Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

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reikiman
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Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Saw this on twitter ..

MEroller
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Attn: Vectrix Owners: Remember to charge your Vectrix scooter batteries EVERY 2-3 WEEKS during the Winter to keep them fresh until Spring.

... or alternatively dress up well, put well-profiled tyres on your gem and continue riding it all winter long :-)

My rides:
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antiscab
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

disconnecting the anderson connector if storing a Vectrix for a long period of time is also good practice

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2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

bm3
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Hi

2-3 weeks ?
Every 2-3 month is ok.

regards

Klaus

CO2
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Where and what is connector anderson?

bm3
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Where and what is connector anderson?

Anderson Connector is the big blue connector in the battery box. It cuts the battery from Controller

CO2
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Picture please!

antiscab
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

2-3 weeks ?
Every 2-3 month is ok.

to keep the fuel guage accurate, every 2 - 3 weeks is necessary

if you want to avoid the not so sudden death of self discharge, you will either need to charge every 2 - 3 weeks, or have a usb-can adapter handy.
Thats because the charger won't charge if the fuel guage is full, no matter how discharged the battery is.

to last 2-3 months, the *battery* has to be fully charged.
A vectrix showing a full fuel guage is nearly always misleading - the battery isn't actually full

I've seen vectrix self discharge to 0v inside 5 weeks

charging every 2 - 3 months will guarantee you will have a dead (unserviceable) battery at the end of it

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

antiscab
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

israndy
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Remember if you disconnect this cable you are working with 150 volts which is deadly deadly DEADLY and you will need an in-rush limiter if you are going to plug it back in, to avoid damage to the bike. This can be something as simple as a lightbulb, but a 110 volt bulb may blow out with that much voltage.

Easier to set an alarm and plug the bike in as often as Vectrix recommends, or ride it on non-rainy days, because who would own a Vectrix and live in Canada or Vermont. NYC is digging out from that winter storm going thru, but I am just waltzing out and getting on my bike to go to work in an hour.

-Randy

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I also own a 2018 Tesla Model 3 and a 2012 Mitsubishi iMiev

The Laird
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Hello Folks,

I just love advice from Vectrix.

Winter Lay-up.
The Vectrix VX1 with NiMH battery loses about 5 to 10 Ma continuously. This would result in a fully charged battery (at 30 ah useable capacity) ending up empty after about 17 to 34 weeks (34 weeks at 5Ma or 17weeks at 10Ma).

Using safety factors of say: Battery of 22 ah capacity, charged to 80% full, and a standing loss of 15 Ma, the battery would take 7 weeks to discharge.

Seems to me that a two hour charge (use a timer) once a month would be more than enough to keep the battery in good condition.

Vectix's advice seems to suggest a full charge every two to three weeks. My advice is that doing as Vectrix suggest will almost certainly over-charge the battery on a regular basis during the winter lay-up. Hmmmmm. We've been here before me thinks.

Still, it is up to every owner to do as he/she decides. Me? well, I just try to be helpfull.

Best wishes and a long life to your battery :-)

The Laird

Mik
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

I have a question about the very slow deep discharge that the standby current drain causes:

Why does this not serve as a very slow, very effective deep exercise discharge cycle?

What I mean is this: After discharging a NiMH battery slowly and deeply, the power and capacity is often improved. But when you charge up a Vectrix VX1 after a slow 0.007A (C/4285) discharge, then the performance is poor for the several following discharge cycles (= poor power, poor capacity/range).

Usually, slow deep discharging of a NiMH battery, followed by slow full charging, reduces voltage depression and improves capacity.

So is it the slow charge (C/10) rather than the slow discharge that causes the improvement?

Maybe it is the slow charge into the usually still "full" part of the battery electrodes (the part that has been emptied by the slow deep discharge) which does the trick - funny how trying to clearly formulate a question often answers it in the process!

That would explain why I once got good range from my Vectrix after a single Universal Freddy charge (0.3A=C/100) after prolonged storage.

NiMH cells that have been deeply discharged show abnormally high voltage under charge, i.e. they cannot readily accept the charge current and turn it into chemical energy. But the stock charger software charges at 11-12A under these conditions, and The Lairds software at 6A.

A full charge at 3A (or less) might restore the NiMH VX1 to full performance after a storage break without the need to do several short trips on a scooter that is not really roadworthy.

An "End of Hibernation" charger program might be able to do this at 1.3A or so, that seems to be the lower limit of what the original stock charger can do. It would take about 2 days to complete the charge.

The "hibernation" procedure would then be the following:

1) Determine the end date and set a reminder (to ensure the voltage does not fall so low that the charger cannot start up.
2) Calculate the starting SOC needed to achieve deep discharge at the end of the hibernation period. E.G.: 0.007A x 24hr x 30 days x 2 months = 10.08Ah.
3) Charge to calculated SOC (in this case to 10Ah).
4) Install the "End of hibernation charge" software and turn the scooter off and unplug.
5) At the end date. plug in for 2 days before the first planned ride.
6) Repeat 5) if performance/range is not good enough yet.
7) Install the usual charger software once battery has fully "awakened".

Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Frolle
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

I follow MEroller's advice and dress up well, and together with handlebar heaters I have continued riding this winter.
When the pictures was taken it was about -15*C.
I have 25km to my work, and I can promise I have no problems with overheated batteries during charge outside when I arrive ;-)
They are just getting cooler during the charge (and ride).

vinter1.jpg

vinter2.jpg

The Laird
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Hi Mik,

The answer to your question is not easy. It rarely is :-)

In practical terms the battery behaves a bit like people, A lack of exercise over an extended period results in poor performance . On the other hand, regular exercise results in good performance. I know that the comparison of human body and chemical battery seems stupid BUT this is observed/observable behaviour, which can be tested and repeated always with the same result.

The only comparable device which comes to mind is the electrolytic capacitor. If an electrolytic capacitor is left unused for a great length of time (years even) then it must be 're-formed' before use. Failure to reform the capacitor results in seriously high leakage currents which can cause the capacitor to literally explode.

Now we are into the 'how does that work' and without getting into the nature of electro/chemical reactions there is no simple explanation. Therefore it is best to have the knowledge of what happens and simply cater for that pattern of behaviour.

Incidentally, the NiMH battery/cell does not have the 'memory/voltage depression' effect in any significant form so it is not something for which we have to allow.

The idea of deep discharge followed by a full charge is part of a 're-forming' process similar to that of the electrolytic capacitor. If the battery is used, say down to 120Volts (5%/10% of capacity) and then charged back up to 85%/90% on a regular basis, say once a week or so, then no other deep discharging is necessary.

After a prolonged storage spell then two cycles of use (down to 5/10%/120Volts and back up to 85/90%) should return the battery to normal condition AND, of course, on the first run down to 120 volts, the fuel gauge will reset to match the battery state of charge.

Antiscab's point about self-discharge to zero in 5 weeks is valid BUT he lives in a warm place, where winter lay-up is not an issue. In fact high temperatures do increase the self discharge to very high levels, even so a two hour charge every two weeks in a hot climate would solve even that problem.

During storage, I suggested a time limited two hour charge once a month. This would be sufficient to keep the battery at around 70/80% full with no possibility of overcharging. This procedure will definitely work with the modified software, it would even help to reduce the possibility of damage if used with Vectrix charger software.

Second edit.

The state of charge is evidenced by the battery voltage, 120volts = empty And 138/140volts = full. I am sure you can figure out the in between bits. The modified software gives a voltage readout, just switch on and observe the battery voltage, how easy can it get?

No point in complicating things, so I go for the simple approach.

The Laird (Telling it like it is as usual)

bm3
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

well,

its not so easy. I think what Matt wanted to tell is that the bars in the display get out of synchronization when you don't charge it for longer than 2 weeks or so because its self discharge. This is one point.
What I wanted to say is that the battery itself if its on SOC 80-100% can stay much longer without charging.
But you will have a problem with the charger and bars synchronization if you do this. This can than be solved with the interface by reducing the bars, with driving to the red lamp and charging new or with loading with a external charger.
I drive now my Vectrix since May 2011 and have no idea what is the best way in charging the battery.
Mostly I need not more than driving 10-30km distance and sometimes I need 40-50km and every time it worked for this distance.
I charge it every time I come back even after only 10 km.
I did not a special discharge extra for the NiMH cells up to today and everything works well. My idea is that every charge and discharge will reduce the lifespan of the cells. So why should I do something extra without a use for me ?
What I have build is a small simple external charger with 0,2-0,3A output out of a ring core transformer and a bridge rectifier + capacitor and from time to time I connect it over night for an EQ charge. I don't let the Vectrix charger do his EQ job. I hate this ! I don't like this high current.My old charger makes 3 A maybe 1A is much better. I do that only with my small charger.
When the scooters stands several weeks over winter I load it with the onboard charger and than connect my little charger over night. So I have synchronization of bars back again.
To connect my charger I have two extra connectors in the trunk under the seat.
I can only say that a long time EQ charge with a current only from 0,1 to 0,5 A seems to be good for the cells.

best regards

Klaus

antiscab
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Antiscab's point about self-discharge to zero in 5 weeks is valid BUT he lives in a warm place, where winter lay-up is not an issue. In fact high temperatures do increase the self discharge to very high levels, even so a two hour charge every two weeks in a hot climate would solve even that problem.

There is still the issue of the fuel guage preventing the charger from actually charging the battery - it under estimates the self discharge so eventually becomes falsely full

it is possible to fix without a can bus adapter, by triggering the red battery light, but it's harder on the battery than disconnecting the battery.

Matt

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2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

PJD
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

I am pretty skeptical about the sanity of these hardy people riding in winter. In fact, it seems insane to me.

In my area, following a snowy spell, and then fair sunny weather with temperatures that rise to about -2 in the day, the streets are now all cleared and dry, and I was tempted to ride the scooter. But, upon deciding to run the errands by car, I encountered a spot with little patch of drifted snow right at a curve, and a little later a patch of glass-smooth ice (dripping water from a bridge) right at a corner of busy intersection. Then, there are the sudden patches of spilled de-icing salt. While these would be inconsequential on a 4- or 3-wheel vehicle, they would have resulted in a wipe-out on scooter or motorcycle. The safe speed to avoid such surprises would be well less than 40 kph, impractically slow.

The only way I see riding in snow to be the least bit safe is in a climate and road maintenance where the road stays uniformly covered with squeaky-dry snow, with cinders or sand added for traction - no salt. It seems that you at least have such conditions in Sweden.

bm3
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

I avoid driving with the Vectrix if snow or ice is on the roads here in Germany.
Below -10°C cell temp the Vectrix power begins to get really poor.
But we have Vectrix drivers here who like the snow and have winter tires.
They may have a lot of fun with snow up to they are falling down some time.

MEroller
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

As for winter riding, it also has a lot to do with the state of the road surface. If there are potholes everywhere, and the road constantly winds and turns in an unpredictable manner, than PJD's comments are very valid - many potentially dangerous spots of ice or snow.
But if the roads have a smooth surface and are properly equipped with delibarate solpes at any given spot to drain water off the road, and things are usually straight or with large radii, then everything becomes far more predictable. Bridges for example are well known to being highly prone to developing and retaining icy surfaces, so when you KNOW that you can "extend your landing gear" for a moment to sense actual road holding and simply go slower and allow more room to the vehicle driving in front of you, thus taking into account the smaller coefficient of friction on the bridge.
And in Sweden you can can mount tires with nice steel spikes that will even give good grip on ice. Sadly those are not allowed in Germany... :-(

My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW

The Laird
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Antiscab's comment on the loss of fuel gauge accuracy is correct for Vectrix software.

The modified software however has 'temperature consideration' and the self discharge correction figures are set in sympathy with the temperature quoted in the file name.

In effect, I have allowed for greater losses at higher temperatures. This is NOT an exact / accurate figure BUT it ensures that the fuel gauge level drops at a rate to match the battery losses according to climate.

So when I ask a potential user "What is the highest ambient temperature that the bike will be used in?" you now know why I am asking :-)

I trust that this clarifies my earlier post.

The Laird

Mik
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

I recently left the Vectux stand unused for 6 months (maybe more), causing the battery to be discharged to the extremely low level of 6V for the entire battery.

I decided to test what happens when the first charge is done extremely slowly and used Universal Freddy to charge the battery over about a week.

Initially I used 4uF for 22 hrs, until all cells had reached the same voltage. The cells that had been discharged deeper (or even reversed) were reaching a voltage of 1.38V (stable) after a few minutes, while the better cells were only at about 200mV and rising.

After 22 hrs with 4uF / 0.15A charge the battery voltage was 140.0V with cell voltages very even around 1.37V each. I increased the charge current to 0.3A (8uF) and continued to charge for 5 days and a few hours, until the voltage had stopped rising at 144.9V and the battery temperature had risen to between 35degC and 40degC (18degC ambient). Then I turned the cooling impellers on (with the ABCool power supply), which reduced the battery temperatures to the mid-twenties and increased the voltage to 146.5V. I turned the UFreddy charger off and let the ABCool run for a few hours to cool the battery to 20degC. Unfortunately the weather was rainy, so I could not ride the Vectux right after the charge and let it stand for 3 days.

0.15A x 22hrs = 3.3Ah
0.3A x 122hrs = 36.6Ah
Total gone in: approx. 40Ah.
Temperature rise about 18degC from 18 to 36degC (when the cooling impellers were off).

After 3 days standing, I charged at 0.3A for 12hrs, which brought the voltage back up from 139.9V to 146.5V, then continued at 0.15A for 12hrs.

Then I went for a test drive within 30min of turning the charger off. The drive was on a hilly country road with 80km/h speed limit, with full throttle acceleration from 0 to 80km/h every 6-7km and about as many emergency braking simulations. Average speed was about 65-70km/h.

Result:
Good acceleration throughout the entire test drive.
The range was 33km until the first cell started to drop below 1V at 60km/h during uphill driving, and acceleration got sluggish. I managed to get home and up my steep drive way without having to reverse a cell, but it was getting tight with a drop to 0.5V in the weakest cell.

Interpretation:
The range of 33km in the first drive after a long period of inactivity is much better than what I used to get when using the stock charger with The Lairds software under similar circumstances. I don't know if this is the full capacity / range that the battery now has, or if it will improve more with further cycling. This is still the original 1997 battery with about 15000km on it.

On previous occasions the battery had not been discharge below 120V, but was very empty after months of inactivity. When the battery was recharged fast (6A) after the long break, then hard acceleration after just a few kilometres (5-10km) caused cell reversals, followed by bouncing up of the voltage when the load was removed. The usable range with normal charging (6A) used to be about 10km on the first ride IIRC, and then another 10km crawling along slowly to minimise reversals.

When charged very slowly after a long break, the power was very good for the entire range of 33km, and then there was little left in the weakest cell. No need to slowly drain the battery, just spirited driving until it was suddenly empty.

The only reason (other than the slow charge) that I think could possibly have caused the good range after first charge, is the extremely low discharge to 6V /102 = 0.05V per cell average. However, I have seen good range after a slow Freddy charge into a hibernated battery before, when the battery had still been above 115V before the charge.

I will therefore try to use a very slow charge to end NiMH battery hibernation when possible.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

ofx210p
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Thats really really interesting. Just gotta build a freddy charger.hmmmm

Had any thoughts on building and selling ?

acorless
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Mik,

I have acquired some "new" Vectrix bikes with no miles but they have been sitting in storage for a few (maybe several) years. I was told they were 2009 models but it now appears by their serial numbers that they are from 2007. I really do not have a good history on the bikes other than they are truly "new" from an ex-Vectrix dealer with the right paperwork.

I have assumed I will need to pull the battery packs apart to weed out bad cells and hope to get one or two workable NiMH packs out of the 3 bikes but do you think that your slow charge recovery charge approach is the right first step for me and maybe I can avoid alot of work? Of course, I do not have the cell level monitoring you have installed so I will be without the cell level data you refer to when you assess the recovery. I have a power supply that should allow me to do the low current controlled charge you describe.

From your description, it sounds like I should start with a full "recovery" charge before I allow the vectrix charger to engage. Other posts have talked about "bootstrapping" the battery to >90V then plugging in the charger to complete the charge. I think I buy into your logic of what seems to be a multi- day equalization process versus the typical CC / CV / EC charge over a few hours. I expect I will be sitting with starting voltages close to zero and many cells reversed.

Also, how important is it to get upgraded charger / motor controller software on the bike before I use it?

your (or others)advice welcome.

Thanks,

AC

Mik
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Mik,

I have acquired some "new" Vectrix bikes with no miles but they have been sitting in storage for a few (maybe several) years. I was told they were 2009 models but it now appears by their serial numbers that they are from 2007. I really do not have a good history on the bikes other than they are truly "new" from an ex-Vectrix dealer with the right paperwork. ...
...
...

AC

You will need to open up the battery compartments to get the batteries charged, or removed, so you might as well get someone with the appropriate skills to try the following:

Attach tabs to the negative end of cells 1, 34, 68 and 102. If you want to install them so that they can be used later on when the scooter is back together and on the road, then install a diode protected tab on 1 and 102 (for charging) and a resistor (15kohm) protected tab on 1, 34, 68 and 102 for measuring voltages.
This gives you 3 equal 34-cell-segments and all the tabs / cells needed for it are located in the top layer with relatively easy access. If these three segments have equal voltages, then they have equal numbers of dead cells in them. While it is not impossible to have exactly equal numbers of empty or failed cells in each segment, it is not very likely to occur. However, 3, 6, 9 etc cells need to be dead in order for this problem to occur.

Once you start charging your totally discharged batteries, you will see the voltages in the three segments rise. At first the segment voltages will almost certainly be different from each other, but, if you are lucky and the battery is still OK, they will be almost exactly the same after some hours of very slow charging.

I expect that after about 24-48hrs of charging at 0.15A all those cells that can recover will show voltage above 1.38V.

If the voltages in the three segments are equal, then you check if the total voltage is high enough to account for all cells in the battery. If 3 or 6 cells are dead, but distributed evenly through the 3 segments, then the battery voltage will be 1.4V x 3 = 4.2V lower than expected. Just measure a few cells in the top layer: If their voltage is 1.4V, then the total battery voltage should about 1.4V x 102 = 142.8V. If you find instead that the total voltage is 138.6V or 134.4V, then you know you have 3 or 6 equally distributed dead cells in there.

Once you have assured yourself that all cells are showing appropriate voltages during the charge, you can increase the charge current a bit. However, if you increase it to more than 0.3A, you run the risk of over-heating the battery once it is full.

If the battery is good and has around 30Ah capacity, then you will need to charge until about 40Ah or more have gone in. When the battery is near full, you will notice that the temperature starts to rise and the voltage will stop rising. It should take about 5 or 6 days until the battery is full if you charge at 0.3A.

Once it's full, disconnect the charger and let it stand for 24-48hrs, with occasional monitoring of the 3 segment voltages. They should remain equal. If some cells are dropping their voltage faster than others, the segment voltages will begin to differ (or the overall voltage will fall too far if the bad cells are evenly distributed).

The voltage at end of charge should be around 145V and 2-3 days later it should have dropped to around 140V.

While the battery cover is off, check if the fuse is the original 125A or the later 200A version. With some luck you might be able to see this without removing the battery. A small mirror might help and it will be much safer to do when the battery is still totally empty.
If the fuse has not been changed, then the battery recall / rework might also not have been done. It would be nice if you could confirm somehow if the battery rework has been done, or not.

Regarding the charger and MC software upgrade, it is very important to install the later versions, because the original software from 2008 ruins the battery. The Laird's charger software is the best, but the later stock firmware is also more gentle than the original.

Good luck with it and let us know how it goes. It might be a good idea to start a separate thread about the whole project, because there are probably quite a few Vectrix VX-1 similar to yours around, and the lessons you will learn will probably help others in similar situations.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

acorless
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Re: Winter Advice from Vectrix ...

Mik,

Thanks for the detailed reply.. Much appreciated. I am getting more confident that I will be able to recover some functionality to these batteries given their history and the availability of some spare parts. I have some additional technical questions based on your recovery descriptions but I will hold off until I am fully into the project.

I will get to see the bikes first hand next week for the first time and will use this opportunity to start a new thread as you suggested.

AC

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