ZEV Motorcycles & Scooters

Thanks for the response, which I somehow missed initially. I'm pretty sure I've finally located the problem with the shudder, and since so many of our bikes have similar parts it may apply to others as well. After my last ride - which was also with my Sister on the back - I put the bike away without looking at it, as it was late. Yesterday evening I looked at the front rotor again, and got a surprise: there is a big groove worn into the inner edge of it, one that wasn't there before. It looks like one of the pistons in the caliper wasn't working properly, and the pads were being pushed unevenly on braking. The inside (towards the axle) of the pads must have worn out on that last ride, and the rotor got metal to metal contact with the pad backing. I'm corresponding with Darus about it, and hope to finally, finally, get the bike riding safely...

This Summer hadn't been too bad, ZEV-wise. The shudder was still there but the bike behaved fine otherwise, and I got in several decent rides. The other day, though, I applied the letters "ELECTRIC" to the little rear fender, and when I went riding afterwards, the bike died while stopped. After opening the throttle several times it started to move, but with that horrible shuddering, growling pattern that usually means controller problems. I turned around and rode home of course, noting that the bike improved immensely as I went faster. When I arrived home the bike smelled like hot wiring, but not burned wiring. I've been in contact with Darus, but this remains a mystery. Here is what I know so far:

* The main breaker seems ok. Tight, works, not hot or burned.

* The cables that plug into the controller seem nice and tight.

* The problem is worst when the bike starts to move, and is inversely proportional to speed: as I speed up, it seems to go away.

* Load seems unrelated. Only speed seems to directly correlate to the malfunction.

Any of you motor/controller Gurus know what's going on here?

Would a broken hall sensor be masked at speed? The bike seems smooth above about 20MPH.

Darus is of the opinion it's a marginal connection somewhere in the drive wiring. I can barely bend over or squat down and my arms and hands hurt, so I'm hoping to narrow it down, as I can't just take it all apart.

Worthless site ate my earlier reply, even though I left the browser open for half an hour as it "waited".

Would a broken hall sensor in the motor be masked at higher speeds? The bike seems smooth over 20MPH. Darus thinks it's a bad connection, and suggests I look at all the connections in the motor wiring. I can barely bend over or hold a wrench, so I'd like to try to narrow it down...

Hello, IB! No, the motor shouldn't have been hot. I had just left home, climbed a small, fairly gentle hill, ridden over a bridge, and was waiting, on level pavement, for the light to change. The bike *did* smell hot and 'sick' when I got home, but it wasn't hot when I stopped at the light. So while the problem appears to have caused heating (from mis-phasing in the motor?) I don't see how heat could have caused the problem.

Let's see how hard it is to get this reply posted...

How am I doing with the ZEV? It's sitting in the garage with less than 2000 miles on it, barely working, with a dangerously unstable front end. I had been hoping that my pension would cover payments on a *real* electric motorcycle, but no such luck. Darus Z, after promising me a new front wheel bearing last Summer, never sent it - all I get is junk email touting his latest Chinese scooters. I can honestly say that I've gotten so little enjoyment from this POS scooter that it would have been better if I'd stayed with ICE bikes, or just put new batteries in the Lepton scooter. (Now THAT was a well-built machine.) Most of the damage is probably from shipping, both the original damage that was only partially repaired, and additional damage from the scooter being shipped back to me on a terrible home-built pallet that forced the trucking company to stack it on a second pallet. The front end was torques to the side so badly that I think it's the main reason for the wobble.

Bottom line: if you want to ride an electric motorcycle, as opposed to trying continually to get a Chinese scooter fixed, to no avail, don't buy a ZEV. IB loves his, but I think he just got lucky.

I've been rereading this topic, reliving the good and (mostly) bad times I've had with the ZEV 5000LA, and trying to find out what the wattage of the new motor that was installed is, exactly. 8000 watts? 8500? I can't remember. The reason is that I'm putting the bike up for sale, as my health has only gotten worse, and I can just barely ride a motorcycle, but can't work on even a bicycle anymore. I topped off the charge and took the ZEV for a ride this evening, and the shuddering drive is still there: I took a ten minute ride, getting it up to 50MPH and then bringing it home, and can add this info:

* The motor didn't get hot. it barely got warm.

* The controller *did* get hot. Not hot enough to smell of burning components, but way too hot for an easy 10 minute ride in 76F weather.

* The motor cable from the rear wheel to the inside of the bike got warm. Not hot, though.

* The behavior is very consistent: the bike doesn't want to start moving, but with a gentle shove forward it starts off, sounding like a two-stroke scooter with a hole in the muffler, and shuddering. The shuddering smooths out and the noise reduces a lot - but doesn't vanish - at about 30MPH. The power output is probably a bit lower, but it may be the same - I haven't ridden the thing in a long time.

The is where it stands. It has, IIRC, 2743km on the odometer, no significant remaining body damage, and the lead-silicone batteries seem to still be in excellent shape. The original 5kw motor was, according to Darus of ZEV (actually he pretty much IS ZEV) replaced with a gen 4 motor of either 8 or 8.5kw. The controller however, was not replaced, so the bike is only slightly faster than it was originally, topping off at maybe 63MPH in High. It will cruise at 55MPH and had a range, when last tested, of slightly over 30 miles in mixed riding. The hands-off-wobble and braking hudder in the front end is the same, sometimes really bad and sometimes (like this evening) not bad at all, although I have no idea what the variable is here.

Since I can't work on the bike myself anymore, and since there is literally no one in my area who will work on it, I want to sell it. This bike *could*, if the issue is with the motor cabling or the controller (I still think it's an atypical controller failure, maybe one MOSFET burned and the rest ok) and not with the motor, be a bargain. Also, even though the Greensaver batteries have given me ZERO problems over the last four (!) years, the bike should be a great candidate for a lithium - maybe even a Leaf cell - conversion. I'm offering it for sale in two 'versions': the entire bike and charger (and original top case) for $1999. OR, if you want to convert it and don't want the batteries, I'll sell it for $1750 if you remove the batteries and leave them with me. You can pick it up here in Mechanicville NY, or if you hire a shipper to do *all* of the work, I'll cooperate with them. Given the prices of new 70+MPH electric bikes (this bike should be capable of that with a controller of the correct size) I think that's fair. I'll be offering it for sale locally, and maybe on Ebay, but I'm starting here. You folks certainly know the history of this bike! I'm not going to pretend it doesn't need work, and I strongly suggest you not buy it unless you already have lots of experience with electric motorscooters, but it has been ridden gently, was always garaged, and I treat batteries better than anybody else you know, guaranteed. I have literally never killed or worn out an EV battery through my own actions in nearly 15 years. Maybe what this bike needs is a new owner with better luck than mine.

Yup, whatever it is it's atypical. My bet is still on the controller, but I also wouldn't bet against it being a Chinese wiring harness issue. Would a bad hall sensor produce enough off-phase EMF to get the controller hot so quickly?

Since there is a huge difference between a bad wire inside the body or along the swingarm and a bad sensor in the motor, I have to see if I can check the three input signals from the motor to the controller, I guess. Frankly I'd rather just sell the bike at this point. Up until now I've told myself 'Well, the front end is Crap, and the secondary electricals are Chinese Junk, but at least the drive is reliable.' If it does turn out to have a bad hubmotor I'll have been thoroughly screwed by "ZEV."

There is a spare plug in there (you can see it in the lower left of the image when you click on it for the large version), but I seem to recall it having two wires instead of three, and the colors being wrong. I will double-check that tomorrow! I am familiar with the fact that many motors have two sets of sensors, but Darus never mentioned this bike having them, including when I asked about this problem.

It's amazing what you (meaning me) can miss unless told to look for it. I think it's right here, in plain sight:

The wiring for the second plug isn't color-coded the same, so I never looked closely. Shall I try swapping plugs?

If, knowing this, the buyer still has the passion of an "early adopter", then all is well even when things go badly - the buyer feels good just being part of the "development process" and "helping to shake out bugs", etc... Even if the purchase winds up being a total loss, it's regarded as having been a worthwhile "investment in the future". If you have this attitude and money to burn, then go ahead and enjoy yourself. If not, better remain on the ZEV sidelines and buy a Zero DS or something (and even then, you're still taking a risk - just not as big as you take with outfits like ZEV).

I have two issues with this. First, it isn't a case of choosing between two bikes in the same price range. I had about $3500 on hand, and could spend up to $4k. Thus I needed a new bike, but not astronomically priced, and with a good warranty and US support. On paper at least, the ZEV seemed to fit well. Second, going by what I see posted, the ZEVs *do* seem to have both lower initial and major defect rates than the Zeros, at least in the drive systems. There seem to be quite a few Zero owners waiting for parts to be shipped to them for their dead bikes, to install themselves. (I rode two Zeros last year and loved them, but at triple the price I'd expect a bike that was reliable for at least the first couple of years!)

My problem wasn't that I got a defective bike: it was that my bike was half-destroyed in shipping, I wasn't offered a refund, and the "complete rebuild" of the bike was anything but. The front wheel should have been replaced along with the rear, but was instead rebalanced and the speedo drive repaired. I don't think the instrument lights ever worked. The front had a very slight shimmy when I sent the bike back, and it just got worse and worse, while Darus told me it wasn't shaking at all when he rode it, and to just tighten the steering bearings. Twice. Now the front wheel bearing is showing some early signs of failure as well, and I suspect the forks are misaligned - if not from the original "in-truck crash" then from the way the bike was shipped back to me, on a nonstandard pallet, with the front end torqued so hard to the side that the throttle came apart from the strap pressure. I requested a new front wheel last year, and that was the last I heard from him, except for huge email ads for new bikes. I don't think my experience was typical, but it's cases like mine that show how manufacturers deal with problem bikes. You can decide for yourselves how ZEV rates in that area.

They both come from the same sheath! And some of the colors match, while others are close - as if they used colors they had extra wire in stock in for the backup sensors. I'll try it this evening or tomorrow. Fingers crossed!

I have little hope of finding a good buyer locally. If the second plug is a backup sensor set, and that cures it, I'll advertise it at a price I'd be comfortable getting (probably $2499 with both cargo boxes and spare instrument cluster) but I'll keep riding it as well. The Suzuki I got to be able to ride safely acquired a squealing rear brake as soon as I adjusted the chain.