Which commuter scooter should I buy?

I don't have any real world experience with those but I am curious to see what other people say. Even if I have already ordered and received confirmation yesterday on my R-20 (EVTAmerica Retro Z-20).

Something else to think about maybe:
One thing I noticed when doing my original research and looking at some of those is that some of them can only go 28/30 mph. I plan on using mine mostly for commuting too and I plan on staying off higher speed roads but I felt better knowing I had some more power and speed available for maneuvering if necessary. This is my first electric and my first two-wheeled vehicle (that's not a bike) so I don't have a lot of experience but it seemed like it'd be nice and probably safer.

1) All the XM-2000 owners here have purchased theirs from ArcticFox at www.basestationzero.com. I believe that John in Ann Arbor started up the Revolution EV site, but I didn't know it was ready yet. That's a good price, and if it's him, he has a blue one personally, so he can attest to its performance.

2) The "shipping problems" are just out of box issues that we all experienced. Sometimes there would be a chipped handlebar grip, or a rubbed decal on the side. These crates come all the way from China and aren't opened by the dealer. You get what they packed in China. That being said, they are ridable right out of the box. They're charged and ready to go--you just need to affix the mirrors and the handcovers with the toolkit provided.

You then send an email to X-Treme listing what problem piece you need sent to you, attach a picture via email, and they'll send the replacement out.

Other issues afterward are things like greasing the kickstands and brake levers, or squelching brake squeal, minor stuff like that.

3) I got a quote from my State Farm agent for $4 a month. But that was barebones coverage, and only offered to customers with other insurance through State Farm. I ended up getting super duper coverage for $23 a month. It's more than I wanted to spend, but at least I'm covered to the hilt.

4) The DMV has no clue about these types of scooters apparently. Here in CA, I ended up sending the registration in the mail with a $17 check. I registered mine as a moped, not a motorcycle. X-Treme is supposed to be sending out MSO papers and replacement VIN tags for all the scooters, so if you wanted to register it as a motorcycle, you could.

If you did have to somehow "prove" the speed to somebody, you could just neglect to hit the High Gear button. It'd be in low gear and you be limited to about 25 MPH. Other ways they could tell the speed might be to assess a capability to the 2000 Watt motor. That really doesn't work in all cases, because the 3000 Watt Zapino is limited to 30 MPH on the controller. So, I think you could argue the point if you wanted. It's much easier to register it as a moped.

5) No lender will write a loan for this (other than your Mother-In-Law). It's really just an online purchase, like ordering a food processor. Maybe if it actually came from a brick and mortar store they'd do it. But not for an online purchase.

kringle777
Red XM-2000
Moss Green "Charger" ebike
Sacramento, CA

` :?
Off hand I would say Revolution EV, LLC , they do show a phone number you can call, which is very rare. They also seem to be a legal entity in he State of MI but the Revolution EV name does not show up so you may want to check into that more.

Seems they may be located in Ann Arbor, MI. so even with the $250 pre-delivery inspection, unless you can pick it up in MI.

domain: HTVLLC.COM
created: 22-Feb-2007
last-changed: 23-Feb-2007
registration-expiration: 22-Feb-2008

nserver: ns57.1and1.com 74.208.2.9
nserver: ns58.1and1.com 74.208.3.8

status: CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname: John
registrant-lastname: Harding
registrant-street1: 2550 Powell Avenue
registrant-pcode: 48104
registrant-state: MI
registrant-city: Ann Arbor
registrant-ccode: US
registrant-phone: +1.7346498356
registrant-email: jdharding [at] comcast.net

BTW, there is a John Harding who is also a Member of our V is for Voltage Community and seems like a very decent person.

I also saw a Dealer that for a extra $5.00 offered shipping insurance

Peace Out,
Gman

What is your vision for the future our growing community?

` 8)
My recommendation would be Revolution EV, LLC or John Harding. He is very out front, showing a name and a phone number. I have no idea who Articfox is, where he lives, or how to personally contact him if I had a problem or a emergency situation.
Don't get me wrong, they both seem like very honest people, but I would personally feel better doing business with someone I knew more about it adds a lot to there accountability.

Peace Out,
Gman

What is your vision for the future our growing community?

See, the problem there is you don't know either of the people. Chris (aka ArcticFox) has sold every one of our XM-2000's to us, including John's to him. He's a reputable dealer who has been interested in our problems and has been responsive to our questions. John has a favorable opinion of him as well. You, GMan, seem to have a problem with ArcticFox. I don't know why, but you do. You've never dealt with him personally, or purchased a product from him, but you have a problem with him. And please don't deny that--it's patently obvious.

Now John, on the other hand, offers personal experience with the XM-2000. He owns one, rides it every day, and offers firsthand perspective on it. That is indeed a plus. But Larry (crunchfam) lives in Oregon, and will not likely be driving to Michigan to pick his up. So he'd be getting it delivered either way--from China.

So, ArcticFox has more experience selling them, but John in Ann Arbor has more experience riding them. Let Larry make the call on that one.

kringle777
Red XM-2000
Moss Green "Charger" ebike
Sacramento, CA

`
All off topic post will be moved to a new Get the Cheapy XM's while you can, there wont be anymore after this. ASAP.
Any new off topic post will also be unpublished, so plese do not post and additional off topic here, they can go in the new Get the Cheapy XM's while you can, there wont be anymore after this. as soon as it's ready.

Stleride
Moderator Team Captain

Moderators are dedicated volunteer V Team members who help keep your V Forums running smoothly and provide Forum Support.

Ok, actually you may be right for some of them. EVT put Long batteries in their scooters which to my understanding were junk. In any case, I agree that no matter what batteries you have, you need to properly care for them. Put battery balancers in, or charge the batteries individually, or expect the batteries to die. Its a simple fact that if you don't you are abusing the batteries. The scooters stock are designed to abuse the batteries because the manufacturers don't want to add the expense of battery balancing.

crunchfam,
from the information available, it looks like the Z20 (or R20) is the most powerful e-scooter soon to be on the market. Its supposed to come with a 90 amp controller, and the motor is rated for 2500 watts continuous. But we won't know really how it performs in comparison to say the XM-2000 until someone gets one and can provide some real testing data. Right now all anyone can do is study the information provided by EVTA and speculate. For what its worth, EVT has produced reliable products.

The EVT 4000e which to my understanding was very similar to the EVT 168 just with a different body. Although the US version was sent with a controller that limited the power, from the reviews I've read it was a decent well built product. It did have a brush motor which would require brush replacements after a few thousand miles. The Z20 has a brushless motor so this shouldn't be a problem. The main issue was the batteries. EVT used Long batteries which were junk from all that I've heard of them. If EVTA is putting Long batteries in the Z20 than I wouldn't count on them lasting long.

Aside from the batteries, I think your main issue will be the range. The advertised 30-45 miles is not very realistic. 20 miles may be tough depending on the speed you ride and the conditions for the Z20. I'd expect the scooter might get 20 miles if you keep the speed lower than 30 mph, but there are a lot of other factors such as your weight that will affect the range.

Aside from all that, from what I've heard the Oxygen Lepton was a very well built scooter. If you don't need the higher speed of the Z20 you may still be able to withdraw your deposit and get the Lepton instead, but it is limited to 28 mph.

Am I correct in thinking that the Z-20 is not made by the same folks that made the EVT 4000e and 168? EVTA is the importer of the Z-20. I believe the Z-20 is a closer cousin to the XM than the EVT 4000e and EVT 168.

The higher power of the Z-20 might just end up hurting your batteries more quickly. It will likely give you more acceleration and only a few mph on top speed (compared with a 50 Amp XM). XM has a 42mph top speed as measured with GPS (the speedo indicates 45mph) - and easily achieves 50mph (indicates) on a downhill. These real world figures (posted by owners on this site) compare favorably with the latest posts on the EVTA site for the Z-20 (see this post)

As of yet there is still no firm availability date for the Z-20. I'm really looking forward to when it arrives and we can get some customer based feedback on this board.

With both upgraded with good quality LiFe batteries and a good BMS it will be really interesting to compare real world tests between the XM & Z-20. I'm working on the assumption that the AGMs in the Z-20 will be of lower quality and that most folks won't balance them so a LiFe upgrade will make equal sense for both bikes. In such a comparison I expect that the Z-20 will perform only slightly better and will cost approx. $900 more ($500 increased sales price and $400 more expensive shipping cost). I expect the build quality to be equivalent. I'm hoping to be able to get a LiFe upgrade for around $1000 - so if you bought an XM now and budget for a LiFe battery replacement in the spring you could have your cake and eat it, right now.

Does anyone have a date yet for Z-20 delivery?

While I don't have any experience comparing these scooters side to side. I do know that the XM2000 controller is a maximum of 45 to 50 amps while the Z-20's is 90 amps. So I know from my experience upgrading my e-max, that only the Z-20 would be usable in my hilly town.

Does anyone have a date yet for Z-20 delivery?

Heres from the EVTA deposit agreement form:

If for some unforeseen reason, EVTAMERICA is unable to make delivery of the
customer’s Z-20 by December 31, 2007, then EVTAMERICA will refund the full
deposit amount to the customer upon request.

I expect the customers who payed a deposit will probably get theirs before Dec 31. But I can't be certain. Anytime between now and Dec 31, but I would bet it'll be Nov before any are delivered.

The latest word I have from Fernando on availability is that they will be to the depots the first week of Nov at the earliest and the second week in Nov at the latest. Once they hit the depots they are supposed to be shipped within 48 hours. This is of course barring any crazy unforseen happenings. I am impressed with the responsiveness and the candid demeanor that EVTA has. I hope that I will be as impressed with the bike. I'll tell you though, with all Z-20 bashing that happens on this site I expect that I will be pleased with the bike now that I have had several weeks to lower my expectations.

Don cristobal,

As someone who at this point has messed with hub motor scooters a bit at this point, I can assure you that most of the criticism is coming from people who don't understand the technical issues behind what they are talking about. While no one knows what the fit/finish and workmanship of the Z-20 will be (it's from China after all), it's purported specifications are superior to that particular scooter the critics seem to be so invested in.

Don Cristobal,
What PJD is trying to tell you graciously is that the E-Max owners out there are jealous that the purported specifications of the Z-20 will be superior to theirs. This is understandable.

I will warn you, however, that my XM-2000 got just as bashed by all those who had never seen one in person before either. They were relentless in their criticisms. So, if the critiques come your way with the purchase of your Z-20, just realize that others have gotten it too and that you aren't alone.

I for one have never said the Z-20 is going to be a bad buy. I was on the waiting list for it as well. I'm sure it's going to be a perfectly acceptable, well priced, well made piece of machinery. The only criticism I could have would be the delays in delivery, or rather the constant shifting of the timeline. But that's normal when dealing with design changes and the like.

I think you'll like what you receive. Hope to hear from you about it!

... still offering the XM-2000 for $1500... the new $2000 price ... knowing that X-Treme had raised prices

I think the question is.. how much is it worth to you to have an electric vehicle, or whether it's worth the time and bickering to save $500 on the purchase.

If you are the type that is willing to take a risk on a product that hasn't been reviewed locally (yes from Australia), then I bet you will be happier with one of these: http://www.fun-ev.com
Manufacturer is shipping Oct 15.

... still offering the XM-2000 for $1500... the new $2000 price ... knowing that X-Treme had raised prices

I think the question is.. how much is it worth to you to have an electric vehicle, or whether it's worth the time and bickering to save $500 on the purchase.

I think its a matter of "so, at that price does the product exist?". You are giving someone money somewhere far away for a promise that they will send you something in return. Whats not known is if the someone ever intends to honor the promise, or if the something even exists. I don't assume anything. I don't deal with anyone until I know something about them, or I expect to lose my money. So I don't have any surprises.

Too many people have to learn this the hard way. Get some information about the companies you deal with over the internet. Try and find some feedback to know if they are an honorable business. http://www.resellerratings.com is a good place, and I'm sure there are others. Yahoo has a feedback system and so does amazon (for companies that deal through amazon). If you can't find any information than consider paying more to a company that is reputable. You'll most likely save money, time, and a lot of trouble.

And the Z pulls 90 amp to get to 40 for 20 seconds, then that is great accleration, and pulling double the amps out of that battery intermittently over and over is going to have an effect on its lifecycle versus pulling half the amps for two to three times as long intermittently.

And if people have the option to pull 90 to get up to speed, they are going to use it, and after they fry some batteries and post in this forum and recommendation via testing is, dont accelerate so hard or you will reduce battery life. Then they will try that, it will work, they will be PO'd because they will recall the performace they had versus the performance limitations they must now abide by, or pay for the convenience of the feature via more lead per mile.

The real mistake was taking these scooter to 60 volts with current battery technology, the size and weight limit of 120-130 lbs for batteries makes the U1 battery unsuitable for these high amp draws. A 4 battery 48 volt bike would have larger batteries with more plate area and more capable of providing the amp loads, of course, the volts are down so the watts are down too. A 48 volt XM would pull closer to 60 instead of 45, but it would have a battery with more plate area and may last longer and perform better with less voltage drop.

LiFePo4 is the only answer, and once that is available we will be demanding 90 volts and up

*sigh* I'm tired of saying the same thing. Aparently mine and PJD's opinion doesn't count for much, so let the data speak for itself---

Here is published data from Hawker Energy for their Gensis AGM batteries:

Cycle Life at 25 degrees C

At 15 min rate (about 2.6C)
250 for 100% DOD and 2.45 vpc charge for 16-24 hrs
350 for 80% DOD and 2.45 vpc charge for 16-24 hrs
At 3 to 5 hr rate (about .3C at 3 hr rate)
400 for 100% DOD and 2.45 vpc charge for 16-24 hrs
500 for 80% DOD and 2.45 vpc charge for 16-24 hrs

2.6C for a 35 ah battery is 91 amps.

For a renault electric car conversion that my family owned it had 170 ahr flooded golf cart type batteries manufactured by Trojan. The controller could go up to 600 amps peak. It took 200 amps accelerating on most starts. Depending on the conditions you could hold over 200 amps like if you have a really steep hill for a considerable amount of time. The batteries lasted about 18,000 miles. The range was about 45-50 miles.

My Kz750 motorcycle conversion can draw a max of 550+ amps on little B&B 35 ah batteries. Thats almost 16C. It takes at least 120 amps continuous to maintain 65 mph. The batteries haven't fried. Actually they remain fairly low in temperature when I discharge the batteries in like 5-10 min.

My dad's Yahama conversion has Hawker cyclone AGMs and 50 ah capacity at 72v. The maximum current is about 200-300 amps or 4-6C. Its been 4 yrs since he got it running. Probably put a few hundred cycles on the batteries and ridden more than 2000 miles. The batteries are still fine.

I read a diary of an EMB Lectra owner this is the link but the site has been taken down. If I remember right he got over 3,000 miles out of his batteries. The Lectra used a 24v system with two 2-battery strings of optima 55 ah batteries in parallel. The max discharge current was at least 250 amps I think or 125 amps per battery or ~2.3C. The range was about 12-15 miles.

From Deafscooter post:

Deafscooter is Here...

Craig read this about multi battery pack in series

i have matched batteries in my EVT 168 Asian S.E.

the Battery last 4500 miles old one set of four 12v

then i replacment hawker batteries then it still use
now it near 7750 miles on my red scooter to today

the battery pack alway direct charge station from
Multi charger station for ovenight to perfect balace

Craig Uyeda
Deafscoote

I think this is the scooter he's talking about: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/957

Will contact the owner of this corbin sparrow with 12,000 miles. The corbin sparrow had a 600 amp controller I think. With 55 ah Optima AGMs thats almost 11C max.

I noticed your corbin sparrow page at http://www.evalbum.com . Looks like a really fun EV to drive. I was wondering how long the first set of batteries lasted.

Regards,
Andrew

I'll post what information I get.

Will contact the owner of this corbin sparrow. Same message, and I'll post any information.

I'll continue to look for more information...

USAtracey,

I was replying to John, who was clearly referring to range per charge.

To condense Andrew's long post, which had lots of good (multi generational!) case data, any good SLA can be discharged at 5C (i.e. 5 x AH rating) or so without any effect on cycle life as long as it isn't over discharged. It is _depth_ of discharge not rate of discharge that affects battery life.

And, I am getting a distinct sense of deja-vu pointing this out.

err... let's all do the two step it goes something like this:

repeat

• usatracy says U1 batteries of all types are too small
• pjd & andrew says AGM batteries can handle the amp load
• usatracy says those aren't U1 sized batteries
• pjd & andrew says they're close

oh yeah, and sprinkle in random comments from Deafscooter for good measure.

or is that a four and a half step?

PJD & usatracy:
you might want to start using the (quote=whomever) (/quote) functionality (replace parenthesis with square brackets).

PJD:
I know you were responding to me. I'm still trying to do the math where you pull more amps out of the batteries (because you have a higher amp limit) but still get the same range. I think you must have changed something else at the same time. Yet you say no. Explain this slowly for me... please?

oh yeah, and sprinkle in random comments from Deafscooter for good measure.

Did you notice the content? He's using AGM batteries. And they happen to have lasted several thousand miles. And his amp limit on the control from the evalbum page is 250 amps.

I will try and explain what I'm trying to argue more clearly:

1. AGM or any deep cycle lead-acid battery life is not significantly affected by discharge rate.

2. Please reread my post above until you are convinced that No. 1 is true. Still not convinced?

I challenge you to post any evidence that discharge rate drastically affects AGM battery life. Otherwise stop posting misinformation that such is the case. I tried very hard to find this because people were claiming on the old forum that such was the case. If it is the case I really want to know about it, because as you can see from my motorcycle project I'm discharging my batteries at almost 16C. That makes the 90 amp discharge rate for the Z20 look like a joke.

John,

Well, I'm not necessarily using any more amps in level ground riding. In 48 volt mode, on level on level ground above about 30 mph. The motor itself limits the amps to well below the 95 amp setting. Recall the motor amps/RPM curve in those links a few posts ago.

Also, recall that discounting air drag and rolling friction, the energy required to climb a hill is just vehicle weight times the height of the hill. Speed is not a factor. Of course climbing a steep hill at 20 mph versus 30 mph, air drag is a lot greater (but still small at this speed) and there is a bit more rolling friction. So, of course more mechanical energy is being spent, but greater electrical efficiency at the higher motor speed offsets these effects, so the electrical energy per unit distance going up the hill is the same or less.

Remember, we are talking about energy, not power - if you use twice the power output getting somewhere 3 times faster you use only 66% as much energy.

But, this is just a working hypothesis to explain my observations at this point. I already calculated the torque required for various speeds and hill slopes. I can hook an ammeter and voltmeter onto the scooter and do a hill of known length and height at 2 or 3 different speeds, measuring volts and amps. I can then compare electrical energy versus mechanical energy spent climbing the hill to test the hypothesis.

Once EVT show us the photos of fully production,you will expect to receive Z-20 or R-20 in 2-3months later.

By now EVT have nothing to show....

It seems to me that there might be a use in transferring many elements of this thread to a new one. Debating the nuances of amperage doesn't help someone very much who is truly reading this thread wondering "Which commuter Scooter should I buy?" We're getting way off topic. As a method to prevent this in the future I think it would be more useful if this thread looked something like this...

----------------
The XM-2000 is a great choice because of point A (see http://blah-blah for a detailed explanation) and also because of point B (see this link too). The Z-20 doesn't compare because if you look here (blah blah) you'll see that I am right.
----------------

If it's not a technical thread then let's put the technical information in a different thread and then reference it.

I was a lurker for a while and I imagine that are many who do the same. I believe that the more streamlined and clear we can make this board the most utility it will bring to all, both members and info surfers.

Don,
Don't complain about talk of amperages and batteries, believe me. The information these guys are giving here is invaluable. When it comes to electric scooters, it's all about the batteries.

The motor isn't going to wear out, and the fit and finish are going to be decent whatever you get. The batteries are going to be the most important factor that differs from model to model and will be the one thing that you're going to need to know about.

Nobody is debating here the make and model of the tires on these scooters. Or the brand of the brake pads. Or the quality of the light switches. Or the grade of the plastic on the body panels. Nor even of the way they look in general, or their style, or their paint jobs. Aside from the wattage of the motor, all they want (and need) to know about is the batteries.

So, I'd say it's impossible to talk about what brand of scooter you should buy without considering what kind of speed and range you expect to get out of it. Expect to sift through the technical details and pick out of it what you want.

DonCristobal,

Sorry you're unhappy again. I've been avoiding singing the praises of the XM at the expense of the Z-20 - because you and other's seemed unhappy with that (and I respected that). You mentioned you would start an XM2K is wonderful thread based on your extensive knowledge from reading all our fine prose. You didn't follow through on that... ;-) just kidding there folks!

A couple of points on your latest unhappiness:

(1) Crunchfam apparently got the answers he was looking for and AFAIK, ordered an XM2K from Arctic Fox. So, the thread served at least some purpose for him (unless of course he just decided to go with his choice regardless).

(2) Which rules apply to you and which reply to the rest of us with regard to sarcasm / cynicism? You just complained about usatracy's sarcasm on another thread and resorted to sarcasm here.

(3) "Debating the nuances of amperage" does apply very much to the forum topic. The basic gist of the argument is one camp that says - beware of small, undersized, lead acid batteries in your commuter scooter. The other camp says - small AGMs will be fine it's just the Silicone variety that are unsuited to a commuter scooter. I'm looking forward to some meaningful response to my post which addresses andrew's challenge.

(4) The nature of an online debate via forum posting is rather cumbersome and time consuming process. If we were to ever come to an agreement then that would be the time to summarize in a new thread. If we don't agree on what the attributes of the best commuter scooter are then we can't really keep it summarized, can we? Unless of course you want someone to arbitrarily declare a "winner".

(5) If the ins and outs of the debate leaves you for cold then simply peruse the company's websites. They will attempt to answer the questions for you in a very streamlined fashion (something along the lines of "buy our scooter it's the best").