Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

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R
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Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

My vectrix is 7 years old (15 may 07). Too many years for electric components.
I knew this day was approaching: Yesterday my vectrix ceased to operate properly, after 57.009 km of good service.
The Symptoms: a cyclic, never ending power cut that lasts a small fraction of a second , that triggers a cyclic reboot . Please have a look at the U-tube thing:

http://youtu.be/5tjbj_nbqJQ
I disconnected the charger connectors. The cycle repeats. the problem is not located in the charger. Anybody has seen that problem before?
Any thoughts will be welcome.

mpregal
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Hi R!

Sorry to read about your bike.

I have been reading the "Vectrix Dealer Training" document, and in page 34 there is a "Symptoms & Solutions" guide.
For the symptom "board instruments have abnormal behavior" it proposes "try to disconnect an re-connect the ICM", and also "Check ICM value, reprogram ICM software, replace ICM".

I hope this helps.
I will continue searching through the document for more info.

Good luck!

Mik
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

The same behavior occurs when the MC is activated (by putting the scooter into "GO" mode) while a HD headlamp is still in the higher current draw phase.

Therefore I think that this might be related to the 12V system being overloaded by something during boot-up.

Is anything plugged into the 12V outlet in the glove box?

I would try to unplug the headlight to reduce the load on the 12V system. If it boots normally then, at least you know a little more about where the problem lies.

Good luck, Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

DoItYourself
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Do you have HID Lights or some other electronics connected to 12V ? it seems to be a low power reset..

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Thanks, DIy, Mik and Mpregal for your comments.

Yesterday I could spend some time on the bike. If i turn off the head light, the continuous reboot stops, and I'm able to recharge the battery.
However the light in the Display is extremely low.

If I press the brake light or the turn light, the blue light on the display disappears and sometimes starts rebooting again.
Watch the video:

I've checked the 12v light connectors, but couldn't locate any water problem at all.
It seems like the 12V Vectrix's system supply is faulty: it is not able to supply enough energy to a simple led light.
The ICM is the devide that supplies energy to the 12v system, isn't it? Anybody has had to replace the ICM?

All the 12v BMS systems are connected to a new, independent 12v power supply. The fans of the battery system are not affected by this power shortage.

Mik
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Excellent, you now have a plausible partial diagnosis.

Double check that no additional 12V drain is present on the system.

Then, hope that someone can explain what part (and where) is producing the dwindling 12V supply.

And of course, how to fix it...

Anyway, about half-way there, I hope!

Good luck, Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

DoItYourself
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

The ICM doesn't generate 12V, it's generated by the Motor Controller :( it has a big DC-DC converter inside.
(also the charger has a dc-dc converter but is used only internally)

Do you have an HID lamp or the original one?

what i can see from videos is a Power Over Reset of the dashboard.. you must check with a tester the 12V on the connector of the dashboard or the ICM.. or directly on the Motor Controller.

I think the problem is the DC-DC that must be changed (and is not easy to do...) :(

DoItYourself
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

#removed double post#

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Do you have an HID lamp or the original one?

The original one.
The ICM doesn't generate 12V, it's generated by the Motor Controller :( it has a big DC-DC converter inside.

What you suggest is pausible. I'll test my ICM in another Bike: If it works properly, it is going to be the MC DC-DC.

Replacing the MC is going to be quite expensive. Do you think is it possible to add an external DC-DC and turn it on with a 12V relay supplied by what is left of the integrated DCDC on the MC board?
Anybody can locate the 12v port on the MC to test it?

RuFuS
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Hi!

We (FuelFree Motos) are scheduling a trip around Europe to late May/June but nothing is decided yet.

By now the possible final destination would be Switzerland (Portugal » Spain » France » Switzerland) but other destinations are being considered...what i can tell you, is that nothing is decided yet and we are not yet sure if it will happen but it's a possibility.

If you want, we can check your vectrix if you are really interested.

Next year we will have much more time to schedule this event a lot of months before...

Best Regards,
FuelFree Motos Team
www.fuelfreemotos.wordpress.com

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Hi rufus,
Thank you for your offer; yes, all possible help is welcome!. I've told about you to Alexandre, he is interested in meeting you. Maybe be can meet together in the same place, so we save you some time.

About my Vectrix: I've tested my ICM in another vectrix. Works perfectly. I'm not sure at all, but all evidence locates the problem in the MC's DC-DC. Fortunately I've found another Vectrix with it's front smashed by an accident. I'm buying that MC to replace my faulty one.

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Hello everyone, I have the same problem, and I also appeared Up Rst.
I began to do so after replacing the DC / DC Converter because it was broken long ago. I still have not found the problem.

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Hi sj4x4,

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11368-message-rst#new

uP RSt = microprocessor reset. It is a normal random error. Nothing to worry about.

How did you replace the DCDC?
I'll replace the entire MC board, hope the problem will be solved.

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Replacing the MC partially solved the problem.
Everything seems ok, but now the MC fan does not spin at correct speed, it is idling ant very low speed.
Without it, the MC will overheat and be destroyed.
Any ideas?

Mik
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

I suppose you have already tried to reinstall the MC firmware?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

hi Mik, Still didn't have time, but I want to:

1-test another fan
2- Reload MC firmware

if not successful, I will use DC Fan control with remote temperature sensor.

I need your help, Do you think this device:

FanAmp_49a177d428293.jpg
http://www.thewatercoolingshop.co.uk/mcubed-hfx-220-fan-amp-fan-controller-hfx-220.html
Powered by the 60W 12V impellers port will be able to spin the MC fan at full speed?

sj4x4
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

I just replaced the DC / DC and not all of the MC. When I get the message UPRST the rear wheel locks.

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

I just replaced the DC / DC and not all of the MC. When I get the message UPRST the rear wheel locks.

Hi sj4x4, I'm afraid it is the first time I've heard about a problem like yours.
How did you replaced the DC-DC? That information may help other people in the future.

sj4x4
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

But R,

if you have to restart the cycle while driving what happens? the bike turns off? does not have a stop?

I ordered the new DC / DC, I unsoldered the old and the new welded

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

if you have to restart the cycle while driving what happens? the bike turns off? does not have a stop?

I had it restarted it at 90 km/h due to an twist grip error, runs fine again. you don't need to stop.

I ordered the new DC / DC, I unsoldered the old and the new welded

many questions arouse...
Where did you order it?
What brand and speccs is that dc-dc you purcahsed?
where is it placed on the MC?
was it difficult to replace?
many thanks in advance.
sj4x4
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Order on vicor Siteweb.
spec:
150VDC 200W In
12VDC 150W Out

If u see ur MC u see easy it.

Do u need powerful welder.

Mik
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Do you think this device:

FanAmp_49a177d428293.jpg
http://www.thewatercoolingshop.co.uk/mcubed-hfx-220-fan-amp-fan-controller-hfx-220.html
Powered by the 60W 12V impellers port will be able to spin the MC fan at full speed?

The description sounds as if the fan will be either on or off. You can set how fast it runs when it is on, but it will not be variable speed like the standard Vectrix MC cooler fan.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

hempev
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Order on vicor Siteweb.
spec:
150VDC 200W In
12VDC 150W Out

If u see ur MC u see easy it.

Do u need powerful welder.

Vicor is military-grade equipment, as well as military-grade price! It should outlive the scooter.

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Thanks sj4x4, i'll buy one and try to recover the old MC.

Mik, from the description I understand:

The fan is ALWAYS ON.
Minimum normal speed is manually set with a dial.
Temperature that triggers FULL speed is set by second dial.

It is a two speed fan regulator. Will it do the cooling work?

Additionally connection of an, included, temperature sensor is possible. This allows automatic fan speed adjustment according to the temperature. The control curve can be adjusted using two dials on the PCB, the one sets on which voltage the fan should run in standard operation (between 0,8 and 11,8V), the other one sets the temperature above which the fan or pump should run at 12V .
Mik
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

Thanks sj4x4, i'll buy one and try to recover the old MC.

Mik, from the description I understand:

The fan is ALWAYS ON.
Minimum normal speed is manually set with a dial.
Temperature that triggers FULL speed is set by second dial.

It is a two speed fan regulator. Will it do the cooling work?

Additionally connection of an, included, temperature sensor is possible. This allows automatic fan speed adjustment according to the temperature. The control curve can be adjusted using two dials on the PCB, the one sets on which voltage the fan should run in standard operation (between 0,8 and 11,8V), the other one sets the temperature above which the fan or pump should run at 12V .

I would determine this experimentally by driving the existing fan with a variable voltage supply, measuring the current draw at voltages up to 12VDC.
However, it sounds like the device wants to regulate the voltage, so it probably expects to be supplied with at least 12V at all times. It might malfunction when the Vectrix MC sends a voltage lower than 12V.

Using a temp sensor would only work if the temp sensor is located in a really good spot. I'm not sure that can be done easily, because it would be squashed between the metal plates. You might have to create a cavity for the sensor so that it measures the temperature of the metal plate that the fan is screwed to. And the sensing and responding needs to be fast.

I would first try to get the original equipment going somehow.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

It might malfunction when the Vectrix MC sends a voltage lower than 12V.

Good point. The MC supply is useless, so I'm planning to use the MC FAN controller on one channel of the 12v impellers supply.

The other impeller channel will supply energy to four secondary fans, with a 12v to 7.5v Step down converter.

That MC FAN controller uses Molex plug. I need to convert 12v to Molex (12v and 5V)...

Using a temp sensor would only work if the temp sensor is located in a really good spot.

True. As you point out, it is not easy to place the sensor. I was thinking to program the board to activate full speed as soon as the sensor reads 35 degree celsius. next move will be to place water cooling system, but that demands plenty money
R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

My vectrix is alive again!
We discovered that the encoder refused to calibrate properly through scooterdiag's request command. Visual inspection of the encoder revealed severe damage in the lower chip-set, only half encoder board was working. This caused the motor-controller fan to idle permanently at low speed (we still don't understand why, but in master's The Laird opinion, this makes sense).
Replacing the encoder solved the problem: the MC fan recovered variable speed.
The Fanamp board now is used to power a secondary set of fans, which help to cool down the MC.

IMG-20140910-WA0044.jpg
IMG-20140912-WA0021.jpg

With the vectrix back to road, another question aroused:
I have two vectrix, one NIMH with original MC build in 2007.
Another vectrix whose replaced MC was build in 2011.
Both with same firmware MC1014b.
The V's NIMH MC 2007 fan run at normal speed.
The V's MC 2011 fan run at half speed. We tested both fans in both vectrix, the result is the Same. Vectrix INC have been doing hardware changes in the Chargers and the Motor-controllers. And every hardware version need to match their specific Sub-firmware version. For instance, A NIMH vectrix With

Runke V20-V21 need a Motor-controller firmware MC 1021/002253/01
Runke V30-V31 need a Motor-controller firmware MC 1021/002253/23
The runke version is printed on a side of the gold Box...

The second and third number is displayed when the firmware is going to be uploaded, but when installed, only the first number is displayed... this is a real mess!:-(

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

After one year, my vectrix is still fully functional (I,m crossing fingers!).
The old MC turned out to be a dubious state of the art sculpture (yes, a heavy doorstop!), and was left on a shelve. Recently a friend told me he has a damaged MC with chipset issues. He assumed that the board is irrecoverable but the IGBTS and the DC-DC are both in good condition. We decided to recover my board with his DC-DC, and resurrect that old board.

When comparing both boards together, the first thing that caught my eye is that extra daughter board to fix the famous standby energy drain. Of course, my old board does not have this upgrade, just an empty spot.

The newer MC from my friend:
mc-1 IMG_20150313_200752.jpg
mc-2 IMG_20150313_200752.jpg
The "gap" in my old MC
MC-3 IMG_20150313_201215.jpg
MC-4 IMG_20150313_201215.jpg

I,m wondering if my old board can be safely upgraded with that daughter board...

Now comes the interesting part. The staff at Vectrix 3.0 (vectrixparts) explained how to test the DC-DC. These guys are very helpful, thank you P&M!. http://vectrixparts.com/

Just put a wire in the connector as described in the picture.
MC5 IMG_20150313_195412.jpg

Then power the MC with the battery. With a voltmeter measure the pins as shown in the picture. The good DC-DC displayed 11.8V, the damaged DC-DC was only capable of 5.40V
MC-6 MG_20150313_195446.jpg
MC-7 MG_20150313_195446.jpg

This is the back side of the MC. The smaller metal box is the DC-DC.

mc-8 IMG_20150313_200520.jpg

The box is soldered to the main board by 9 pins, de-soldering them requires a powerful de-solder.
MC-9 IMG_20150313_200441.jpg
MC10 IMG_20150313_201215.jpg

We expect to have a proper tool soon to swap the dc-dc.

Edit: Xvectrix explained in another post why the encoder affected the mc fan speed. Below 3 km/h (if I remeber correcly) the fan is not allowed to spin at full speed, in order to reduce fan Noise. If the encoder is partially damaged, it seems taht the system does not activate the "normal mode"

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot
israndy
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

the first thing that caught my eye is that extra daughter board to fix the famous standby energy drain.

Crazy, how famous can it be if I have never heard of that. I know I was upset that I couldn't just plug my V in and have it charge w/o losing the efficiency of running electric as it continues to draw power after charging. Since then I have figured out to set the charge delay so it will finish charging just as I walk out to get on the bike and go to work. But on days I don't take the bike but forget to unplug I loose all the savings by having it plugged in all day.

-Randy

Also own a 2018 Tesla Model 3 and a 2000 Honda Hybrid Insight

R
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Re: Dead Vectrix: Continous reboot

The daughter board fixes motor-controller's drain, not the charger's drain. If you want to save energy, try a timer triggering a relay to deactivate the plug, it does the job.

temporizador-electromecanico-25580-3000447.jpg
Relays_DIN_600085_800.jpg

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