New VX-1 Charging Question

50 posts / 0 new
Last post
Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
New VX-1 Charging Question

Question about charging my new VX-1. I just got a new (125 miles on the odometer) '09 Vectrix VX-1 from the auction over the weekend. It came with an ESD charger, like my old bike. And, like my old bike, I think it has a NiMh battery> I say "I think", because I don't know for sure: the auction description said "Lead Acid" and I have seen photos of Lead-Acid VX-1s in the factory. I have not opened it up yet, so I don't know for sure (other that it is not a Li battery, most likely), but since it does not feel heavier than my other bike and the capacity I think is better than what a Lead Acid battery of the same weight as NiMh would give. I assume I do have a regular NiMh battery pack.

Having charged the new bike only a few times so far, I'm still trying to figure out in what condition the battery is. The two bikes are both fitted with the same version of Larid's firmware but they seem to charge differently from each other.

The old bike charges quicker. It exits the CC cycle usually by the end of 4 hours or so (total, including the CP cycle), due to the voltage threshold being reached. So it spends only a couple of hours in the CC cycle, usually. It may even begin to warm-up by one or two degrees at the end of the CC cycle. When it enters the EQ cycle after that, it warms-up as expected, but not terribly so - perhaps 3-5 degree above ambient. At the end of the charging process it usually ends-up with 3-5 bars below full (due to the lower capacity of the battery, has some bad cells I guess).

The new bike charges for longer periods of time. I charged it twice from empty (0 bars, 120V while riding) so far and both times it spent 4.5 hours in the CC cycle at 144V (target is 146V). Then it entered the 1 hour EQ cycle, where the voltage did not go up any more (target is still 146, but the bike stays steady at 144 for the full hour of EQ). And the bike does not warm-up during EQ. So I'm thinking that the new bike has a "good" battery with capacity higher than the "bad" battery on my old bike. The range on the new one is better, so that's a no-brainer to figure out that its battery is better.

My question is this. Because apparently one charging cycle from 0 bars is not enough to fill-up the battery fully (only goes to about 13 bars), do you think it is because it does not get enough current during the full charging time? Or is there something else going on? If the former, what would you say is the right thing to do? Ask the Laird for a different software for the larger capacity new battery? Or can I just unplug the bike after the end of charge, then plug it again to top-off?

Or is my thinking wrong somehow? The attached photo is at the beginning of the EQ cycle as I had to go out and did not let it complete, but it would have stayed at 144V and 25 degree C during the entire cyce (at least it did on the previous EQ charge yesterday).

Thanks!

kingcharles
kingcharles's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Monday, August 17, 2009 - 08:41
Points: 408
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

It sounds like you are lucky and have bought a bike with a healthy pack.
Bearing in mind that the bike probably sat in the Vectrix warehouse for years you should probably just keep on riding the bike often and the battery will recondition itself over time. Just be patient.
Remember to only charge shortly before riding and enjoy your great bike!

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

kingcharles
kingcharles's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Monday, August 17, 2009 - 08:41
Points: 408
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Can you post the VIN number?
Maybe it gives a clue on the production date and we can conclude the battery type.

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Made in November 2008 as an '09 model. The VIN is SZCA1SAS39A0025xx

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

After 6+ hours of charging (starting from 135V / 1 bar at rest), it barely got over half way full. Stayed again at 144V and ambient temp of 25C until the end of the 1 hour EC. Thoughts?

I think it needs considerably more current/time in the CC stage to fill-up from empty in one charge. I normally would not drain it fully every time, but with the hot weather lately I try to avoid charging at work, so I am making a roundtrip on one home charge where it is some 10 cooler in my garage...

See image below - shows that there are just over 5 minutes remaining on the 1 hour EQ cycle (which usually follows a 4.5 hours of CC and in this case, about 45 minutes of CP time, and a couple of minutes of Tr break time, for a total of over 6 hours this morning)...

Not fully charging in 6 hours

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

After 6+ hours of charging (starting from 135V / 1 bar at rest), it barely got over half way full. Stayed again at 144V and ambient temp of 25C until the end of the 1 hour EC. Thoughts?

135v at rest is pretty much half charged

your issue is when you have a fuel guage set to 1 bar, the battery was actually half full

you have two options:

1) use your usb-can cable to manually set the fuel guage to full (this is what I would do)

or

2) ride the bike until the voltage starts getting below 120v while riding, then set the fuel guage to 0 with the can adapter

you could actually do both, as you would then be able to see what your batteries actual capacity is before fully charging, and while out riding you will have some idea of how much you used.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Matt,

I may try resetting the gauge. I did ride it gently to a point where it would be at 120V at 25mph on flat road. Then, when I got home, the voltage rose at rest a few Volts. I then lifted the rear wheel and while fiddling with balancing my rear wheel, I drained it to 120 at rest (it did not go below 120 in the process, while the wheel was rotating). At this point, the gauge was showing nothing, 0 bars.

What I described in the previous posts was the charge that followed - I could not fill up the bars, but, unlike my old bike with a weaker battery, the voltage did not rise above 144V and the temperature did not raise either. So I'm guessing that the cells never fully filled-up. If they had, wouldn't they start to heat-up? And the voltage would go to 146?

I'll see how it behaves over the next few weeks. I'm just glad that the new battery seems noticeably better than my old one - 25 mile roundtrip, with about 15 of them at or near top speed, with a few bars left to spare at the end, is more than my older bike can muster and a lot more usable to me, because now I can comfortably do my round-trip commute and not need to take the back roads or worry if it will take me back home.

antiscab
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 23:55
Points: 1686
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

If you started charging when the bars were at 0 and the battery voltage was at 120v, then don't reset the fuel gauge

It's not good for the battery to heat up at end of charge, the fact that your old battery did means it was wearing out

145v is plenty full, especially at 6A, more so at lower current

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

But how do you top-balance without heating-up a bit? I don't think a couple of degrees should be too bad during low-current EQ stage, no?

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Good People,

It is always better to ask the questions of those who can provide the answers, this avoids speculation and incorrect answers :-)

Just been looking at the forum and saw the post.

The questions asked by Kocho are all valid and as an engineer you want answers.

I was unaware that you too are an engineer which is why I didn't get involved in detailed explanations. My qualifications are in Electronics Engineering, (Radio / T.V. Closed Circuit T.V. Security Systems, Industrial Electronics), I have done a limited amount of computer programming and I have made a hobby of battery charging and electric transport.

Now, this battery charging.
The intention here is to bring the (NiMH) battery up to around 80% as quickly as possible and then to finish the charge at a current level at which the cells can convert all/most of the current to chemical energy, i.e. no heating.

By experiment, the charge rate of 6 amps (C.P.) gave the best result i.e. minimum time to a 80% without any heating effects. This was followed by a 'Top-up' charge (the C.C. stage) of 2.4 amps to complete the charge.

Protections are used.
Voltage cut off (C.P.) at 144volts input (current/time) limited to 24 ah. Temp limit at Ambient + 5 degrees. Time limited to 4.0 hrs.

At C.C. - Voltage cuts off at 147volts. input (current/time) limited to 8 ah. Temp as above and Time limited to 4.0 hrs.

There is a temperature compensation built into the programme whereby as the temperature drops the output voltages rise and visa versa. This is centred on 21 degrees C where all initial settings are made. Obviously this does not work if no temperature sensors are present, in this case a 'default temperature is used and the bike remains usable. Better get those sensors fixed or overcharge in Summer and undercharge in Winter will result.

There should be a short Cool Off (C.O.) of 5 to ten minutes at the end of the charge.

I have made an assumption that the battery never gets completely empty and that a 5% to 10% charge always remains. I also intend that the battery never gets completely full, the intended 'Full' being about 90% to 95% of capacity, this also is to improve the longevity of the battery.

I have also made the (reasonable) assumption that, if the battery (all cells) temperature is kept even throughout then there should be little imbalance generated. The fans therefore are set to run at all times when the bike is in use and for a short (ten minute) period following use. Any minimal imbalance will be compensated for during the Gentle C.C. stage and, so far, this has proved to be the case. Equalising, as a separate stage, is no longer necessary and has been cancelled.

In order to keep the fuel gauge and battery contents in some kind of synchronisation I have arranged for the fuel gauge to be emptied when the bike is switched on AND the battery voltage is less than 130 volts. This has the effect that the fuel gauge only fills up to the capacity of the battery, whatever that might be. Therefore as the battery ages and capacity drops the gauge will show that by filling only to the battery capacity.

All of this is arranged following many hours of testing and, has to my knowledge been successful.

There are many ways to charge a battery, I have chosen this way as the best under all foreseeable circumstances.

These 'Modified' charger files all work in conjunction with the old 114b Motor controller (62mph limit) they will not work correctly with any other MC files. Please don't try mixing and matching these files IT SIMPLY WON'T WORK CORRECTLY.

(The latest modified files are designated, ESG6A25V.HEX the '25' being the temperature limit figure for that particular file.)

If you are using the 'modified' software and your battery is not following the pattern described above, then consider that your battery may have weak cells or is in some way 'damaged'. The software you are using is also being used by many other people and they are not reporting any problems which might indicate a fault in the programming. If you are getting desperate, then contact me for help.

Lithium Batteries are different.
The variations I am supplying for the many variants of Lithium batteries are all purpose designed and are not interchangeable with NiMH charger files. It makes for a lot of work but is also interesting.

One last point Always use the 'old' Diagnostics Programme Version 2.1 Later Diagnostic programmes are not compatible with the older Vectrix systems and can and have caused trouble.

I hope that this answers most (all?) of the questions which you have raised and that you now have a better understanding of what is being done.

The Laird,
Trying to keep you all informed and happy :-)

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Sandy,

You wrote (more or less) that "equalization is not needed and has been cancelled". Do you mean that the modified charger firmware is no longer supposed to enter the EQ stage? I got mine directly from you this Spring. I'm running it on my two bikes and it most definitely likes to enter an EQ stage after the CC stage (on both bikes). I don't usually let it go through with it, though. When I do let it do it, usually the EQ lasts 1 hour (sometimes much shorter, like 5 minutes). And my CC stage is 4.5 hours, not 4 like you mention above. Do I have an outdated version of your firmware?

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Sandy,

You wrote (more or less) that "equalization is not needed and has been cancelled". Do you mean that the modified charger firmware is no longer supposed to enter the EQ stage? I got mine directly from you this Spring. I'm running it on my two bikes and it most definitely likes to enter an EQ stage after the CC stage (on both bikes). I don't usually let it go through with it, though. When I do let it do it, usually the EQ lasts 1 hour (sometimes much shorter, like 5 minutes). And my CC stage is 4.5 hours, not 4 like you mention above. Do I have an outdated version of your firmware?

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho,

In a word, YES.

As you may or may not know, there are many versions of the modified software in use worldwide, and improvements have been ongoing since I began this work.

However, all of the modified software is an improvement on the Vectrix charger programming mainly because I wasn't constrained by the requirements of an overenthusiastic sales force and therefore I was /am free to do the job as I wish.

That you do have an earlier version is not necessarily going to cause trouble. As you know, I have left some 5% to 10% of the capacity unused at the top of the charge, so the effect of the EQ is unlikely to be detrimental.

If you are unhappy in some way with the modified software provided, then it would be better to contact me directly with your concerns. Certainly, if the software is causing trouble then it would indeed be proper to warn everyone via the forum.

I am endeavoring to answer your questions via e-mail.

The Laird

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Just to clarify - the software does NOT seem to be causing problems. This bike has some issue with charging (specifically figuring out when it is fully charged) even with the original software. Latest theory is that somehow it is not aware of how much has been pumped into the battery, so the cutoffs during charging are from voltage and temperature and time (not from counting how much electricity has been put in during the charge). And the gauge does not reflect the actual charge put in.

New info: when using the latest original firmware from Vectrix, charging partially fills up the battery bars, but then they completely disappear when I start the bike. With the Laird's charging firmware and matching controller firmware, while it still would not fill up the bars during charging, at least the bars stayed on after the charge and would count town during use as expected and accurately.

I'll keep the forum posted as I experiment. I'll keep the forum posted as I experiment further (will buy a KillaWatt to see how much it actually draws from the wall). But ideas and suggestions are welcome in the meantime.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

OK. There are two theories at the moment that I need to check:

(1) The battery capacity is low, hence the battery gauge does not fill-up and the CP charge ends very quickly (about 1.5 hours from empty on the Laird's firmware at 6A, faster on the OEM firmware, which uses a higher current)

(2) The charger (or some other component) has some issue counting the Ah pumped into the battery

For theory #1 to be true, upon a complete charge with 1/2 the bars full, I should only be able to travel about 1/2 the distance my other bike travels with full bars. However, I can travel longer with the "1/2" full bike than I can with the other bike. So the battery seems to have higher capacity than the battery meter would indicate.

Theory #2 is looking more likely at this point, because (with OEM firmware) the bars disappear as soon as I turn the bike on (but it is well charged and can travel its full distance as usual, all the time showing 0 bars). However, something is iffy - the voltage seems to be measured correctly during the charge and discharge - if I let the charging process complete according to voltage cut-offs, there is no temp rise, so despite the super-long charging times needed to raise the voltage during the CC stage, the battery is not being overcharged (if it was, it would be heating-up) ...

So, somehow, the voltage on this bike seems to raise pretty quick during the CP portion of the charge, but then stays virtually constant during the CC stage for many hours... I don't understand why the voltage would stay constant (at 144V) for hours at 3A charge and not raise a bit faster, where it raises so quickly at 6A... Thoughts?

Keep you posted...

Archi13
Archi13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 month ago
Joined: Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 14:31
Points: 54
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho, Have you try to change the value of the set fuel gauge with ScooterDiag,

I use scooterdiag 2.1 and you can set the fuel gauge to 0 when the battery are empty with the tab MC/Charger write 0 in a scare[set fuel gauge] and send and when the battery are full you write 255 and send.
Scooterdiag Fuelgauge 0.jpg
fuelgauge 255.jpg

Regards, Archi13.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Archi,

When the battery is mostly empty, mine reads some value around 30. I've set the empty battery value to 0 a couple of times, when the battery is empty, but it comes back as whatever it was before a few seconds later. Today it was 27, I set it to 0, and it came back a few seconds later as 27. Is this how yours is behaving? I have not tried to set the high value - will try tomorrow after a full charge.

Got a Kill A Watt hooked-up to the timer now. Hopefully the timer will start the charge early in the morning, with the Kill A Watt tracking the electricity consumption before I wake up. And by noon or so the charge cycle I estimate should be complete and I'll see what the KWh consumed is and what the bars say... I'll hopefully be able to keep an eye as the charge progresses and keep track of how much juice gets pumped in the battery during each stage of the charging cycle.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

This morning, after about 1h and 5 minutes of CP charging, the CP stage completed at the target 143V. The value of the battery was still 27 in ScooterDiag, just like yesterday when it was empty (at around 127V at rest). What does that mean?

Also, during CP the bike draws 8.27A measured vs. 6 displayed. Kill a Watt says it draws 984W during CP and that it used 1.07KWh of power for the roughly one hour of charging. Bars on the display went from 0 to 4.

CC charging consumes 375W and 3.17A measured vs. 3A displayed.

I'm still charging. Will update with more data when done...

Edit: now, after 4.5 hours total charging (approx. 1h CP and the rest at CC), I have 8 bars (one bar below half) filled. Power from the grid is measured at 2.38KWh. Voltage on the bike shows 144 (as it has for most of the CC stage, target/top being 146 on the display). Battery temp has been constant at about 25C for the entire time (CP and CC).

Edit 2: now, after another 1.5 hours the EC stage is completed. After 6h overall time charging, it still shows 8 bars, 2.83KWh used. Charging current during EC is 2.4A actual (1.5 on the bike display). Temperature steady at 25C (1-2 degree above ambient all the time). Again, keep in mind this is with the Laird's firmware, so don't compare with times for the OEM firmware. Temperature is still steady, voltage remained at 144 almost until the end, now shows 145 on the display after the charge completed.

Thoughts? If 2.8KWh were used it means probably 2.4KWh or less went into the battery, assuming 80% overall efficiency of the charging process (no idea if it is that high, the battery charging efficiency is temp-dependent, and don't know how efficient the charger is). But, because the temp and voltage are not rising, I'm guessing there is more unused capacity in the battery (partially charged by this cycle). I'm still puzzled - is there more capacity in the battery, which I can fill with a second charge cycle back to back? Battery was pretty empty when I started, and assuming it is a good one, it should take at least 3KWh (but it takes about 2-2.4KWh based on the above observation, because the charging cycle ends due to time limits on the CC and EC stages.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

What do you make of the differences between my 2 bikes? I'm attaching 4 screen shots from ScooterDiag. Specifically, the "Av Battery Capacity" (on screenshots 1) and the "Charge Amp Hours" (on screenshot 2) are very different. And the "Minimum Battery Voltage" is also different: 102 on the old bike vs. 113 on the new bike.

Both bikes have exactly the same firmware right now. I wonder if the charge cycles reset with firmware upgrades or not? I think they do, because the new bike has fewer cycles than I put on it. The old bike has just under 500 charge cycles, half of them deep - that also does not make sense: I changed its firmware in April, and since then have put about 1,500 miles on it...

At the time I took these screenshotstoday, I had ridden each bike from well charged at 144V down to 125V when coasting (the new one has recovered a few volts before I took the measurements, so it shows 128V).

Also, what does the "restart battery capacity measurement" button do?

New Bike:
new bike 2.JPG

Old Bike:
old bike 2.JPG

New Bike:
new bike 1.JPG

Old Bike:
old bike 1.JPG

Archi13
Archi13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 month ago
Joined: Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 14:31
Points: 54
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho, you must switch on the read of the set fuel gauge for the correct value, and have you try to send the value 255 after the full charge?

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello good people.

Once again someone is making a meal of a simple problem, not only that but they are implying that the modified software is not doing it's job properly.

Well, everyone is entitled to his / her opinion BUT they are not entitled to use erroneous and incomplete information when commenting on the results of the work of others.

Now, this 'problem' that Kocho thinks that he has.

Quote:-

"When the battery is mostly empty, mine reads some value around 30. I've set the empty battery value to 0 a couple of times, when the battery is empty, but it comes back as whatever it was before a few seconds later. Today it was 27, I set it to 0, and it came back a few seconds later as 27. Is this how yours is behaving? I have not tried to set the high value - will try tomorrow after a full charge". Unquote.

Kocho is using an incompatible version of the diagnostics software and although it will 'set' the fuel gauge (the bars) it will not 'read' the gauge. It also puzzles me that, despite explaining on numerous occasions, that the fuel gauge is re-set to zero automatically when the bike is switched on when the battery voltage is less than 130 volts, he still has the urge to 'play' with the gauge setting.

Quote:-

"This morning, after about 1h and 5 minutes of CP charging, the CP stage completed at the target 143V. The value of the battery was still 27 in ScooterDiag, just like yesterday when it was empty (at around 127V at rest). What does that mean?". Unquote.

What it means Kocho, is that the battery is knackered / kaput / low capacity. Your measured '27' is invalid (wrong version of Scooter Diags), it would be more useful if you had told us that there were 3 or 4 bars on the fuel gauge.

Quote:-

"Also, during CP the bike draws 8.27A measured vs. 6 displayed. Kill a Watt says it draws 984W during CP and that it used 1.07KWh of power for the roughly one hour of charging. Bars on the display went from 0 to 4." Unquote.

The bike draws 8.27amps, measured where? at the charger input (A.C.) or output, (D.C.)? If at the input (A.C.) what was the power factor?
The 984 watts for 1hr 5minutes equates to 1.062 kWhrs, What is the problem here?

Bars on the display went from 0 - 4, again absolutely spot on correct, what don't you understand?

Quote:-

"Edit, now, after 4.5 hours total charging (approx. 1h CP and the rest at CC), I have 8 bars (one bar below half) filled. Power from the grid is measured at 2.38KWh. Voltage on the bike shows 144 (as it has for most of the CC stage, target/top being 146 on the display). Battery temp has been constant at about 25C for the entire time (CP and CC)". Unquote.

By calculation this exactly to be expected, so once again, What is the problem?

Quote:-

"Edit 2: now, after another 1.5 hours the EC stage is completed. After 6h overall time charging, it still shows 8 bars, 2.83KWh used. Charging current during EC is 2.4A actual (1.5 on the bike display). Temperature steady at 25C (1-2 degree above ambient all the time). Again, keep in mind this is with the Laird's firmware, so don't compare with times for the OEM firmware. Temperature is still steady, voltage remained at 144 almost until the end, now shows 145 on the display after the charge completed". Unquote.

Here we go again. 'Another 1.5 hrs charge' how much time at C.C and how much at E.C.? (E.C. is the 'cooloff' at 1.5 amps). We have more quotes of 2.4A 'actual' (current). Measured actually with what? Temperature looks good, no heating effects.

The bit I don't like. "keep in mind this is with the Laird's firmware,". Right, so are you suggesting that the Lairds firmware is faulty and if so, wouldn't it be far more useful to deal with him directly?

Quote:-

"The temperature is still steady, voltage remained at 144 almost until the end, now shows 145 on the display after the charge completed". Unquote.

Exactly what you would expect at the end of a successful charge, or have I missed something?.

Kocho, this is not the first time you have given me cause to be offended. I have tried to explain what is wrong and you have ignored my comments. You say that you are an engineer, well I doubt that. Engineers have a good sense of logic and can't work successfully without it. You refuse to believe what I have told you, so to save others from repeating my failure to educate you,

I will tell you one last time.

Your battery is faulty. The modified software is doing exactly what it designed to do which is to protect your battery (in this case from you). The failure of the bars to fill up is totally down to the battery's lack of capacity (the battery is knackered / Faulty / Kaput).

For the information of the forum's readership, I will now tell you all that Kocho has been badgering me to allow him to collaborate in my programming work. He tells me that he is an engineer, He tells me that he is in 'software'.

I will tell you all that I wouldn't let him loose on this programming, his lack of knowledge on Battery charging and battery technology is appalling. His failure to understand explanations and his lack of logic are worrying. I have already spent many hours answering his queries / questions only to find him airing those same questions and his (lack of) knowledge and ability on this forum.

Kocho, please don't e-mail me again, I have put you on my banned list. I really haven't the time to waste, There are others willing to be helped and who are prepared to listen and my time is precious to me and them.

To everyone else out there, I regret having to write in this manner BUT I have always defended my name and ability when pushed too far, My apologies to anyone who feels offended by this post, it was/is not my intention to offend but merely to explain my case.

I will remind everyone. The only diagnostic programmes that are fully compatible with the Early VX1 are the versions 2.0 and 2.1 (and most reliable when used with Windoze XP). I can supply both versions of Diags software.

Having his patience tried sorely and wishing peace to all sensible men and women,

The Laird.

Telling it like it is yet again.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Sandy, I see a behavior that does not match the expected outcome - is it too much to ask why? No one is implying that it is or it isn't your software that's causing the problem, let's be clear on this! The same type of behavior is observed with the stock software. I want to understand what is causing it.

Take a step back and read my messages. Don't make assumptions without basis, all right? The ScooterDiag version being "incompatible"? How do you know? It happens to be V2.1, from November 2008 and YOU gave it me, thank you very much! What makes you say it is not working properly and that it is "incompatible" (and with what)? The battery being "kaput"? How do you know? Why exactly? If you don't want to explain yourself fine, but if you can tell me specifically why you think the battery is bad - it will be helpful.

And no, the software is not protecting the battery from me. I'm not the bad guy here, I'd like to think. I offered you collaboration off-line, online you imply I'm an idiot somehow, who is on top of it apparently being a moron trying to tarnish your good name and "trying your patience"... Thanks!

I do appreciate you sharing your work with me an others and I've thanked you publicly and privately for it. Why? Not because I think you are a nice guy (you may or may not be, I don't know you). But because your software works better FOR ME than the one that came from the factory. There is no need to be so touchy and jump up every time anyone has a question that includes the name "Laird" in it.

So, again, a simple question: why does my new bike take about 2x as long to absorb the same amount of electricity as my other bike? Why is the voltage raising so quickly during the initial CP stage but not moving an inch for hours during the CC stage? Ask me for more information specifically if you need it or if I did not provide it clearly enough in previous messages.

Thanks!

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho, you must switch on the read of the set fuel gauge for the correct value, and have you try to send the value 255 after the full charge?

Archi, what do you mean "switch on the read"? If you mean click on the Read button? I did that. I also Sent 0 at the beginning of the charge on an empty battery (a few seconds later the value resets itself back to whatever was in that box before I sent the 0) .

I'll try to also send a 255 at the end of a charge next time I charge fully.

Also, there is a "Reset Battery Capacity" button - any idea what does it do and when to use it? And what is the meaning of the value of the battery capacity and how is it measured?

X Vectrix
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 05:20
Points: 298
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Kocho
There are many core functions that are displayed on the different versions of diags. Most versions will display these core functions accurately..ie voltage, faults, MC temp etc. However, much of the other functionality is dependent on which version of SW (diag and firmware) you have and whether you have a Runke or ESD charger. Many of the functions you see in the diags were not fully implemented and/or not implemented at all. So take all that data with a grain of salt. The particular diag that you show in the pix is a post ESD diag. That is, much of the stuff will only display for the Runke chargers.

X Vectrix
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 05:20
Points: 298
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Kocho
There are many core functions that are displayed on the different versions of diags. Most versions will display these core functions accurately..ie voltage, faults, MC temp etc. However, much of the other functionality is dependent on which version of SW (diag and firmware) you have and whether you have a Runke or ESD charger. Many of the functions you see in the diags were not fully implemented and/or not implemented at all. So take all that data with a grain of salt. The particular diag that you show in the pix is a post ESD diag. That is, much of the stuff will only display for the Runke chargers.

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hi Kocho,

One Last Try.

First. The modified software is designed such that it charges the battery according to fundamental principles. That is, in any good battery the voltage rises in a particular way/pattern when the battery is being charged and the modified software caters for this.

Fact. If the battery being charged is not behaving normally, then the battery is at fault or is damaged or is old and decayed or broken.

Second. Forcing extra current into any battery is a dumb idea.

Fact. a battery is designed to 'hold' a fixed amount of charge. Extra current is extra charge. Just how do you get a quart into a pint pot? Answer = you don't so something has to give/fail.
The modified software will not put 'extra' charge into the battery. When the true (not the nominal) capacity of the battery is full then the charge stops and the bars give a good indication of the battery's capacity. i.e. 8 bars at end of charge indicates a half capacity battery.

Third. I have suggested that the best way to establish the state of your battery is to dismantle it and test some (or all) of the individual cells.

Fact. You have not done this or if you have, then you have not told anyone.

Fourth. Einstein is quoted as saying "that doing the same thing and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity"

Fact. You are doing the same thing. You are asking the same questions of many people and expecting a different answer. You have been told what to do, You have been told that your battery is behaving in a way indicative of a fault, but you don't wish to believe it, so you continue asking the same old questions.

Fact. I have told you all of this on previous occasions. Either you don't believe me or you simply don't like what I have told you. It doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not, and it doesn't matter whether or not you like what I have told you. The fact is that all of the information which you have given indicates a faulty battery.

Finally, I suggest that, When you have dismantled your battery, When you have established the condition of the cells, When you can show the condition of every cell, THEN and ONLY THEN should you come back to the forum and explain your case.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. So, get that battery dismantled, test the cells and kindly tell us all, via this forum, what you have found.

Incidentally, the diags version 2.0 is the compatible software for the Modified software and the 114b Motor controller, However the 2.1 (which arrived to match the later BC 3001 and MC 1017 softwares) has some useful extra facilities (which is why we use it), and although it will 'set' the fuel gauge it does not read the gauge correctly and NO, I don't know why that is the case.

I am looking forward to reading of your test results. I imagine many others will also find it interesting.

Over and Out.

The Laird.
Still telling it like it is and pulling no punches.

Archi13
Archi13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 month ago
Joined: Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 14:31
Points: 54
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho,
It's very important that you use a good revision of programs for Mc and Charger, if you mix and match the programs for charger and MC, It's normal that you have some things that it don't working very good. Every MC Program need for Matching one revision of Charger program for. And after that, perhaps the fuel gauge work correctly.

Be careful, some times, when you install and mix the program, you can freeze your MC board. And after that, your can loose more than you win.

Archi13

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Archi, thank you for the advise! I have matching versions installed - I want to eliminate potential issues due to mismatched versions and to be able to directly compare how my two bikes behave (both are identically configured).

The Laird asked where are the measurements taken and what is the PF. The Kill A Watt that measures the power/amps is plugged into an extension cord which is plugged in the wall outlet. The bike is plugged in the Kill A Watt, so the measurements are taken "at the wall" so to speak (the extension cord is short and rated at 15A so it has very little added resistance compared to if the bike was plugged in the wal directly). The PF is 0.99 during CP stage and dropped 1% to 0.98-0.97 in the CC stage.

Kocho
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Friday, March 21, 2014 - 21:05
Points: 488
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

The modified software will not put 'extra' charge into the battery. When the true (not the nominal) capacity of the battery is full then the charge stops and the bars give a good indication of the battery's capacity. i.e. 8 bars at end of charge indicates a half capacity battery.

Let me try again. The reason I keep asking is simple and does not break Einstein's principle of lunacy ;) - I have not heard a convincing logical explanation yet, which is supported by facts that are related to the explanation.

When charging from empty, the battery is not reaching the target voltage in the time allowed for the CC and EC stages to complete. Why do you conclude that means the software thinks the capacity has been reached? Maybe I don't understand your reasoning, but my thinking is that this means the charge times out rather than end due to reaching voltage limits. Wouldn't you agree? If so, then the battery capacity is NOT reached within a normal charging cycle starting from empty.

The only time I have seen the charge process exit due to reaching the voltage limit rather than time out is when I start the charge with a battery that is about half full or better. If the software knows the actual capacity of the battery, as you suggest, then wouldn't it stop charging at approximately the same charge level as it does when starting from empty? Why doesn't it do that, but instead exit due to reaching the target voltage (and in the process fill-up the bars fully)?

Looking at the data sheet for the cells, it appears 145-146V is indeed where they get filled to about 80-90% capacity. The issue I have is that to reach this voltage I either need to start a charge from a half-full battery or run two cycles back to back. So, for some reason, a single charge supplies less than the battery can store, mainly because the CP stage ends so quickly. NiMh cells are only a bit over 60% efficient at charging (at 20C). There are also probably 15% losses in the charger. So if I measure 2.5KWh consumed during charging, this means the battery gets less than 2KWh in it. How is this fully charged? If it was fully charged, I would observe slight temperature rise at the end of the charging process - but there isn't any. Is it because the fans dissipate all the heat or is it because the cells never get full, so they don't heat up in the first place? Ambient temp is about 23C and the cells are about that temperature too, perhaps a degree or two higher but constant from the first minute of charging to the last. All banks are the same temp, no outliers.

So what do you say?

Edit: if I have a few really bad cells that don't charge well, the battery would not reach and keep the target voltage. It would also heat-up unevenly during charge and use. I don't observe that: no heating and the battery holds voltage well after charge and in use... Also, believe it or not, what you say does make sense to me for the most part; however, I don't think it explains the situation.

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Hello Kocho,

I see that you are back already!
.
.
Presumably you have now dismantled the battery and checked and tested the cells? Fast work, I congratulate you on the speed of your actions.
.
.

How are those cells? Any bulges or do they all look perfect? On the test charge /discharge cycles, how did they perform and what capacity do they demonstrate?
.
.

Quote from your latest post:-

"Also, believe it or not, what you say does make sense to me for the most part;" Unquote.
.
.

Kocho, it is the part that you don't understand that is your problem. All of my explanation is based on knowledge and logic.

Your posts are based on your total failure to carry out a logical sensible fault location process.
.
.

Your continued tirade DOES indicate your compliance with the 'Einstein theory on insanity'.
.

I don't believe that anyone on this forum can help you further but they are welcome to try.
.

My sympathies and best wishes are extended to you,
.

The Laird

Sadly, Telling it just like it is.

The Laird
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 00:47
Points: 275
Re: New VX-1 Charging Question

Double post. Sorry

Pages

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There are currently 0 users online.

Who's new

  • Skyhawk 57
  • wild4
  • justinsmith07
  • Juli76
  • xovacharging

Support V is for Voltage