Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

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antiscab
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Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Hi Guys,

If you are in Perth, Western Australia,

I am holding a Vectrix Lithium conversion workshop in May.

If you would like to have your Vectrix converted to Lithium, send me a PM.

cost will be $3350, though you will need to do a bit of the work yourself (I'll show how to do everything).
deposit of $1000 will need to be paid in Feb to ensure the parts will be ready in May (theres a 3 month lead time on the cells).

bits included:
42 x WB 40Ah cells (also known as thundersky)
42 x CM060 EV Power BMS modules
1 x master module
lotsa other odds and ends.

the original fuel guage will still work, and we will use the original charger.
obviously at 0 bars, only 32Ah will be used.

The only other condition is that I get to keep your old ni-mh battery.

To those living in the rest of Australia, I will have a white Lithium powered Vectrix for sale in May (with 40Ah cells).

Matt

yamez4u
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

What increase in range do you get with the lithium cells?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

What increase in range do you get with the lithium cells?

with the 40Ah cells you get:

50km @ 100kmh
65km @ 80kmh
80km@60-70kmh

thats with treating 0bars/32Ah as the discharge limit.

with 60Ah cells, 1.5x more.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

About 4335km from Brisbane to Perth....

Lets see....35km range per CP stage charge, taking 2 hrs each...makes 124 stops along the way. Average speed of 70km/h means 30min riding per trip, 2 hrs charging.

16 hrs per day on the road makes 16h/2.5h = 6.4 trips per day on average. Lets say 7 because of the full overnight charge.

124/7= 17.71 days to get there...means I could easily make it to the workshop by May!

How long would it take to make the same trip back with the lithium batteries?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

About 4335km from Brisbane to Perth....

Lets see....35km range per CP stage charge, taking 2 hrs each...makes 124 stops along the way. Average speed of 70km/h means 30min riding per trip, 2 hrs charging.

16 hrs per day on the road makes 16h/2.5h = 6.4 trips per day on average. Lets say 7 because of the full overnight charge.

124/7= 17.71 days to get there...means I could easily make it to the workshop by May!

How long would it take to make the same trip back with the lithium batteries?

lol!!

50km@100kmh
3hours per charge

16/3.5 = 4.5
or 5 including full night charge = 250km/day

comes out to 17.34 days :(

if done at 70kmh......
80km@70kmh = 1.14 hours riding
4.14 hours cycle
4 a day = 320km

or 13.5 days

hmmm lets try with 80Ah cells (a possibility if you have $10k):
105km @ 105kmh
4 hours per cycle, 4 a day,
400km/day
or 11 days :D

orrr, lets try with 2 x 2000W elcon chargers (only ~$1000):
with 40Ah cells:
50km @ 100kmh
0.5 hours riding
1.5 hours charging.
9 cycles/day
450km = 10 days

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

kingcharles
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Just to clarify, will it hurt to use the lithium battery in these temperatures or will it damage the cells.
Either during riding at sub zero temperatures or charging.
NiMH seems to handle the charging bit well (perhaps because it generates so much internal heat). I charged this winter at -14C without problems.
Google is not that clear on this point when it comes to lithium (I read contradicting stories...) Maybe because there are just too many lithium variants
Thanks

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Just to clarify, will it hurt to use the lithium battery in these temperatures or will it damage the cells.
Either during riding at sub zero temperatures or charging.
NiMH seems to handle the charging bit well (perhaps because it generates so much internal heat). I charged this winter at -14C without problems.
Google is not that clear on this point when it comes to lithium (I read contradicting stories...) Maybe because there are just too many lithium variants

I don't know for sure.

perhaps one of us could test a single cell to find out, kinda like these guys did here:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=980&PID=12047#12047

put a cell in the freezer, and see how it handles being charged and discharged...

at the very least, you may need a larger pack just to deal with the increased voltage sag.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Just to clarify, will it hurt to use the lithium battery in these temperatures or will it damage the cells.
Either during riding at sub zero temperatures or charging.
NiMH seems to handle the charging bit well (perhaps because it generates so much internal heat). I charged this winter at -14C without problems.
Google is not that clear on this point when it comes to lithium (I read contradicting stories...) Maybe because there are just too many lithium variants

I don't know for sure.

perhaps one of us could test a single cell to find out, kinda like these guys did here:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=980&PID=12047#12047

put a cell in the freezer, and see how it handles being charged and discharged...

at the very least, you may need a larger pack just to deal with the increased voltage sag.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Todd
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Matt,

This is a great idea, wish you were here in the US. Whats the cost with the 60 ah cells? If I was going to spend the money I would definitely want the larger batteries - sounds close to 100 km @ 80kmh or 60 miles @ 50 mph. Taking into account C rates, at lower speeds you should be able to get better than 1.5 times the range. I mean all other things equal a 50% larger cell at the same C rate should give more than 50% higher range. Plus the higher capacity batteries should have a longer life span - due to lower average depth of discharge and they should handle the higher discharge rates with less stress. Most of my large battery experience with with PB so feel free to enlighten me if I have wandered off the reservation here...

Todd

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Hi Todd,

yep, with 60Ah cells you really do get 100km@80kmh

that actually only needs 48Ah to do, so not really stressing them either.
thats with 44 cells.

power delivery changes aswell.
power at 70kmh (measured from the battery) is ~14kw.
power at 80kmh to 112kmh is 29kw, it really does through you back as you go from 70kmh to 80kmh if you're not expecting it.
Its the only time I have had that scared "im accelerating really fast" feeling on an electric bike, but not because it was that powerful, but because I wasn't expecting it.

do note that you only get 65km@110kmh.

There are 80Ah cells that I think will fit, but they're bare case, so will take a bit more engineering to setup than the plastic case large formats like Thundersky cells.

clarifying a bit more on temperature extremes,
The cell losses go down substantially with increased temperauter (you can observe this as reduced sag).
The effect is so large that when the cell internal temperature hits 60 deg C, cell voltages stay above 3.2v even at 1.5C continuous.

the effect is that the cells would have to be heated to 70 deg C externally for internal temperature to reach that bad 77 deg C breakdown damaging temperature.

I still don't know what happens in really cold temperatures (below negative 5 deg C)

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Aircon
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

You forgot to answer about the cost difference.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

using 60Ah cells costs around ~$5200.

The installation isn't nearly as neat due to the need to raise the seat, and cut through alotta plastic.

The 80Ah cells I haven't really costed out yet, I just know they're available.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

MitchJi
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Hi,

Matt,

This is a great idea, wish you were here in the US.

It might be a good idea to either make this available live through the web or create a DVD. A DVD would probably be a good idea in any case so you could give participants a copy.

How's the longevity of a lithium battery compared to what we have now?

Lithium cells degrade faster by just the passing of time, without being used much.

I'm not sure if thats true. I had some Sony Lithium Camcorder Cells that I didn't use for over 10 years and they worked fine. If nothing else the self-dicharge would have killed NiMH.

IMO it probably depends partially on the quality of the Lithium Cells. I wouldn't be surprised if the TS Cells don't last as long as the GP NiMH.

For a 40AH option (if they fit) I'd prefer to spend a little more and use 18p (41.4AH) A123 M1 cells (between $3,800 and $4200 for the Cells - price includes making the parallel connections, pack building). Very high C rate and excellent high and low temperature performance. Here's the specs:
A123 M1 Cell Specs (PDF)

Best Wishes!

Mitch

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

For a 40AH option (if they fit) I'd prefer to spend a little more and use 18p (41.4AH) A123 M1 cells (between $3,800 and $4200 for the Cells - price includes making the parallel connections, pack building). Very high C rate and excellent high and low temperature performance. Here's the specs:
A123 M1 Cell Specs (PDF)

the TS 40Ah cells by themselves represent around $2400 of the total conversion cost, the rest is all the other stuff required.

the high C rates would be wasted on a Vectrix IMO.

the controller pulls a max of 220A from the battery, for around 5.5C for a 40Ah pack for the ~2 seconds it takes to get from 80kmh to 110kmh.

below 80kmh, the max current draw is closer to 120A, or 3C.

A123 cells should in theory last longer, but making a pack out of those is somewhat harder.

I prefer just using larger cheap cells for more power :)

I may make a DVD of the conversion, I usually do these things with the intention of doing good documentation, but that tends to get forgotten :(

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

marcopolo
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

the TS 40Ah cells by themselves represent around $2400 of the total conversion cost, the rest is all the other stuff required.Matt

A little off the topic Matt, but with newer, better, cheaper, lighter, greener, battery technology, ranging from carbon foam to zinc-air poised to be released, what is the future of lithium based batteries?

Lithium is a difficult mineral to mine and process. It's also relatively rare in commercially viable deposits. Lead and zinc, are both plentiful, cheap, available and more importantly, easily recycled. A conversion cost of $5200, plus labour seems an expensive method of extending the life of a VX1.

I suppose the question is why bother? To fix all the defects on a VX1 would probably set the average owner back $6-8000.(without labour). Wouldn't it be simpler to just buy a new two-wheel EV, that will perform just as well as the Vectrix?

After all, the VX1 is now relatively old technology. With most of the smaller, lighter Ev bikes achieving the same performance criteria as the VX1, (without all the downsides), what is the point in preserving a VX1 other than as a sentimental oddity?

marcopolo

mikemitbike
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

I suppose the question is why bother? To fix all the defects on a VX1 would probably set the average owner back $6-8000.(without labour). Wouldn't it be simpler to just buy a new two-wheel EV, that will perform just as well as the Vectrix?

After all, the VX1 is now relatively old technology. With most of the smaller, lighter Ev bikes achieving the same performance criteria as the VX1, (without all the downsides), what is the point in preserving a VX1 other than as a sentimental oddity?

Hi, mybe I get it wrong, but it sounds for me like "throw-away society". To repair my V from useless to 55km (average) range which is enough for my needs, did cost me [again thanks to the members of this forum]about 250 Euros... As I did not sit-and-wait during the batterytestings, the amount of time to repair was not to big. Otherwise I must calculate the waste of time sitting in a cinema , talking with friends , go swimming or go walking reading this and other forums etc. too?

Relatively old technology does not mean useless technology ;-)

And you said it: ...smaller, lighter Ev bikes... I wont use such bikes (I tested some) even -with better performance in range- as i usually drive 50-100 km/per day and the other bikes where too small to feel save and comfortable. As lon as my cells and sparecells work out I´ll continue to use it. When there is no spare cell left, and the rest is still funktionall, off course I´ll upgrade too. Otherwhise it will be a permanent loan to a museum.

Take a look to www.evalbum.com and to the conversioncosts there...

Greetings Mike

marcopolo
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

Hi, mybe I get it wrong, but it sounds for me like "throw-away society".

Relatively old technology does not mean useless technology ;-)

Schön, dich kennen zu lernen, Mike.

I am not advocating a "throw-away society". Repair and recycling have a ueful role. However, The VX1 was conceived as an economic, technically innovative, efficient consumer vehicle. If those attributes become superseded, it's perfectly proper to update to a more efficient EV.

If no one purchased new products, three detrimental effects would occur. A) Technology would cease to advance. The unit cost savings created by mass/volume sales would disappear, and with it the economic incentive to invest in innovative new technology.B) A deterioration in public safety and quality of life. C) The resulting loss of economic activity would reduce the chance of each generation to participate in social advancement.

If you enjoy riding your VX1, (as I do), thats great! I can appreciate that the size of the VX1 is very comforting. I also own a 1966 mark 11 Jaguar, this car is a work of art, and much loved. However, I wouldn't contemplate advocating it's suitability for use a daily transport in a busy city.

I have a former colleague who proudly claims that the old VW beetlle he drives everyday is a protest against supporting evil corporations squandering the earths resources. Like most Chardonnay socialists, (he is employed as a highly paid academic/lawyer/consultant with government funded environmental policy institute) he claims to be unselfish.

In fact like same fuzzy leftists, his logic is flawed, not only does he selfishly operate a motor vehicle that uses an inordinate amount of oil, but the little VW lacks any modern safety equipment, thereby endangering himself and fellow road users! What I really resent is he inflicts this ego driven philosophy on his unfortunate children when passengers in this little death trap.

Unfortunately, its the very size of the VX1 that contributed to the sales failure of the VX1. At nearly 200 kg, the VX1 was simply to heavy too appeal to the majority of female buyers.

Bis bald!

marcopolo

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

A little off the topic Matt, but with newer, better, cheaper, lighter, greener, battery technology, ranging from carbon foam to zinc-air poised to be released, what is the future of lithium based batteries?

Lithium is a difficult mineral to mine and process. It's also relatively rare in commercially viable deposits. Lead and zinc, are both plentiful, cheap, available and more importantly, easily recycled. A conversion cost of $5200, plus labour seems an expensive method of extending the life of a VX1.

I suppose the question is why bother? To fix all the defects on a VX1 would probably set the average owner back $6-8000.(without labour). Wouldn't it be simpler to just buy a new two-wheel EV, that will perform just as well as the Vectrix?

After all, the VX1 is now relatively old technology. With most of the smaller, lighter Ev bikes achieving the same performance criteria as the VX1, (without all the downsides), what is the point in preserving a VX1 other than as a sentimental oddity?

new better etc battery technology has always been around the corner.
when it appears on my price list in a format thats easy enough to put into a bike, then it matters.
LiFePO4 is still king for the moment in this regard (of which not much is actually Lithium)

total conversion cost to 40Ah cells is ~$4000 inc labor (exchange rate dependant on some bits of course).

with the battery changed, thats about it for the defects.
The issue of having to get parts is slowly going away, either by chinese copies or the growing stockpile of second hand dead/crashed VX1's.

The firmware on the various devices are slowly being hacked aswell.

The VX1 has a fairly large frame, allowing you to cram alotta batteries in there (I should know, I have a usable 7kwh on board).

My own bike gives me 80km@100kmh.

I regularly do more than 100km on a charge, something that I have yet to see any other road bike do (at least at speeds above 80kmh).

my average energy usage (measured at the power point) is 8kwh/100km (or 80Wh/km).

for the most part it is worthwhile keeping existing VX1s going, as they don't cost much to do so (as long as a dwindling number of VX1's on the road is acceptable).

It probably isn't worthwhile continuing manufacture of them, given that existing examples are still trying to find a home.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

marcopolo
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion workshop

new better etc battery technology has always been around the corner.
when it appears on my price list in a format thats easy enough to put into a bike, then it matters.
LiFePO4 is still king for the moment in this regard (of which not much is actually Lithium)

total conversion cost to 40Ah cells is ~$4000 inc labor (exchange rate dependant on some bits of course).

with the battery changed, thats about it for the defects.
The issue of having to get parts is slowly going away, either by chinese copies or the growing stockpile of second hand dead/crashed VX1's.

The firmware on the various devices are slowly being hacked as well.

I regularly do more than 100km on a charge, something that I have yet to see any other road bike do (at least at speeds above 80kmh).

my average energy usage (measured at the power point) is 8kwh/100km (or 80Wh/km).

These are all valid points Matt, and anyone with a VX1 wanting to upgrade should certainly consider your option.

marcopolo

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