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It's very likely we are seeing the END of the DIY ("Do It Yourself") era.
The mid drive motor using two freewheels is a complete game changer.
We can now seriously talk about using 750 watt (and less) sized motors that run power efficiently through the conventional bicycle drivetrain.
My experience had been (since 2006) that when it came to the technical challenge of producing what I wanted in the end I was forced into compromises because I simply didn't have the machines necessary to do it. You can only go so far as a DIY mechanic / builder using a drill, hammer and grinder before you realize it's not enough to go where you want to go.
In part it was this "common inadequacy" that drove so many into overpowered hub motors. They simply had no real path to get performance over a wide range of conditions without resorting to brute force. This then "degenerated" into the freakish bicycle / motorcycle machines where power rose up to 10 hp and above.
So it does have the feeling of a "fresh start".
Life is like that... things appear very bleak only to become sunny again.
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I'm not sure what you mean about a 'double freewheel'...
Are you talking about a single piece with 2 freewheeling sprockets? Or just having freewheels on each end of a chain drive?
I use these $70 HD freewheels for both my gas and electric mid mount shifting drives.
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=173&osCsid=7il4bvtko24i4b5j9a8bo0stj2
The 3-piece pedal crank arm set with the special right pedal pedal that screws into the dual sprocket freewheel are about $20 and the result is a simple mid drive setup with freewheeling pedals and a freewheeling motor sprocket.
As for the EuroEbike electrics I can see the logic in designing a bike specifically to tuck everything in nice but at least here in Phoenix, Arizona USA completely impractical to spend several thousand dollars for an E-bicycle that not only will be hard and expensive to repair can never be anything else, when you can take a perfectly good mountain bicycle and mid-mount an electric system that is easy to service or even completely remove for around $1000.
Granted this topic is about e-bike racing and design, I am just a practical guy that builds all kinds of different motor assisted bicycles and simple fact it they are bicycles, not motorcycles, stuff wears out and if it's not cheap and easy to just replace a part or just move the electric system to new bike you end with an expensive useless pile of metal you can't afford to fix.
In the picture you posted there are "double freewheels".
One freewheel is attached at the center of the front bicycle sprocket.
The second freewheel is built into the motors sprocket.
Generally speaking the reliability of the design is less than excellent, but some are able to get it to work for a while if they are easy on it. The problem with the older design is that the torque of the motor wants to twist the front sprocket and the freewheel is forced to absorb that stress. The freewheels tend to fail.
However, I'm still viewing things from a perspective from a long time ago so it's possible these new freewheels have worked out all the reliability problems they used to have. (so they might be fine now)
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These new mid motor designs pull the "double freewheels" inside into a more compact design. I don't know what the reliability is actually like (because I have not tested them personally) but just comparing designs it looks to be a giant leap forward. I hope they used computer simulations to really perfect it. (one assumes everything is run through computer simulations these days)
Again... the problem for DIY builders in the past was that we simply couldn't build this on our own. The new mid drives require 21st century resources when the DIY builder is living in the 20th century.
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For the sake of EBRR ("Electric Bicycle Road Racing") on Go Kart tracks the availability of a practical powerplant that is mid motor in design opens up the potential for standardization.
The problem that killed the concept before was that no one could agree what an ebike was.
It was like herding cats, everyone wanted to do their own thing.
Mid drives that are all in the 750 watt range by design means that you are one step closer to a "firm" power input limit that I think is a precondition for ebike racing to come into existence.
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It's very likely that mountain ebike racing would catch on before EBRR. And this will likely take place in mountain locations, so there is a significant geographic bias to that possible sport. If you aren't in Austria or Colorado the appeal of a mountain ebike declines significantly.
EBRR has potential only because Go Kart tracks are common all around the world. (on flat land)
Most of humanity lives in places where the land is flat.
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The Bafang mid drive is a couple hundred dollars, not thousands.
There will be some "market forces" that will drive where it all goes, but basically you can now buy whatever level of quality you want. Back in 2006 there were no options, you had to do everything on your own.
The necessity to be a DIY builder is over... but we aren't to "Walmart cheap" yet either. Eventually you will see mid drive ebikes at Walmart and then we know things have reached the masses.
(some people hate this truth)
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http://www.electricbike.com/currie-2014/
Awesome bike !!!
This is where it's all going and I'm happy with the mid drive focus.
They are still sticking to "non-fairing" UCI designs, but eventually I would expect they would more closely resemble motorcycle road racers as actual Go Kart track racing became popular. But then again, Cycling can be a very conservative group, so maybe we never see fairings. It's hard to predict.
The price is crazy, but so are high quality carbon fiber regular road bikes. It's likely this is going in the direction of high tech and high price.
Remember, you can still get a Bafang cheap. ;)
Yamaha is looking into the mid drives too.
This really feels like the beginning of a new era for ebikes.
I hope we can finally put to rest the over 750 watt motors.
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These new mid drives look "ready to race" stock.
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A little review...
The (US) Federal Ebike Law is somewhat "generic" and specifies:
Must Have Pedals
750 Watts Maximum Power Output
Maximum Power Assisted Speed 20 Mph
...this "template" can see deviations based on localized laws, but it's more or less accepted to be the most "generic" definition for ebikes.
The mid drive motor guarantees pedals and implements the 750 watt rules, but the 20 mph power assistance limit gets seriously messed up.
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Actually this was double posted, but I'll continue...
The way the law is written you are not limited to 20 mph overall, but the motor has to cut out once you pass 20 mph. So on a mid drive with multi-speed gearing you might be able (aerodynamically) to get close to 40 mph on flat land but the motor isn't allowed past 20 mph. So when a mid drive is sold the motor needs to be RESTRICTED to 20 mph by some external means. This was done with motorcycles for similiar reasons.
Now once someone buys the ebike they are perfectly capable of "derestricting" the motor and the moment you do that you place yourself into the role of "dangerous criminal" (joke) in the eyes of the law.
Valjean from Les Miserables:
For ebike racing it's assumed you "derestrict" the motor to allow speeds to rise to whatever the track and aerodynamic forces permit. One also expects some kind of trackside new restriction on motor power input to make sure everyone is getting a fair opportunity. I've suggested 1000 watts input as the rule since on output it closely matches the law. This prevents people from creating excessively overpowered ebikes and keeps the stock motors in place.
On a "derestricted" mid drive and on a steep downhill you can get some crazy speeds. I know I've done 60 mph downhill on just around 750 watts. If the same ebike was "restricted" so as to cut out at 20 mph I'd guess I might have been able to coast or pedal to 45 mph down that same steep hill, but not 60 mph. So the law is intended to prevent that extra 15 mph of top speed... which actually makes sense... 60 mph can kill you.
The mid drive is a great direction for ebikes. Hopefully we will see "restricted" products that can be "derestricted" easily so that people who feel they need the extra speed can get it without too much bother. The law enforcement will always vary by the inclinations of the region where you live. Some places will always have rigid enforcement and others will be relaxed. If you don't like the culture of your area, then move to a place where you support the culture. Freedom means moving. You can also attempt to vote to change your local culture, but often that is futile.
As for racing ebikes on Go Kart tracks, well, that's always going to be legal.
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http://m.gngebike.com
This is kind of interesting. It's a really cheap ($200) mid drive solution using the older brushed motor technology. Dollar for dollar you get better performance with brushed verses brushless, but you do lose about 5% - 10% in efficiency because of the brush drag. You will get people that know nothing about motors hyping up the brushless as being "wonderful" but in reality most loss is due to copper loss and both motors have similiar traits in that area. At this price level you will save enough on the motor to be able to buy the battery. Most brushless mid drives start in the $400 price point right now.
The quality of the parts is low, but for the budget minded beginner who wants to be part of what will likely be the future of ebikes this is a very attractive low entry point. Just realize you are getting what you pay for.
So mid drive is not just for the rich.
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As of this fall, the Consumer Products Safety Commission has modified it's definition of an electric assist, pedalec bicycle to allow power up to 28 mph, with pedaling. Without pedaling, power must cut out at 20 mph, as in the past. Several of the big players are going with this interpretation to see what happens. This only affects what can be sold legally in the US. As always, state and local laws still apply.
warren
Yeah, I noticed that there are some companies pushing the speeds up a little higher as long as people are pedaling.
750 watts can achieve 35-40 mph if the ebike is aerodynamic.
Will be fun to watch it all play out.
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In my opinion they would have been better off just allowing 250 watts and no regulation on speed. That way everyone just uses a mid drive at 250 watts and things move forward without problems.
But can anyone remember a time when any government got it right?
750 watts was because of GW Bush and was probably overly generous. But he was an avid mountain biker and so he probably wanted the higher power level because in Midland Texas the soil is probably soft and you need a lot of power to get through it.
On a road bike 250 watts "on top" of pedal power is plenty.
So America's "excessive" power seems tied to the dirt in Texas. ;)
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But speaking of "excessive" power this Audi ebike is interesting. The power is off into "moped land", but the reason I post about it is that the motor is centered on the bottom bracket rather than being an externally adapted mid drive unit.
50 mph top speed... so this further perpetuates the problem.
http://ebikesolutions.com/audis-50-mph-e-bike/
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Another example of a mid drive which is built into the bottom bracket.
I like the simplicity of the design overall.
https://m.ricardo.ch/auction/718652344/
However, the "shell" built into the frame to attach the motor is probably excessively heavy. An improvement would be to look at motorcycles that use the motor as a "stressed member" of the overall frame. Back in the early days of motorcycles the frames completely circled the motor, but now the motor is actually used to create stiffness. It requires well thought out motor mounts. In this case they obviously worried that loose motor mounts would create a flexible frame. (so the "shell" is there to ensure bottom bracket rigidity)
To fix this the motor needs to have been cast so that it's motor mounts are shaped to maximize rigidity when mounting. Odds are the motor begins as a "generic item". So this is still a first generation design, but I do like where it's going.
They could save a little weight by just drilling out some of the less critical areas. (but that's an added expense and would allow dirt to get it)
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Shimano is advancing it's "STEPS" mid drive.
Notice the attention to detail about motor mounts. This should lead to reduced flexibility at the bottom bracket. (assuming everything is done right)
Many seem to get a false interpretation about "multi-speed gearing" with this product. In fact they are talking about the use of their multi-speed rear hub with some sort of electronic synchronization scheme.
But it WOULD be a nice product if everything were in one package:
Double freewheels
Electric motor
Multi-speed gearing
...but this product doesn't achieve that.
Someday we hope someone will. :)
For all of us DIY builders our ability to contribute to this is non-existent. We are just watching what others with better resources are doing. We are finally seeing real high tech and that means the backyard mechanic is unable to do what the "big boys" can. This signifies a level of maturity for ebikes that didn't exist before.
The ebike is "growing up"... and far more quickly than I expected.
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LiveForPhysics is still distorting the very notion of what an ebike might be.
Deathbike "Version 7.0" is going 110 mph over the quarter mile.
Just think how much quicker he could have been if he could pedal faster !!!
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If there ever becomes a racing format for ebikes it still seems to me that power limits will be required. I remember years ago writing about how far it would be possible to push the power up on an ebike and LiveForPhysics has definitely pushed it to absurdity. (which seems to have been his intention from the beginning)
I was always thinking of Electric Bicycle Road Racing as a kids sport that would prepare young talent before they would graduate upward to faster classes, or possibly a fitness contest like cycling.
110 mph is not for kids or athletes.
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...I'm going to have to update that to 110 mph.
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Try pedaling up ~6km of 7-10% gradients, with little to no roadside to speak of, as part of your normal commute. 250Watts + human power is not sufficient, even with gearing. 500Watts of my first bike/scooter just did it when it preformed optimally, I ended up walking it home several times, once because the motor's power connector melted, before the controller burnt itself out. My next attempt, was a pedal through mid-drive at the 250nominal-450peak which was only pedal assist all the time, no off switch. This one failed because of a mechanical problem stemming from the bicycle drive train not being able to withstand the power of me + 250-450Watts going through it. My current bike appears to is essentially what I was planning to make, and is adequate to the task. This is an externally mounted motor on a bike rack style frame over the rear wheel where the batteries are kept in pannier style detachable cases. The motor delivers power through a separate drive train. Many would consider it ugly, I see something that works and will give me few problems that I cannot fix myself.
As to a top speed restriction (32km/h in B.C. Canada), when you need your motor is when you are going slower, like up hill. If you are traveling downhill or on relatively flat ground no motor power is needed, save it for when it is needed.
To put this into perspective, most blenders operate at 1500Watts, and are not fettered by limited power supply.
With a hammer, a chisle can be made. With a hammer and chistle, files can be made. With hammer, chisle, and file anything else can be made.
Kaishan k500w retired, Merida TEV500 on indefinite sabbatical, currently using a Currie E-zip Trailz.
double post
With a hammer, a chisle can be made. With a hammer and chistle, files can be made. With hammer, chisle, and file anything else can be made.
Kaishan k500w retired, Merida TEV500 on indefinite sabbatical, currently using a Currie E-zip Trailz.
I still think 250 watts is adequate.
Some background:
I'm currently 53 years old and ride a regular unmotorized bicycle from 30-50 miles a day and usually 5 days a week. (as weather permits)
My old ebike got me to just shy of 10,000 miles, so I'm aware of the potentials of both.
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Unless your health is bad a regular bicycle is a pretty amazing machine. In fact, since it improves your health while operating it you get an extra bonus with it.
LiveForPhysics has clearly pushed the notion of ebike to it's logical extreme of absurdity. In a way this helps because it makes it so comical that no one can seriously propose ebike racing (with pedals) using such a thing. It's called "Deathbike" for a reason. It's somewhat insane.
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Who are the movers and shakers now?
Most all the cool stuff is coming from Germany as was seen at the recent Eurobike show. The future seems to be focused more on higher quality, but lower powered (250 watts - 500 watts) machines with a strong showing of mid drives.
I'd like to see a John Vranish style gear bearing mid drive with a small high rpm motor. In my mind that's the endpoint... very small, very lightweight, seemlessly blended into the conventional bicycle.
Since the beginnings of ebikes people have desired more and more and more power and at some point it reaches beyond reality into insanity.
LiveForPhysics is the "Mad Man" who actually gives more credibility to the sane.
The 250 watt ebike will be popular... when used as part of a mid drive it's good.
On my regular bicycle I'm typically putting out less than 250 watts as a human and it gets me out on the roads and trails just fine.
The internet celebrates the narcissistic, but businesses must make money, so in the "real world" of mundane laws and practical necessities the low powered ebike will do just fine.
And about the reliability issues, that's just a question of proper design.
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Apologies if this ends up being rude, but I have to more adequately describe the situation that dictates my requirements.
How level is your commute? Gently rolling hills present no problem to most designs. However, what is adequate for most people appears to be is inadequate for me, I had to find that out the expensive way. Many stretches of local road are walk-ups even to avid cyclists, some ICE vehicles have trouble with them. I, for a short time, tried cycling into town with a non-powered bicycle; how it worked out was that I would walk it uphill and use it as a coaster to save time going downhill and use up my momentum and what pedaling I could contribute on the bottom of the next incline. This ended as it was more possible and time-economical for me to hitch a ride in as I walked to town, a journey of approximately 1.5 hours in 2.5hours out at a determined pace. Trails are designed and intended for bicycles, measure them, I doubt that many of them are much more than 7%grad for any more than a few feet at a time.
The qualification of little to no roadside is also important, If I'm too slow it could be me vs. a logging truck vs. a cliff face (if I'm lucky). If I'm not lucky, their wake could toss me off a cliff (the never be found type) or suck me under their wheels, many will be patient if I am traveling at half the reasonable speed limit (50-60km/hr, half this) and pass me on a straight stretch where they can occupy some of the opposing lane, or where there is a bulge off the road side for me to gain space (neither occur often).
Admittedly, I am somewhat upset that both of my previous e-bikes were purported to be “good” hill climbers and failed. I couldn't find any hard statistical or engineering data, like that available for most ICE vehicles. All I had to go on was here say, that it tackled that legendary hill in whatever city occasionally. If I had hard or even firm information, I could have skipped one or both of the failures and not be stuck with what is, at this moment, expensive garbage.
I admit that there is usefulness in not having more than you can use, less weight, less wasted power, possibly less cost, etc... . But there needs to be the “Land Rover” or “Jeep” option for those who actually need it. On the e-bike racing angle, perhaps have 3 broad power classes, 250, 500, and 750 watt (“low-mid-high” ?) to cover all jurisdictions and situations. There may actually be definite niches that different power classes fall into. A unified e-bike racing authority/organization could also be a good body of data for study and to base choices from. I agree that the power behind that “Deathbike” is excessive, ICBC would classify it as a full powered motorcycle and all that that entails, thus making it moot as an e-bike. Good luck.
With a hammer, a chisle can be made. With a hammer and chistle, files can be made. With hammer, chisle, and file anything else can be made.
Kaishan k500w retired, Merida TEV500 on indefinite sabbatical, currently using a Currie E-zip Trailz.
Last year I lived back in the Reno Nevada area, but before deciding on that I looked into the possibility of living just on the other side of the mountain range separating the Lake Tahoe area from the flat deserts of Nevada. My thinking was that I'd get the desert climate most of the time, but if I wanted to get to Tahoe all I had to do was climb once each way.
As I investigated the road I realized it was dangerous as heck and the idea of riding anything on it was just a really bad idea unless you could flow with traffic which in this case was 55 mph uphill and 70 mph downhill.
Sometimes the answer is: "Don't Ride There".
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I've been over on Red Pill a lot lately (just reading):
http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/
...and one of the constant themes is how both men and women "hamster" (rationalize) a truth that really is just an emotion out if control. I've seen this since day one in the ebike world. People just seem to want to turn what begins as mild "electric assistance" into a full on moped class electric motorcycle. It's emotions driving the brain to strange behavior. We are all "hamsters" to some degree. "Deathbike" goes beyond simple hamstering and into true insanity, but it all began as an emotion. The electric motorcycle developers are more grounded in reality because they aren't pretending to be bicycles.
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Anyway, my advice is to simply look at whether the roads you have are any good for what you think you want to do. If you are honest with yourself you might decide to ride somewhere else. (it doesn't sound fun)
Ebikes are a solution to many problems, but they can't turn a dangerous road into a "safe" one.
Kind of the advice you expect from a guy named "safe" right?
I'm not saying you need to be a beta-wimp type, but definitely you need to pick your battles.
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I still want to plug John Vranish and the gear bearing drive. In a very small space you can get 50-to-1 reduction very easily. This NEEDS to be done on ebikes.
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nice model and technology
http://www.primesigns.co.nz/portfolio/vehicle-signage/
See the new Gogoro "smartscooter" now launched, in Taipei?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogoro
Nice. It goes 95KPH without a jackshaft (which was problematic with the Ego Cycle 2 from egovehicles.com). On Youtube, you'll see it outracing everything on the road, even cars and trucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4U_7wIMPWQ
However, imo, it has several potential fatal flaws:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qax2Evwk5Xg
1) The Gates belt drive is not enclosed (just like the flawed Ego-2 electric scooter). Apparently, the Gogoro designer didn't look into the Swiss, Italian, Japanese, and Taiwan gas scooters, all of which have very reliable transmissions because they fully-enclose their belt drives.
2) At 95KPH, those skinny Gogoro tires will slide too easily, be vulnerable to cross-winds, and uncomfortable on bad roads
3) The Gogoro scooter tires are too small for 95KPH... I hope they are tubeless. If the Gogoro tires are not tubeless, I would not own a Gogoro, even for free.
The key issue, for "early adopters" of the Gogoro electric scooter is whether the BMS is as good as Tesla's. Even the Nissan Leaf had battery problems. My own experience with BMS's on LIFEPO4 (lithium battery packs) electric scooters is not positive --- haven't had one yet that did everything successfully, like the Tesla electric car's BMS.
Just my 2 cents: The Gogoro is said to cost 10X more (US$4100+$30/month) than the cheapest gas scooter (US$500) in Taiwan. So, then, why only a 2 year warranty? My Kymco 50cc Liquid-Cooled Super 9 had almost no maintenance since 2007. Also, with the Gogoro, the prices does **not** include the cost of the battery!!
The Gogoro is said to be aimed at 18-26 years olds ... the ones who don't know the trials and travails that we, in this forum, have gone through.
Rob, what on earth does the Gogoro electric scooter have to do with "Electric Bicycle Road Racing Theory"???
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
It looks to me that the laws for ebikes will be going towards PAS systems.
Since that eliminates the throttle is makes the whole aerodynamic roadracer theme impossible (you can't pedal when in a tuck) so the whole idea seems to be out of the question.
There may have been a brief period back in 2006 or so where a power limited, but throttle controlled ebike racing scene could have developed, but the "monster ebikes" (deathbike, etc) convinced the sane people that it was not wanted.
Deathbike did a quarter mile in 10 something seconds and 100+ mph.
The politicians must have seen the youtube videos and sided with the ebike makers.
It's over.
Oh... thanks Luke... cool technology, but it killed the sport.
(it wasn't just you but you are my scapegoat on this one)
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This thread is very helpful! I wasn't aware that there's a battery capacity limit besides a motor power limit. So this kit should be a legal one: http://www.enoeco.com/product-item/enoeco-e-bike-conversion-kit-t1/#
Keep calm and whizz on.
California just passed a new law for ebikes that heavily pushes the PAS type of setup.
You can now get a type of ebike that is legally powered up to 28 mph but you must use PAS.
Throttle based ebikes are still limited to 20 mph and it looks like over time all throttles will be phased out.
There are other rules too, so check into it.
At this point it looks like ebike racing would be more like the regular cycling variety which covers very long distances. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see racing on Go Kart tracks too.
My EBRR concept seems unworkable because it entirely depends on using a throttle.
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Beautiful bike a dream
I have returned to California and basically no one cares what I am doing so this project still lives on.
In a way it's surreal it is still alive and even prospering. Good Stuff. (lot's of improvements)
That ebike looks extremely aesthetic, but as you say, legal wise it is going to be a pain in the ass, i think something needs ot be done, especially in the european union where power is limited to 250w
My problem is solved thanks to all. I am going to share this thread https://visforvoltage.org/forum/9490-electric-bicycle-road-racing-theory-results with my friends and brother who faced the same problem.
Thanks again
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