Main fuse?

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Peter Faulkner
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Main fuse?

Just got delivery of my 12K Miles 2008 Vectrix, it is in superb condition BUT All the functions, lights indicators, horn etc appear to work fine, nly thing that is not working is the glove box electric "pop" opener and sadly NO Drive despite the GO on the display.!!! When I try throttle reverse, the R reverse indicator drive lamp lights up!! It is showing about 42 on the speedo when charging but never any bars or range mileage. It was running until very recently, I am thinking blown main fuse or some heavy power cable termination corrosion. any suggestions?

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

its a Doorstop!
I hear no fans when charger plugged in.
No drive, no range, no charge bars.
I have all dash display including tell tale dash lamps tremouring/flickering.

Time to get back to basics. Is there any diagnostic software I can run, if so, how can I open the glove box to access the CAN connector?... key won't operate unlock popper!!

I am definitely going Li, so as to ripping it apart, now is the time to do it all.

Thanks for all help so far.

Peter

Mik
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi Peter,

it's definitively not a failed main fuse.

The glove box is not electrical, it's operated by a cable. A wiggle and a jangle and a drop of oil in the right place might get it going. Push down and turn the "Ignition" key to the left to open the glove box. I'd try whacking it a couple of times while turning the key. However, I doubt that opening the glove box will help you much at this stage, because I would NOT plug the USB to Can adapter into a scooter with all lights flashing. That can only make it worse at this stage.

Try this: Disconnect the 2 connectors to the charger underneath the front fairing for a minute or so, then reconnect them. That might reset the charger and fix your problem, but only maybe.

Surely others will chime in soon with better ideas about what is causing the weird behaviours of your Vectrix, so be patient and don't do anything silly before getting some explanations and advice.

Question: Do the displays etc turn off when you turn the key off?

Good luck, Mik

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

If it was the main fuse, you wouldn't get anything at all with just the ignition on (i.e. not plugged in) as there is no auxiliary battery on the V. Evrything would be completely dead.

I'd hazard a guess that the charger is dead. Do you know which one it has? If it is an original 'ESD' charger, it may have died 'in the usual way' - pants design on several different fronts. A new 'Runke' one will set you back several (5?) hundred pounds but you might be able to pick up a used (or used ESD) one for less.

As to getting the glove box open, someone else had this problem a few months back. Suggest you search the VIFV forum for their post and - hopefully - a fix. At worst, you'll have to disassemble the front fairing to get to the back of the locking mechanism (it uses a Bowden cable from key to lock) to manually release the door and lubricate the mechanism - I'm pretty sure that's all that was wrong with the last one. You have to take the (left - o/s) fairing(s) off to get at the charger anyway…

You really need the scooter diagnostic program and the PEAK CANbus cable to 'interrogate' the bike. Not sure it'll help if the charger is u/s. But you'll definitely need them if you change the charger as the motor controller and (new) charger firmwares will both need updating if you get a Runke.

Ah... ' … going Li…' Thought that was some sort of Asian mental health issue. Lithium upgrade… Well, if you are going down *that* route and the charger *is* snafu than you might consider replacing the charger with a non-vectrix one which will (with a competent BMS and/or CycleAnalyst (CA) installation) make the best of your Li cells as you won't be stuck with the 30Ah charge limit that the standard V chargers impose, BUT you will lose some of your stock instrumentation - which is where the CA comes in. I did a Li upgrade with Sinopoly 40aH cells a while back and have been kicking myself ever since not using the LEAF modules instead. Cheaper AND 65aH instead of 40. Someone has done a write up here on VIFV on that, too.

Good luck! MW

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Mik/Martin

Thanks guys

Will strip down front fairing on Sunday, just heading off to a wedding until Sat eve. Have made a start on stripping down the battery covers and will get details of all components MC, Charger type etc. Will disconnect wires as advised and not connect CAN until more stable situation obtains!! I need the cable to PC for this which I do not yet have.

I will also need a couple of versions of ScooterDiag and some new firmware.. any PMs/Links much appreciated.

I definitely going for a LEAF conversion, so will probably need a new charger anyway!! :)

Thanks again

Peter

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi

Can anyone help or provide download links or files for the scooterDiag ?

Thank you

Peter

peter[at}faulknerafm[dot]com

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

I have a Silver charger and it has obviously been opened before, lots of silicone oozing from cover flange : 1 x 3 pin connector, 1 x 4 pin connector and a multiplug.. now all disconnected What should I try next? :)

photo 1(2).JPGphoto 2(3).JPG

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Reconnected every thing and it is completely dead, charger connected or disconnected (ign key on!!) I have a multimeter but no scooterdiag software ;( I now know I have the ESD charger,
a) what voltage should I see at the charger output connector (open circuit).
b) are there any tests I can do on the MC.

Any advice much appreciated.

My Leaf cells are bought and should be here by the end of the week!

Thanks

Peter

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Continued strip down and now have the Battery packs exposed. 42V across terminals to MC.... no idea where to go next!!! :(

Distraught Dublin!!

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi Peter,

Plugging the charger in to the mains with the battery pack disconnected is - not good!

That said, sounds like it's cooked anyway. The 'oozing' sealant is standard in my experience! It looks like they got so far with developing the ESD charger and just rushed it to get the thing done.

The question is whether there is any continuity between the charger plug pins (live and neutral) - with the mains connector plugged into the charger - obviously. If you find the mains plug fuse has blown (UK only, folks!) it a fair bet the charger has failed but try a continuity test with your ohmmeter across the L & N in the plug (i.e. excluding the plug fuse). So to be clear, you are looking for resistance from, say, the neutral pin in the mains plug, down the cable to the charge connector, through that into the charger circuitry, back out of the charger and back to the Live pin on the mains plug. From memory there should be some sort of resistance rather than 'open circuit'.

When my ESD charger failed, the inrush current limiter blew. I have just looked at it again and found the following…

If you look into the (disconnected) 2 square connectors on the ESD charger, the one with 4 pins in the mains connection - the other is the battery connection. The pins are numbered 1, 2 & 4. The un-numbered pin is an earth connection (to the charger case). It is difficult to be sure as I have no charger lead side of the square connector to check (and the Vectrix service manual doesn't help) but it looks like Pin 4 is the neutral connection and either one of pin 1 or 2 is the live, depending on whether you are using 120 or 240V. As I say, use your ohmmeter to see which of the female conductors (i.e. on the mains plug side) of the square charger connector are connected to live and neutral in the mains plug. Then you will know which MALE pins on the charger connector to test across for resistance.

Anyway, the only connection in my blown ESD charger that gets anything other than open circuit is between (male) pins 1 and 2 on the charger side square connector and that slowly settles to about 5.5Megohms - obviously charging a capacitor somewhere. If yours behaves the same then you almost certainly have a blown charger.

I see you have posted again since I started this reply… It is no surprise that the pack voltage is only 42V. It has obviously been siting without charging for some time leaking power. The NiMH pack is probably still OK - or, at least 1/2 ok, but you would need to charge it gently to bring it back up… Ah!… I wonder if this is your only problem? As you may know, if the pack volts drops too low then the charger won't start when you plug it in…

Well, first check the mains plug fuse and see what's what there. If that's ok, do the tests above on the charger mains connector. If you get a different situation to mine then it maybe you just need to bring your pack voltage up so the (actually OK) charger can take over.

Let us know! MW

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Thanks Martin.

I did not disconnect the battery at all, yet!! just exposed them!

Plug fuse is Ok. There are two round cable adapters one with 4 pins and one with 3, I assume one is feeding the charger and the other is going to the battery Middle lower in pic.

photo(1).JPG

Ireland same voltage as UK.

I will have a go at identifying the mains feed pins and the battery charge pins and revert

Thanks again

Peter

elevatorguy
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Re: Main fuse?

42 volts at MC is not enough to start the charger or the bike, you need to externally charge the battery to about 90-100 volts so the charger will turn on. Low voltage may have caused erratic display as well.

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Ok 230V between live and neutral and live and earth on supply side of plug at charger

Resistance test: No readings for any pin combination between mains in - battery out pins,

No readings between any two battery out pins.

I can only assume the charger is indeed Donald Ducked!!

P:(

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

any ideas for a cheap way to get the voltage up?

Thanks

Peter

as my Li cells are on the way, all I really want to do is make sure the charger and MC are OK as it has never run in my possession !! so all suggestions welcome.

Soyouz
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi Peter,

You can use a RC charger or a lead battery charger and charge 10 cells pack one after the other.

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

The Laird is sending me the scooterdiag software etc today, Thanks Sandy. Does anyone know if it can diagnose any issues with the Charger and MC with a "dead" bike. All connected and turned on but 42 volt DEAD!

Thanks

Peter

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi Peter,

If you are definitely going to upgrade your pack then you'll need a charger sooner or later so you might as well get one now. The options as I understand them are: 1/ Get your ESD repaired. It has been done apparently though I don't know at what cost. I'd try Fuel Free Motors in Portugal - fuelfreemotos [at] gmail.com. EFS in the UK (the old official V dealer) might have a new one still but it'll be the new Runke version which, whilst much more reliable than the ESD, isn't compatible with the Lairds firmware and his is the only one (I believe - best cheek with him first) that can do a higher Ah charge suitable for the pack upgrade.

2/ Someone might have an un-used, working ESD charger out there so ask around.

3/ Buy a non-Vectrix charger such as the Elcon 1500W (or 2000W) 153.3v 10A (or 15A) charger which can be bought direct from China (http://www.tccharger.com/english/Product/T35/47.html) for around £300 (apparently). This will get around the 30Ah limitation the standard Vectrix 'BMS' imposes but you will lose some of your instrumentation - fuel gauge at least. A CycleAnalyst is often used to remedy the instrumentation. More money - maybe £150.

The only vaugely practical (IMO) way to get around the 30Ah charge limit with a Runke is to use the PEAK cable and scooterdiag software to reset the standard Vectrix chargers 'fuel gauge' to zero after it first charges the bike to what it thinks is full (either 153(?)V or when it thinks the batteries have reached 30Ah-worth of fullness). Obviously, it'll always be the latter with a bigger pack in the bike. By reseting the fuel gauge to zero, the bike thinks it's empty so it'll happily allow charging again. The second time around it might hit the voltage limit first depending on how big the cells are), and so forth. A real pain, to be sure. I made it a bit easier by installing a very small XP PC in the bike that I can access via wifi. The PEAK cable is left permanently connected, so at least I can do all this ridiculous nonsense remotely.

Hope that helps (probably not!). MW

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Kocho
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Re: Main fuse?

I think the bike needs to "boot" to be able to properly connect and diagnose with the ScooterDiag, because it needs to communicate with the CAN bus on the bike. EDIT: meaning if the charger won't start charging due to the low battery voltage, I am not sure if it will "boot" (i.e., start its communications electronics) in order to communicate with the CANBus adapter. But I may be wrong and while it might not be willing to charge at such low voltage it might be willing to talk about it with your software :)

As said, see if you can charge the battery up to about 100 volts first. There were some threads here on how to do it and as mentioned in this thread, you can partition the battery into smaller chunks. The charger to do this pre-charge does not need to be powerful - it will just take more time. You can use several cheap chargers in series to get a 100V or so charging voltage. Say 4x20V chargers, 2x48V, 3x36V, etc. I'm sure you can find these cheap on eBay or craigslist. Or if you are lucky to have someone with a working bike nearby, they maybe willing to unplug their charger temporarily to charge yours...

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

Kocho - Pretty sure you are right. scooterdiag will only work when the bike is 'on' i.e. via the ignition switch or when charging. MW

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Thanks very much guys.

I have had software and a specific sequence of instructions from The Laird. I will follow his to the letter but I do appreciate all the input so far and I am sure to be back with more requests for help.

Thanks again

Peter

Peter Faulkner
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Re: Main fuse?

Thanks very much guys.

I have had software and a specific sequence of instructions from The Laird. I will follow his to the letter but I do appreciate all the input so far and I am sure to be back with more requests for help.

Thanks again

Peter

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi Peter,

Bearing mind our objectives here:-

1/ Raise the NiMH pack to a high enough voltage to see if the charger really is foofed…

2/ Connect the vaguely charged pack to the bike to see if the controller etc is functional (DON'T FORGET TO USE THE CURRENT INRUSH LIMITER WHEN RE-CONNECTING THE PACK TO THE CONTROLLER - use that same incandescent light bulb -see later)…

Re charging the pack up to 100V or so… I don't know what your electronics knowledge/experience is like but you can achieve this using what is known as a 'Bad Boy' charger. Essentially this is taking the raw mains 240VAC, cleaning it up a bit with some very cheap components and attaching it to your pack! Sounds dreadful but for the nominal ~130V pack we are looking at it should work quite acceptably. You can read more about the general idea here… http://www.evalbum.com/tech/bonn_charger.html

The simplest arrangement is to use a bridge rectifier (off ebay <£3 e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KBPC1010-SB107-Graetz-Bridge-Rectifier-Diodes-10A-1KV-/170680334380?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Su... or you could make your own with 4 reasonably powerful diodes) or out of an old car battery charger, anything really, and put the NiMH (*thoroughly* disconnected) pack in series with:- 1/ a 240V *incandescent* light bulb (to limit the current), 2/ the output of the bridge rectifier and 3/ an ammeter set to the 10A scale to monitor the current. You would also need to motor the pack voltage as it charges with either a second multimeter or, once you have check the current flowing is OK (anything around the 0.5A mark should do it) remove the ammeter from the circuit and use it instead (obviously, reset to read volts).

Please note - I have not tried this myself! - so don't blame me if you burn your house down. It is clearly, potentially VERY dangerous to tinker in this way with mains power. Please also consider small children and animals. If you leave this setup alone it MUST be in a locked garage, cupboard etc!

The other danger is leaving such a device alone and 'getting on with something else'. Inevitably, you will forget about the thing and it'll end up ruining your cells or otherwise spoiling your day. So, be prepared to sit next to it for an hour - possibly a lot more, use a timer to keep reminding you to pop back and check the pack voltage (plotting it against time on a graph would allow you to extrapolate an approximate 100V 'charge complete' time), rig a cheap mechanical timer in series with the mains supply to stop it automatically (like you find on the side of food steamers etc - or use a plug-in electronic timer) or have some other system to ensure catastrophe does not materialise.

The bits won't cost more than about £10 - or nothing if you have as much junk lying around as I do! I might have some more detail on the bad boy circuit shortly. I'll let you know. Might even try it myself on my old V NiMH pack.

Just don't kill yourself. OK? MW

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

heathyoung
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Re: Main fuse?

You can run the bike's electrics up with three 48V power supplies in series, disconnect the battery and just hook it up to the MC terminals.

That's how I checked mine was working before faffing around with a lithium conversion - just to make the wheels turn in reverse (with the bike off the ground) is a few hundred watts. If you jack the bike up off the ground, and short out the connector for the kick stand, then you can get the wheels turning when its still on the stand - you just need some mm's of clearance off the ground.

Three Meanwell S-350 350W 48V clones work fine (or you can buy a few (4) 36V meanwell LED power supplies and string them in series, I use these for chargers - no fan, cheap and PFC correction).

Search fleabay for "350W 48V" - you should pick them up from china really cheaply.

martinwinlow
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Re: Main fuse?

Hi All,

The thought occurs… for a very cheap way of testing an otherwise apparently dead Vectrix to check at least the motor controller (MC), motor and instrumentation (i.e. every thing except the charger and battery) works, would it not be feasible to connect 14 x PP3 (9V) batteries in series to the MC (USING A SUITABLE IN-RUSH CURRENT LIMITER, of course) connections?

You'd have to raise the rear wheel off the ground… and maybe disconnect the head light or immediately switch it off using the correct magic sequence otherwise they would go flat too quickly perhaps… £20 max….!

(Perhaps I should create a new thread…)

Regards, Martin Winlow
Isle of Colonsay, Scotland
evalbum.com/2092

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