Looking for some temperature sensors....

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Jonathanm
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Looking for some temperature sensors....

Dear all,
I am helping a friend with one of Matts lithium conversions and it seems the temperature sensors are causing problems and may be bad. At the moment this seems to be a show stopper as the bike has the 1st version of the Runke charger and no amount of trying we can get the charger to start. (We have upgraded the charger software to 3005...) The bike will run ok on the new batteries...

So if anybody has or knows where I could source some temperature sensors from, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks to all in advance!

Jonathan

Jack_son
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Jonathan

I used this for search term on Google. Suggest you do same, and read headlines on first 10-15 articles - that include Li battery fires, and explosions, including Boeing.

Some Li batteries have temp sensors on each cell.

Keep it safe!

EWheels EW475 eBike LiFePO4 36 V 10 AH Bat

PJD
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Typically the temperature sensors are thermistors. The thermistor is usually a little bead with no part number on it, so you need to contact the original manufacturer to determine which one to get. Thermistor specifications are not straightforward, becasue their response (delta ohm/degree) is not linear. Usually there is a base resistance specification (R at 25C), then it is either PTC ( + temp coefficient) or (more commonly) NTC ( neg. temperature coefficient), then a tolerance, then response curve specification in the form of a "series number" which varies from mfg to mfg.

I'd assume that Matt would know what the proper part is, and then it can be ordered from any of a number of internet electronic part suppliers. I use Mouser Electronics where I live in the US.

LithiumVectrix
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hey mate, get you facts straight !! Your using Lithium batteries every day of your life. Your mobile phone and laptop both have lithium rechargable batteries in them. Are you going to stop using them because one has started a fire somewhere in the world? Petrol cars catch fire more often. So often that they don't bother reporting it in the press.

PJD
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Also, the lithium ferrous-phosphate cells used for the conversion are a whole lot more abuse-proof and will not go into the thermal runaway if recharged after over-discharging like the lithium cobalt cells used in electronic stuff (and presumably those Boeing 777's). Just the same, the battery pack thermistors probably need to be working properly for the scooter to run properly.

LithiumVectrix
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hi Johnathanm,
The temperature sensors used in the VX-1 are not thermistors. You will need a replacement front or rear temperature sensor board with sensors. Your best source is from a wrecked bike.

Plug in America has a Youtube clip on battery safety with electric vehicles. they quote 250,000 gas vehicles fires per year.
http://www.pluginamerica.org/drive-electric/towtruck/

The only Vectrix I have heard of catch fire was a NI-MH bike and its on this forum.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/12671-vectrix-caught-fire-less-2-mins-after-temperature-light-came

marylandbob
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

I ran into a similar temperature sensor problem with my 2008 VECTRIX! The sensors were damaged by WATER/MOISTURE, and reported a HIGH temperature error to the control circuitry, which then acted to disable battery charging. With some difficulty, I succeeded in telephoning VECTRIX USA, and after sending them my credit card information and authorization, I obtained the "NEW AND IMPROVED" temperature sensing harnesses, complete with all sensors and new circuit boards, for BOTH batter boxes, for less than $100.00 US. Installation was labor intensive, involving the CAREFUL removal and disassembly of the battery packs, but the new sensor circuits are much better sealed against water-they seem to be covered with epoxy and lacquer. My bike works normally now!-Bob Curry

Robert M. Curry

manfred.bartz
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

If you only want to get the charger going, you can solder 10kΩ resistors to where the temperature sensors would normally be connected to the PIC microcontroller (μC) boards. That will tell the μC that the temperature is 25°C and should allow you to run the charger.

If you do want to measure the temperatures then you can use almost any garden variety thermistor with a 10kΩ resistance at 25°C. There are a few different materials for NTC thermistors. The type you want has 10kΩ at 25°C and 0.975kΩ at 100°C.

NOTE: I have serious concerns about how the original thermistors are mounted on the battery terminals. If the thermistor wiring makes contact with a battery terminal, it will at the very least fry the μC board and possibly other electronic components upstream from the μC.

Because I am doing a Vectrix conversion myself, I did a quick experiment to determine the thermistor type:

VectrixThermistorTest.jpg

The left voltmeter is connected to the thermocouple and shows °C, the other measures the NTC thermistor resistance.
Detail of the thermistor board with the thermocouple junction just below the thermistor:

VectrixThermistorCloseup.jpg

The measured values correspond closely to garden variety thermistors used in millions of products.
For example the Murata NCPxxXH103 (HX is Murata's material code) will do the job. Available from Digikey and others.

VectrixBatteryTempSensThermistorSpreadsheet.jpg

Good luck and tell us about the outcome.
--
Manfred

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Dear Manfred - thank you, and the other posters very much for these most informative posts. As far as I understand we are not that much interested in the temperature of the lithium batteries (Matt?) we only need to get the charger going. The batteries are protected by BMS modules placed on each battery.
I shall investigate your suggestion about soldering the resisters - I don't fully understand where they need to be soldered but I am sure from your post I will be able to figure it out.

Thanks to you all again!

Jonathan

antiscab
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hi Jonathan,

the problem with your temp sensors is the micros are all dead - that's why no temperature is reported at all (21 deg C is the chargers assumed value)
Worse, for some failure modes of the temp sensors, they will put "garbage data" into the CAN bus

While I was tidying my shed today i did come across a set of temp sensors - I will check to see if they are working, if they are I will send them on.

The upper temp limit of LiFePO4 cells is 65 deg C - that is for charging, discharging or doing nothing

I don't normally keep the temp sensors, unless needed to keep the charger happy, as the software hasn't yet been modded to make real use of them

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

marylandbob
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

(Duplicate, removed.)

Robert M. Curry

marylandbob
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

As I tried to state previously, VECTRIX USA can supply the 2 sets of temperature sensors, ( front and rear) in an improved, more water proof version, including the front and rear battery cable harnesses and temperature processing boards, for under one hundred dollars! (<$100.00)-my originals failed, I ordered new ones and replaced them, now OK! I found this easier than attempting to repair the old, corroded sensors and circuit boards!

Robert M. Curry

ofx210p
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

If you can EVER get vectrix USA to respond to any emails !!!

lelek62
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Dear all,

I am very encouraged by this discussion, as my 2007 vectrix went dead in March this year with a "bathot" message when it was obviously not hot.
Unfortunately about the same time Vectrix Germany (where I live) went bancrupt and I am lost without service and spare parts.
So I posted the problem on some german forums, bought a CanBus adapter (see below) and disassemble the thing until I could see the temperature sensors. They don´t look bad at all and I don´t think they became wet.
The weird thing is, that the diag software shows all 6 sensors at 60° C.

Any ideas what causes this problem, has somebody seen 6 bad sensors at the same time?
By the way, I am still using the vectrix by charging it through a isolating trasformer and a bridge rectifier which works fine but is pretty incovenient.

Thanks in advance

Erik

PS: Is there anybody with a Vectrix close to me in Southern Germany Lake Constance area?

Mik
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Dear all,

I am very encouraged by this discussion, as my 2007 vectrix went dead in March this year with a "bathot" message when it was obviously not hot.
Unfortunately about the same time Vectrix Germany (where I live) went bancrupt and I am lost without service and spare parts....
...
...
Erik

...

What a shame, they were one of the few ones that I managed to get some working spare parts from (sent to Australia). Finally got a centre stand from Vectrix Germany after years of trying other avenues.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Mik
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

...
...

Any ideas what causes this problem, has somebody seen 6 bad sensors at the same time?

This is not due to 6 dead sensors, but due to a malfunction in some part of the "translator IC" between the 6 sensors and the Canbus. The sensors just provide a temperature dependent resistance value, but the other IC's are required to translate the resistance measurement into a Canbus signal. If the signal is dead or abnormal, the temperatures of 6 temp sensors appear either as 21degC or as 60degC. I'm not sure which exact failure mode causes the 21degC or 60degC erroneous temp report on the Canbus.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

marylandbob
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

In my case, the two circuit boards attached to the temperature sensor harness were badly corroded from moisture, as were some of the sensors, so replacing the entire networks, on both battery banks, for less than $100.00 total, seemed to be a good idea, and it worked! As far as CONTACTING Vectrix, USA, --NO, I did NOT succeed with E-mail, I used the VOICE TELEPHONE, calling and finally reaching someone to negotiate the purchase with! You may wait FOREVER if you do not CALL them! ( or, as I have ALSO done, drive to the factory, IN PERSON, to conduct business!)-good luck, Bob Curry.

Robert M. Curry

lelek62
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Thanks Rober and Mik,

for your quick response.
Who and what number should I call then? I got this address and number, is this what you tried?:

Vectrix LLCMehr Infos‎
55 Samuel Barnet Boulevard
New Bedford, MA 02745, United States
+1 508-717-6510

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hello Robert,
My friend who is the owner of the bike needing the temp sensors got in touch with Vectrix USA (as per your advice)- they immediately put him onto Vectrix Europe (In Italy!) They quoted a price of €210 + shipping. Not bad! That's nearly a mark up of 300% of the price that Bob got in the states.

They really don't do themselves any favours....

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hello Robert,
My friend who is the owner of the bike needing the temp sensors got in touch with Vectrix USA (as per your advice)- they immediately put him onto Vectrix Europe (In Italy!) They quoted a price of €210 + shipping. Not bad! That's nearly a mark up of 300% of the price that Bob got in the states.

They really don't do themselves any favours....

Vectrixuwe
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Now I have more then 100 temperature sensors to sell. The set´s are build in june 2009. Also many Chargers from June 2009. The in Input gos from 80 to 270 Volt and the output from 20 to 170 Volt. I send it with software to build it in a Vectrix. It is perfekt when you createt an Li++ Vectrix. My VX-1 is burnig 3 Months ago. Now the Runkie goes out and the older ESD goes in. Because the ESD charged 9 kwh countinlus. In 6 hours the battery is full and ready to travel 200 km. 100 km with speed of 100km/h is no problem.
Every Day good ride
Uwe

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Now I have more then 100 temperature sensors to sell. The set´s are build in june 2009. Also many Chargers from June 2009. The in Input gos from 80 to 270 Volt and the output from 20 to 170 Volt. I send it with software to build it in a Vectrix. It is perfekt when you createt an Li++ Vectrix. My VX-1 is burnig 3 Months ago. Now the Runkie goes out and the older ESD goes in. Because the ESD charged 9 kwh countinlus. In 6 hours the battery is full and ready to travel 200 km. 100 km with speed of 100km/h is no problem.
Every Day good ride
Uwe

Could you give us some more precise information please? Are the chargers new ESD chargers or rebuilds? For the temp sensors do you have the boards that go with the sensors or only the sensors themselves?
Have you thought about how much you would like to sell the chargers?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Jonathan

Vectrixuwe
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hello, the Carger are original new from ESD. They are from the last charge that was build. When Vectrix in 2009 goes insolvent the items from ESD would not neet from the new owner of Vectrix. So I can sell the items now. Next week I see how many Chargers, ICM an temperature sensors stil waiting by ESD. The price for one charger is between 500 and 600 €.
Uwe

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hello, the Carger are original new from ESD. They are from the last charge that was build. When Vectrix in 2009 goes insolvent the items from ESD would not neet from the new owner of Vectrix. So I can sell the items now. Next week I see how many Chargers, ICM an temperature sensors stil waiting by ESD. The price for one charger is between 500 and 600 €.
Uwe

Hello Uwe,
Good luck with your business - however at the prices that you are asking I'm not sure how many offers you are going to have.
Jonathan

Vectrixuwe
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Oh, it is not my business to sold. I repair only scooter like Honda CN250 in my freetime and now I spend my time to help other V.drivern. I´s one charger brocken so the owner know there he can by a new one, not a yuesed. The items are sold from ESD in Germany and not from me. An new Vectrix charger cost more then 1500 $.
Uwe

Jonathanm
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Thanks I'll certainly keep it in mind as I am European based.

Kocho
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

FYI, I replaced my one faulty thermistor today. Now readings are all as they should be (before, the bad one was off by 1-2kOhm, depending on temperature, which the Vectrix considers a significant number, resulting in about 5 degree or so false reading, which was enough to light-up the red lights and stop charging).

Pics attached. To do this repair the battery needs to be disassembled, unless your faulty one is on the top of the three layers of cells, in which case you don't even need to take the battery out. Mine, of course, was at the bottom layer of the front half of the battery, so I had to take everything out and apart...

.
Damaged thermistor. The little dark square. My sensor looks a bit different from Manfred's photo, but same idea...

1.jpg

A strip with new replacement thermistors. Just one of these is needed, I ordered more as they are cheap (in case I damage or lose them - they are tiny!):

2.jpg

The part number and model of the replacement thermistors (from Digi-key). These are a bit smaller than the original ones, but should have a similar thermo-resistance curve. Need food eyesight and a steady hand to remove the old one and solder a new one:

3.jpg

If you only want to get the charger going, you can solder 10kΩ resistors to where the temperature sensors would normally be connected to the PIC microcontroller (μC) boards. That will tell the μC that the temperature is 25°C and should allow you to run the charger.

If you do want to measure the temperatures then you can use almost any garden variety thermistor with a 10kΩ resistance at 25°C. There are a few different materials for NTC thermistors. The type you want has 10kΩ at 25°C and 0.975kΩ at 100°C.

NOTE: I have serious concerns about how the original thermistors are mounted on the battery terminals. If the thermistor wiring makes contact with a battery terminal, it will at the very least fry the μC board and possibly other electronic components upstream from the μC.

Because I am doing a Vectrix conversion myself, I did a quick experiment to determine the thermistor type:

VectrixThermistorTest.jpg

The left voltmeter is connected to the thermocouple and shows °C, the other measures the NTC thermistor resistance.
Detail of the thermistor board with the thermocouple junction just below the thermistor:

VectrixThermistorCloseup.jpg

The measured values correspond closely to garden variety thermistors used in millions of products.
For example the Murata NCPxxXH103 (HX is Murata's material code) will do the job. Available from Digikey and others.

VectrixBatteryTempSensThermistorSpreadsheet.jpg

Good luck and tell us about the outcome.
--
Manfred

Vectrixuwe
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Hello, I have a pair of new temperature plates. //img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/1090124ldpbf70ztw.jpg)//img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/1090125tu9qo4fdl1.jpg)
Uwe

manfred.bartz
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Some additional info:

  1. The Murata material type is XH (there is a typo in the spreadsheet).
  2. More important, if you are looking for a compatible thermistor from different manufacturers, then the beta value is more useful. You should select a thermistor with R25 = 10kΩ and a B25/50 = 3380.

You could replace the little PCB with the thermistor on it with a bead type with wires. E.g. the Murata NXRT15XH103FA1B040 (Digikey part 490-7167-ND) ($0.50). You would need to solder some longer, flexible wires to it and be a bit creative with shrink tubing.

NXRT15XH103FA1B040_sml.JPG

Kocho
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

Yes, the type I bought is XH and the B25/50 is 3380K. Cost is $0.23 per piece, plus about $3 shipping (you can buy a lot of other small things that the same $3 shipping covers -so it is per package, not per item). See the photo of the packaging label that I posted above and here again. I will soon test if it is working in the Vectrix - when I "winterize", I plan to unplug the battery for the Winter months, but before I do it I will plug in the temp sensor bvoards to see what readings I get at various temps. So be patient - in just a couple of weeks I'll hopefully know :)

3.jpg

The specs are here: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/NCP18XH103F03RB/490-4800-2-ND/1644665

And pasted here from Digikey's web site:

NTC Thermistors

Series
NCP18

Resistance in Ohms @ 25°C
10k

Resistance Tolerance
±1%

B Value Tolerance
±1%

B0/50
-

B25/50
3380K

B25/75
-

B25/85
3434K

B25/100
3455K

Operating Temperature
-40°C ~ 125°C

Power - Max
100mW

Mounting Type
Surface Mount

Online Catalog
NCP18

Other Names
490-4800-2

Some additional info:

  1. The Murata material type is XH (there is a typo in the spreadsheet).
  2. More important, if you are looking for a compatible thermistor from different manufacturers, then the beta value is more useful. You should select a thermistor with R25 = 10kΩ and a B25/50 = 3380.

You could replace the little PCB with the thermistor on it with a bead type with wires. E.g. the Murata NXRT15XH103FA1B040 (Digikey part 490-7167-ND) ($0.50). You would need to solder some longer, flexible wires to it and be a bit creative with shrink tubing.

NXRT15XH103FA1B040_sml.JPG

Kocho
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Re: Looking for some temperature sensors....

... double post ...

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