope you are OK.

Hi Brutus,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. Accidents are one of the hazards of riding a scooter. My leg is healing and I will be walking on it soon. The silver Vectrix that you saw for sale in Melbourne was mine and I have taken it off the market. It will be my next scooter. I had taken the battery out of it and sold it to a customer. It has been sitting in my garage without a battery for a few months now as I cannot make batteries fast enough to keep up with demand. I will swap the battery out of the red scooter and fit to this spare scooter with a few modifications.
With your scooter it makes sense that there is an intermittent fault in the throttle module / wiring. I have not seen this fault before so I am not sure.
With the charging, the battery will go flat due to self discharge. The charger / battery gauge won’t pick this up as it measures discharge current and not pack voltage. I have a freddy charger that has a transformer in it and is safe. It charges at 0.8 amps and has crocodile clips for connection to the Vectrix battery. It could be used to bring to life a flat battery or to keep your battery charged. Use once a week for 12 hours. I would lend it to you if you paid the postage.

I will see if I can remove the handlebars/ throttle sensor assembly complete from a spare bike and swap it onto mine

Hi Brutus. I'm glad you're fine.
If you have a working twist grip, then it is a very easy procedure.

Keep in mind: Avoid dismantling the working twist grip. NEVER dismantle the twist grip unless necessary. You,ll have to move the entire handlebar with the working twist grip mounted on it.

1- Dismantle handlebar plastics
2- release brake levers from the handlebar
3- Unplug the connector of the twist grip cable and the one of the left switch cable. If the connectors are hidden underneath the plastic cover of the Vectrix, you'll need to dismantle the front part of the vectrix to unplug them.
4- Release handlebar calipers, and move the handlebar to the other Vectrix
5- When remounting everything, it is better you place the connectors attached to the the handlebar. Check the correct place to avoid interference with the handlebar plastic cover.
Hope tit helps

Don't remove the throttle from the handlebar? That sounds foreboding! What happens? I am guessing it throws off the central coast point, or is it something more treacherous?! I am use to the Magura variety, which only have one potentiometer to deal with.

Yesterday I did a final test of the 90 Amp/Hr LiCo NiMH battery that was installed 3 years ago. It is the first Vectrix to be fitted with this battery. The scooter has travelled 35,000 Km. I will be removing the battery to use in my next scooter. When the battery was installed I did a discharge / internal resistance check. This gives me a benchmark for the new battery.

The load tester I made is a piece of speaker cable 2 meters long and with 2 clip leads at one end. The other end is joined. Test current at 4.00 volts is 50 amps. I measured the voltage drop on each battery as the load tester was clipped on to its terminals.

3 years later I do the same test.

The results of the test is the average internal resistance of each battery has risen from 2.07 to 2.39 milli ohms. I have not noticed any reduction of range during this time. 3 months ago I made a trip to Geelong and back of 210 Km including 80 Km of freeway driving.
The rise of internal resistance indicates some ageing of the batteries which I would expect. This effects maximum acceleration and range at high speeds. For example the internal resistance of the pack is 35 x 2.39 milli ohms = 84 milli ohms. At full acceleration the Vectrix draws upto 210 amps. Voltage drop is V=IR or
210 x 0.084 = 17.6 volts. So the pack voltage would fall from 140 volts to 122.4 during acceleration peak current. This is better than the NIMH pack but still an example of how battery internal resistance effects acceleration.
Also there are no individual batteries that have a 10% or more higher reading than the average. This shows that I am not about to have 1 battery fail prematurely. The battery pack could be expected to last some time.
When a battery pack is reaching end of life the signs are poor acceleration and reduced range, especially at high speed.

was there much of a temperature difference between when you did the test now (May 2014) and when you tested the batteries back in April 2011?
The increase in internal resistance is small

Can you do a capacity test?

The temperature of the discharge test on the May 2014 test was 19 C. With the April 2011 test I did not record the temperature. I did the test early afternoon out the front of the garage because of better lighting than inside. It would have been a fine day so 19 - 23 C. The increase in ESR is due to calender aging plus battery use. I usually charge to 4.00 volts and only charge to 4.20 when I need the range.
I own a disharge tester http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FDY10-S-battery-lithium-battery-capacity-tester-discharge-instrument-for-1-20V-/171150933683?pt=US_Ba...
I used it a few times but don't bother with it now. Once Li-Ion batteries are too old to use in a vehicle I use them for energy storage in solar systems. The capacity lose is small but the rise in internal resistance makes them unsuitable for vehicles.

Once Li-Ion batteries are too old to use in a vehicle I use them for energy storage in solar systems. The capacity lose is small but the rise in internal resistance makes them unsuitable for vehicles.

In all honesty: This second life usage only makes sense when internal resistance rise is still rather low, as otherweise even small currents may cause a voltage drop beyond static energy storage requirements too. A battery that immediately sags to pathetic voltage levels with just a few Amps discharge will not be of any value anymore. And vice versa only smallest trickle charging will still work.

My approach is a little different: I use my battery heating to mitigate the rise in internal resistance, as the LiFePo4 chemistry in my bike reacts with reduced internal resistance in leaps and bounds with even just a a 5K (°C) temperature rise. In the first winter 15°C kept them happy enough, in the second winter I had to up that to 20°C, and last winter (or now in general) 25°C is the aim to still be able to use my aging battery in my vehicle. And when the temperature contingent is used up the battery will be ready for recycling - no second life possible nor necessary :-)

Last night I charged 3 battery blocks to 4.20 volts. I joined them in series and connected them to the FDY10 Li-Ion discharge tester. The voltage of 3 batteries is needed to be able to set a 9 amp discharge current. The unit I bought came with a 1 ohm 200 watt discharge resistor and sets its current by microprocessor controlled pulse width modulation. I set the controller to 9 amps and discharge cut off voltage 3.20 volts. The test result is 92 amp / Hr. The reason for the higher reading is that each battery block has 45 CGR1850CG cells in parallel. These are rated by Panasonic at 2.25 amp/Hr each plus the NiMH cells are 3 amp/Hr. In my builds I have rated each cell at 2.0 amp/Hr. (45x2.25)+3=104.25 amp/Hr. So manufacturers ratings are 104 amp/Hr.
I prefer the Equivalent series resistance (ESR) test as it is fast to do. I can quickly identify a weak battery in a battery pack.

Hi Brutus,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. Accidents are one of the hazards of riding a scooter. My leg is healing and I will be walking on it soon. The silver Vectrix that you saw for sale in Melbourne was mine and I have taken it off the market. It will be my next scooter. I had taken the battery out of it and sold it to a customer. It has been sitting in my garage without a battery for a few months now as I cannot make batteries fast enough to keep up with demand. I will swap the battery out of the red scooter and fit to this spare scooter with a few modifications.
With your scooter it makes sense that there is an intermittent fault in the throttle module / wiring. I have not seen this fault before so I am not sure.
With the charging, the battery will go flat due to self discharge. The charger / battery gauge won’t pick this up as it measures discharge current and not pack voltage. I have a freddy charger that has a transformer in it and is safe. It charges at 0.8 amps and has crocodile clips for connection to the Vectrix battery. It could be used to bring to life a flat battery or to keep your battery charged. Use once a week for 12 hours. I would lend it to you if you paid the postage.

Hi Paul.
I didn't realise that was you when I posted a reply to you.
I am very grateful for your advice. I was very hesitant to undertake this job, but your instructions gave me the confidence to tackle it. The night before last I removed the handlebar assembly from my spares bike and my main bike, last night I swapped the undamaged one onto my bike - tonight I went for a test ride. IT WORKS! Thanks so much.

I have to admit I am now very timid in riding - I have had throttle problems twice now, with the throttle locking on full - the first time, no exaggeration, I was on a 10 degree downgrade with a school crossing just in front of me, the lollipop man out on the road, and the crossing full of little kids - I hit the kill switch and both brakes, and just stopped in time. I think I'll need to ride it for a bit to get my confidence again. Tonight, I rode miles behind the car in front, drawing the ire of cars behind me.

To the chap who wrote wanting some parts of my bike - I'm sorry I can't find the message - but I'm not wanting to part with any at present.

Hi Brutus,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. Accidents are one of the hazards of riding a scooter. My leg is healing and I will be walking on it soon. The silver Vectrix that you saw for sale in Melbourne was mine and I have taken it off the market. It will be my next scooter. I had taken the battery out of it and sold it to a customer. It has been sitting in my garage without a battery for a few months now as I cannot make batteries fast enough to keep up with demand. I will swap the battery out of the red scooter and fit to this spare scooter with a few modifications.
With your scooter it makes sense that there is an intermittent fault in the throttle module / wiring. I have not seen this fault before so I am not sure.
With the charging, the battery will go flat due to self discharge. The charger / battery gauge won’t pick this up as it measures discharge current and not pack voltage. I have a freddy charger that has a transformer in it and is safe. It charges at 0.8 amps and has crocodile clips for connection to the Vectrix battery. It could be used to bring to life a flat battery or to keep your battery charged. Use once a week for 12 hours. I would lend it to you if you paid the postage.

Hi Paul.
I didn't realise that was you when I posted a reply to you.
I am very grateful for your advice. I was very hesitant to undertake this job, but your instructions gave me the confidence to tackle it. The night before last I removed the handlebar assembly from my spares bike and my main bike, last night I swapped the undamaged one onto my bike - tonight I went for a test ride. IT WORKS! Thanks so much.

I have to admit I am now very timid in riding - I have had throttle problems twice now, with the throttle locking on full - the first time, no exaggeration, I was on a 10 degree downgrade with a school crossing just in front of me, the lollipop man out on the road, and the crossing full of little kids - I hit the kill switch and both brakes, and just stopped in time. I think I'll need to ride it for a bit to get my confidence again. Tonight, I rode miles behind the car in front, drawing the ire of cars behind me.

To the chap who wrote wanting some parts of my bike - I'm sorry I can't find the message - but I'm not wanting to part with any at present.