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Hi Mik,
The Fan 'run on'. With the two hours fan run on, then the fans can be 'switched' on or off as you describe. If, when you switch off, the fans run on, you can leave them run for the two hour period OR, you can switch the bike back on, allow the electronics to settle (at which time the red Temp and Batt lights will flash) and then switch off and the fans will stop.
Looked at another way, if the red temp and batt lights are flashing then when you switch off the fans will stop. If the temp and batt lights are 'off' then the fans will run on for the two hour delay.
The flashing of the red temp and batt lights is a programme problem and Not an indication of fault. If you want to be sure, then the 'left brake/kill switch' check will confirm any problem or lack of problem indicated bt the flashing ights.
This description applies only to the combination of software MCR1017 and my modified software.
I will check whether the 'switching on or off of the fans will work consistently with other delays. What I shall also do within a few days is to redefine the 'system' I am using. Trying to produce variations for everyones different requirements is becoming increasingly difficult.
Just to release a little pent up frustration, I will remind you all that If Vectrix sacked the 'Cupid Stunt' that is responsible for writing the current damaging software and then co-operated with me on this problem, we might just make rapid progress. While Vectrix continue to employ that software engineer/mental defective, their products are doomed to failure and we will continue to suffer the battery problems he has generated
Oh. Don't be concerned that Vectrix or their engineer might take legal action against me for my remarks. They simply couldn't win the case. If they think that they can then I challenge them to try me.
Telling it like it is, as always.
The Laird
My understanding is that these software changes are much gentler on the batteries, but introduce incompatibility issues between charger and motor controller software versions. Because of that, no fuel gauge will be available (or always show the wrong SOC).
Could this be solved by adding a Cycle Analyst to accurately monitor the SOC?
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
A CA would work well for determining your SOC, there are even simpler ways to do this - a dedicated SOC meter could be based on a coulomb counter IC (how most cellphone battery SOC meters work).
I still maintain that the charger design is a piece of dog turd ~ I reverse engineered a few bits on my broken one and was amazed how badly designed they are.
I may fix it and rip the canbus rubbish out, and modify it for lithium/lead with a simple CC/CV setup. Its just a glorified power supply after all. All the canbus stuff does is adjust the voltage and current limits, and turns a relay off to the batteries.
Why vectrix didn't implement a proper delta v/delta T charge algorithm I don't know.
Anyone that has access to the diagnostics and a CANbus adapter can configure the charger SW so that the charging profile matches the actual battery capacity. No need to modify the actual charger code.
Depending on the version of diags you have the sequence is slightly different. You can either let the SW measure the actual capacity or just cut to the chase and configure a battery capacity. For instance, if you consistently get to 25% of fuel gauge when the battery light comes on, you can configure the SW for 23AmpHrs max (75% of 30Ahrs). This will change the charge profile and scale the gauge accordingly. If anyone is interested I can provide the details.
I'm sure we're all interested, but I wouldn't want to speak for everyone, so I'll just speak for myself....I'm interested.
Now I have the chance to say something that I have wanted to say in a very long time.
I don't think that anyone will say to the contrary that there are (have been) flaws in the charging software. If this were not the case then perhaps Vectrix Mk1 might be still be alive - I can not imagine how much it cost the company to change the countless numbers of battery packs over the years. I'm sure that the numbers are staggering.
Anyway this is not my point.
Way back in this thread we have the Laird doing some great work on his own to try and fix some of the issues in the software. No one can deny that heating is one of the major problem that is/has been killing the batteries.
In the above post we have X-Vectrix who no doubt has considerable knowledge in the makeup of the software, is also wanting to help and has been doing so with varous gems of information over the years.
I 'm happy to give both of these guys as much love and encouragement as they need.
We need them to put their heads together - forgetting the politics and thinking of the greater good. All we want is a reliable bike that is, in summer, not cooking its batteries.
I, for one, would be happy to pay some $ for a software that will avoid these problems. I'm sure that they can do some great business together.
I encourage you all to post to try and gently prod these 2 to help for the common good of us all.
Hopefully not in my naivety.
Jonathan
Hello Johnathan (and everyone else),
I have just read your post and agree with most of what you have said. Unfortunately however, you seem to be unaware that I have already made a number of approaches to XVectrix via the forum and via personal messages. Sadly, all to no avail so far.
As you know from my posts, I have a working charger programme which will charge the battery from empty to 80% in under 4 hrs, It will complete the charge (to full) in another 4hrs. All of this with no heating of the battery. Due to incompatibilities between the charger and motor controller software, I cannot persuade the fuel gauge and mileage countdown/estimation to co-operate. (I am currently getting a minimum of 30 miles per charge, up to 40 miles even).
My programme is usable, I use the mileage trip to track the miles travelled and the voltage readout to estimate the battery power remaining.
Point being, I have a working system with zero battery damage.
Now, Xvectrix. He is without doubt privy to the 'innards' of the current software, indeed his posts indicate a serious familiarity with current vectrix software. I will go so far as to suggest that he is currently involved/employed in the software side of the Vectrix business.
So, what is the problem? Well, so far as I am concerned, there isn't one. I have stated my willingness to work with Xvectrix and the Vectrix corporation to sort out the charging issues. Xvectrix seems to be the one with the problem. His latest post seems designed to persuade Vectrix owners out there not to try out my modified software, indeed, he offers to provide software 'patches' to change the charger 'profile', suggesting that this will solve the problem. Well, Sorry folks , but the 'patches' on offer will NOT solve the problem which is caused by fundamental failures in the charging algorithm.
What then can be done?
Well, I can and do hereby offer to work with Xvectrix and the New Vectrix Organisation for the purpose of solving the charging problems. In return for my co-operation, I ask for no more than access to all software for the sole purpose of searching for improvements which will extend the useful service life of the Vectrix bikes.
In the mean time, If anyone wants to try my modified software with it's advantages and limitations, Then a personal message to me will start the ball rolling.
Xvectrix is also invited to send me a personal message regarding these issues and we can start to talk business.
The Laird.
(Telling it like it is, as always)
So, if you have the diagnostics you can use the following procedure to force a desired Amp hrs on the charge system. Depending on the version of diags you have you will need to navigate to either the "Memory" page or the "MC/Charger" page. On either page you will see an ADDRESS and DATA field. You will use these to write to the MC memory to set the Ahrs. Perform 4 writes as follows (ADDRESS, DATA) in this order:
0xA8,0x0020
0x9C,Ahrs_high
0x9E,Ahrs_low
0x00,0x5AA5
Calculate Ahrs_high and Ahrs_low as follows: Desired_Ahrs * 7376 converted to hexidecimal. Ahrs_high is the high word, Ahrs_low is the low word. For example, to program 24Ahrs: 24*7376=177,024 or 0x2B380. Ahr_high = 0x2 and Ahrs_low = 0xB380. Or use the chart below.
AmpHrs Ahrs_high Ahrs_low
20 0x2 0x4040
21 0x2 0x5D10
22 0x2 0x79E0
23 0x2 0x96B0
24 0x2 0xB380
25 0x2 0xD050
26 0x2 0xED20
27 0x3 0x09F0
If you dont have the diags you can use the CAN snooping program, PCANview, provided with the CAN interface dongle. If you need instructions let me know.
Reading through this thread, and trying to grasp what I can... and realising how little I know about this sort of bike... I have a question... would all this about the original Vetrix charger problems be rendered obsolete if the batteries are changed to lithium? I mean, from what I understand, Vectrix messed up on the charging system on the VX1 because they wanted to be able to claim short charging times etc and this has led to The Laird's modifications on the charger which result in less heat being generated in the batteries when they are being charged... right? But, if lithium batteries are used, as per Antiscab's videos on youtube and observations on this forum, am I right in saying that the original Vectrix charger is then OK and up to the job? I see that Matt's lithium conversion system uses the original charger and does away with the fans completely, so heat then is no longer an issue? Or is it?
I went out on my newly-acquired Vectrix today. I have a Yamaha XJR1300 that does about 150mph and 0-60 in 3 seconds or something like that and I've had 30 motorbikes of one sort or another but..... the Vectrix was really great! It's a totally different ride and really appealing. So, I'd like to keep it, and keep it running as well as possible for as long as possible. Reading the threads on this forum reminds me of reading through a medical textbook... it seems amazing how anyone stays alive. I'm wondering if it'll just be a waste of time, money and hope to run my Vectrix at all.
So... question... does converting to lithium as per Matt's kit + lithium cells result in a useable, reliable bike that's worth keeping?
Basically you are correct.
If however you want your NIMH pack to last as long as it can, the Lairds software is the way to go. Once you make the switch to Lithium you can switch back to Vectrix code.
I just want to add a quick report about the effectiveness of The Lairds software: It's great!
My Vectrix is being used very rarely these days. A few days ago, while riding it for the first time after about 4 months of inactivity, the initial range to reversal of the first cell was about 2km.
My battery is still the original NiMH battery that came with the bike 5 years ago. The cells capacities are somewhere between 30Ah and 16Ah due to cell damage inflicted before I installed a manual BMS. This BMS lets me measure the voltages (under charge and load) of all the damaged cells and also of a few good cells. That's how I know the following:
The Lairds software brings the cells in my battery to within 2mV of each other at the end of the first full charge after an inactivity period. This is despite of the cells differences in capacity and SOC due to different self-discharge rates.
When I first measured the battery voltage a few days ago before the first ride, the battery voltage was 124V or thereabouts. The weakest cells were holding an open voltage of around 1.2V but started to reverse immediately as soon as I just turned the key to on. Upon commencement of charging, these weak cells had a higher voltage than the better cells (as expected of a deeply discharged cell). The voltage difference then gradually settles as the SOC increases until all cell voltages are the same. If the charge current is too high or the charge continues for too long, then the weaker cells will eventually either have higher or lower voltage than the rest of the pack, depending on their particular damage.
I charged to 5 bars with the Lairds software and then went for a brief ride. I got cell reversals after 2km under very light load (~20A, as measured with Galago's CANMON, more on that later). I had to continue my round course of 5km and when I got home I let the software do a full charge.
The full charge took a long time, because it also went into an EQ mode for several hours at the end; I had not seen that happen before. At the end of the charge, there was no detectable heating of the battery and all cells were within 2mV of each other. The fuel gauge showed about 12/17th.
The range on the next ride was increased to 15km, with reversals only under much higher load on steep hills at the end of the ride.
The target voltages and the charge currents for the various charging stages in The Lairds software are extremely well chosen to allow the battery to charge as fast as possible and as fully as possible without undue damage from heating and/or overcharging. Well done!
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Hi,
I want to ask a question here to The Laird or X Vectrix.
Is it possible now to modify the ESD chargers software for a much bigger battery capacity ? Maybe for 70 or more Amphrs ?
We have now a project in Germany at a Technical University where they put 110 Ahrs in the Vectrix.
As I was told its a 36S configuration with LiCo cells.
And they want to get battery full charged with the ESD charger. Would that be possible or some Amphrs more ?
And if yes, is the 16 bars 'fuel gauge' than still working in the up and down counting mode ?
Klaus
Hello Klaus,
The answer to your question is both yes and no.
The ESD charger is capable of a maximum input to the battery of just over 60 ampere hours. At this level the fuel gauge will work normally on both charge and discharge. This would require a modification to the charger file but otherwise is straightforward.
It is possible to charge the 110 ampere hours battery with the ESD charger. With a modified charger file allowing 60 ampere hours, the bike could be charged to 'Full = 60 a/h'. If then the fuel gauge was re-set using the diagnostics programme, then the charger could be re-started and another 50 amp hr could be put into the battery giving the 110 amp hour total charge.
The full gauge can also be 'persuaded' to run down to zero over the whole of the battery capacity and it may be possible to 'cheat' the input side to achieve a full 110amp hr charge, I haven't tried that one yet.
So, as I said the answer to your question, for the moment anyway, is both Yes and No.
XVectrix may have other ideas to help you out on this one.
The Laird.
Hopefully not poking a dead horse here....
What do the lines '0xA8,0x0020' and '0x00,0x5AA5' modify?
Thanks.
they tell the charger how high it can count - basically telling the charger the batteries actual capacity.
problem is, if you enter anything higher than 32Ah, it just defaults to 32Ah
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
The Laird has been able to increase the allowed Ah capacity since that post from last year
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
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